Vallu751

Join Date 05/2003

+14

Command limit vs stack of doom

I've lately been wondering if a 'command limit' kind of thing would be beneficial for Elemental. By a command limit I guess I mean something similar to a stack limit.

Many strategy games have ways to limit the amount of stacked units. Some work better than others. Sword of the Stars uses command ships that have limits in how many active ships can be engaged at the same time. Disciples has a very definite limit to how many units can be with a hero. MoM had a stacking limit. Heroes of Might and Magic doesn't limit individual creatures, but does limit creature types. King's Bounty has a leadership attribute. First Master of Magic had the same limit as Heroes of Might and Magic. Galciv 2 has logistics, but no tactical combat.

I believe that a good limit improves gameplay. An example of a good limit is the Sword of the Stars model. In SotS, you can have a space empire that has several effective battle fleets at the same time. Stacking more ships is possible, but the power curve increase after the command limit is not very high - you just get a few extra command points and a reserve force to reinforce if you lose ships. The feel of the game is much better than it would be with every empire creating a single stack of doom for a massive slugfest.

Elemental originally wanted to go for huge semi-realtime battles. As this didn't happen, I think we should work with what we have. In fact, I think the roles of heroes and the sovereign should be made more pronounced as leaders of armies in the late game.

It's probably too late to create a 'command point' style of system for the game. But maybe we could introduce leadership abilities for the champions beyond the "+1 move for the stack" of the adventurer trait? Something that could be increased with experience. And only one champion would lead a stack - the one with the best leadership naturally. And perhaps having just a few units in a stack would increase their combat efficiency. They would be easier to lead and have better cohesion on the battlefield than a huge mob. This could also benefit the AI players, because they don't know how to stack as well as a human player.

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Alstein

Join Date 07/2004

+55

One thing I've continually suggested is the following, with logistics being a leader trait, modified by civ techs.

a) Logistics techs increase your logistics limit. Start at 4, +2 per level of logistics tech.

No more building multiple units, 1 unit, 1 person.

c) Certain units cost more then 1 point of logistics, such as monsters

d) Certain heroes get the commander special ability, which increases logistics for their stack

e) Only one stack per square

f) Cities add their 2*city level to logistics

g) Get rid of the 12 units/hex hard cap

h) Certain heroes get leadership special ability, which buffs stats for units they command

i) Heroes add Cha/5 to their logistics limit.

j) Heroes do not count against a stack limit, and hero charisma can be combined to add to a stack. (you can stack of doom if you have enough heroes, which may be needed to take high-level turtle cities outside of sieges- though encouraging sieging would be nice also)

This would make the game much more about ther heroes, which is what I'd want to emphasize. Cannon fodder units would still have use, especially in garrisoning.

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StevenAus22

Join Date 06/2010

+110

Hmm, sounds interesting.

Best regards,
Steven.

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Good stuff, Alstein.

Simple is good in my opinion. Maybe simply having a lower stack limit than now, and heroes adding Cha/5 to the limit?

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Vallu751 has a good idea I think. Perhaps we should not allow stacks without the presence of a hero to act as a general. the stack limit would be based somehow on charisma (better yet, make stack size a global variable editable in an XML file. that way some people can base it on intelligence or charisma or some combination).

if a bunch of units are all in the same square and they get attacked then the computer picks a unit at random (a unit being either a single unit or a stack of units lead by a hero).

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Umm... it's been a while since I've played, but isn't there a limit of 12 unit/unit formations already in the game? You really want to make the battles even smaller?

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StevenAus22

Join Date 06/2010

+110

I think the limit is 16.

Best regards,
Steven.

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I thought it was 11, but, who's counting? I made my suggestion because I like the idea of the NPCs being useful as leaders. just having some random group of ground pounders manage themselves is not usually a good idea. of course, nothing in the game does anyhting without your divine consent so...

also, I was thinking that stack size could be limited to Charisma/2 so at average level of 10 there would be 5 units. at 20 there would be 10. you can get an NPC up to 20 charisma after 3 levels which is not that bad if that is your thing.

there could even be new traits for NPCs that increase the unit stack size.

OR another idea is reduce the base stack size to 6, but, after doing some research with a new tech (lets call it leadership) you can then use an NPC to act as general which works like above. thus, at base 10 CHA you get 5 plus the base of 6 which is like what we have now. only now there is the potential of having an even bigger stack size when the NPC gets more charisma.

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LightofAbraxas has a valid point, I think. For me, the objective of thinking of a unit count limit was not to make battles smaller, but to limit a stack of doom approach. Make it possible for a faction to have several active armies, each fully capable. This instead of having the option of either a single full strength stack vs two half strength stacks.

That said, it's going to be interesting to see how the 1.3 changes with default squad size of 4 will affect the game.

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I See what you are saying. Example lets say a Cpt. (the first command unit to create) has a command of 4. So that means he can of only 4 unites/regiments with him. Were as a Gen. has a 8 command and your main hero has a command of 12. I think that is a great idea! And your units cant roam around out side your influence with out some sort of command. Makes it more tactical game-play imo. Also depending on your empire/kingdom lets you know how many Cpt. and Gen. your are aloud.

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