Tasunke

Join Date 10/2009

+45

A Better Game

marked improvement with 1.1

Patch 1.1 and so forth has shown a marked improvement to the game of Elemental.

Here are a few reasons why.

Repeatable buildings
Building maintenance
Population Taxes/ Taxable population
Non-Identical Magic Schools
Separating Accuracy and Damage

Now, of course Elemental is not a perfect game, and is still not the premier of its genre ... however, my initial revulsion has been lifted; thanks to these changes.

Am I still waiting for Elemental to get better? Yes. Do I find the majority of 1.1's changes an improvement? Yes.

I will leave it at that, although I'd like to see how many others see an improvement, and if so, do you think its a small improvement? or a large improvement? How many expansions do you think Elemental will have to undertake to become "playable" at your standards?

For me, I think it is a large improvement, yet not the majority of the work; only a milestone.

While I now think Elemental is "Okay" I'll wait for another 1-2 expansions minimum to seriously consider playing it as a hobby.

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I agree. I think it's a baby step towards being a great game. I'll play 1.1 a few times with mods, but I think that it will be the first expansion before I put any real time into it. These are a few things that I like:

Global mana
The moding options
The addition of a couple new stats to add some depth
I felt like I had more than this... but when trying to make a list, I can't really think of any.
The additional art assets

The things that I'd personally like to see before I truly enjoy this game. My top 20, although there are probably at least twice this many:

More modding options
Some compelling ambience
Better pacing. I feel like there hasn't been any serious math analysis of how the math of the game fits together
A serious marriage between the the dynasty and diplomatic systems
Related to 2, some race differentiation
Spell schools with serious effects on gameplay options
More spells. Even with only 5 levels, the arcane research tree feels bare
Tactical combat depth. 1.1 was a step in the right direction with the addition of armor and the splitting of accuracy and damage. But, they don't feel like they model an imaginary real world in any way.
Related to to 1 and 4, more spell effects. Honestly, you can only do so much with a spell system that only effects health and stats
Gameplay mechanics that would make area X more valuable to colonize than area Y. I know that this is done with resources to some degree, but it's pretty flat compared to Civ4... rivers as natural borders, hills providing more significant defensive bonuses, etc.
An AI that can handle naval invasions and defense.
A more meaningful economy system
Balanced research trees
1. A meaningful Diplomacy tree
2. A meaninful Adventure tree
More quests... seriously, they get old.
A good random map generator
This has too many pies. What do I mean by this?
1. Civ4 for example uses gold for city maintenence, unit upkeep, and research
2. Elemental has completely different or nonexistent mechanics for all of these. Therefore, meaninful strategic focus is very hard to find
Some more sound assets. Come up with some fake languages for selection and order sound effects. Or use real languages- most people, including me, won't realize the difference. It matters more than you might think.
Mechanics on faction defeat need to be seriously reworked. Cities disappearing is lame beyond belief.
More and different types of resources.
Incentives for specializing Sovereigns. I think that a spell caster who has no incentive not to wear full plate just feels wrong.

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1.1 is a MASSIVE improvement over 1.09.

-It is stable enough to play for more than 20 minutes.

-There is enough of a "Magic" section that the game warrants having that in the title.

-The tac combat is less broken than it was.

-City building is less silly than it was.

That said, Elemental is still on the road to greatness in all three departments; Magic, City Building, and Tac Combat. It needs serious gameplay and balance help in all three areas, but the game is kinda fun to play right now, and the devs are showing active interest in making this the game that we were sold.

I, for one, am excited to be a part of that process, and excited to see this game really unfold and become the real spiritual successor to MoM that we have been waiting over a decade for.

@LoA; I agree that it feels like a lot of the pacing was set arbitrarily rather than according to consistent metrics, and that many of the aspects of the game were created in a vacuum rather than in context of one-another. I suspect we will see these things addressed shortly.

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Agree it's a better game, and also agree will wait for more patches/expansion before truly investing my time into the game. But these are what some of my wishlist items are:

Suggestions:

1) The Seasons introduced in 1.1 seems arbitrary, why not change the landscape during the seasons (for visual impact) or more importantly, tie-in with the 4 elements - Spring=Air, Summer=Fire, Autumn=Earth, Winter=Water and give tactical level/strategic bonuses accordingly (employing earth spell during autumn season also gives me a plusXXX bonus vs a guy using Fire spells at the same time). Faction with more shards obviously trumps others. Adds to the dimension of war: Exact force make-up, but when season works to my advantage, I'll Strike!!!

2) I think this was brought up before - Initiative system like HOMM4? Whoever's got the highest AP gets to attack 1st, makes sense and improves the tactical battle plays. Additionally, allow defenders to pre-postion their units in a tactical battle. Attackers get to position their units next without being able to see where the defenders are (I think it's something like Total War). Off course halfway mark is the furthest extent any unit can go. In war, terrain plays a great part, and this would definitely add some flavour to battles. I know, without being able to pick up his 'missing' unit, that he may be trying to ambush from those forests flanking the main body of his own troops. At least we as commanders got some say where to place our units as oppose to 1.1, not that inspiring.

a) We can also add to the scouts' repertoire besides having more sight on the strategic map, we can have them gathering intelligence and let us see some of the defenders units' position closer to the centre line before the battle (provided you have a scout unit with you). The higher his level, the more units he can pick up and more in-depth he can see. Additionally, you can also see enemy spellcasters' spells on the strategic/tactical maps, allowing you to prepare for what's coming.

3) The main screen showing the Champions and settlements on the left doesn't really work. I would rather the current 1.1 city list be improved like GalCiv2's showing all details, so at one glance I can compare the cities and eg. send my farmer to the place producing most food, not just number one resource. Another list for the units showing all their details and much like an excel sheet, allowing me to select eg. intelligence tab and will show the units with most intelligence to the least intelligence. Hitpoint tabs can also alert me to injured units needing aid. The location and destination of units in another column together with their tasks should also help at one glance. This would greatly help micromanagers in a big map with lots of cities and units.

4) Show a destination city for the caravans and units as well. Getting back to a game after some time, I can't remember where I wanted to send them and scouring for their 'destination cross' isn't user-friendly and economical. Additionally, please change the end destination color scheme apart from the factions own color in order to pick it up easily when at the cloth map or zoomed in.

5) Sovereigns' offsprings to indicate which year and season he'll mature for forward planning instead of us having to count it ourselves.

There are quite a few annoying stuff I experienced with 1.1 some cosmetics, some gameplay. Not really deal-breakers except for

Bugs'? I'm not too sure of some:

1) Under Train Unit screen, if name created for unit designed in the Info Card is too long, it overlaps the number of seasons required to train the unit.

2) Champion Ayen Witela double spawned, not as bad as some guys who got an army of Janusk.

3) Faction Power window changes all factions power rating (or almost doubles) every now and then. Eg. during a turn my faction showing 128, Resoln 24. Next turn, mine's showing 60+ and 12 for Resoln's.

4) Faction Power window overlaps events updates pop-ups.

5) Foreign Relations Window, under the foreign policy, even when factions were destroyed, they are still showing up.

6) Am at war with Altar, however, their Relations With Us still shows: 'No Relationship Info'.

7) I lose a movement point everytime I reload a game whilst still having movement points remaining with my sovereign. 3/3 movement points- quicksave-reload quicksave game-2/3 movement points remaining.

8) After winning over a settlement, the influence of the previous faction remains, have to end turn or reload a quicksave game from this point to get my own faction's influence in order to start building, training, casting spells (eg. lower land) within this sphere of influence.

9) Health bar on the Units icon on the left edge of the main game screen does not tally with the same unit's Vitals tab. Unit: 23/23, bar on the left shows 2/3 full only.

10) After researching movement, no point increase for units. v1.09 no problem, but for v1.1 1st time experiencing this.

11) Confirm we still cannot see the settlement's details when it upgrades a level as it's block by the upgrade window? I thought this was going to be fixed?

Other than all these to get off my chest, I would like to thank Brad and company for their hardwork in v1.1. And also wishing everyone else a Great X'mas and a very Happy New Year!!!

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Massively better? Better, but not massively, just a horse of a different color really.

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It's significantly better. It's the first time I've wanted (or been able) to play a game through to completion. The UI really needs to be overhauled in the next patch.

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It is better to the degree in which you think it's better.

For me, the game will improve in a major way when they realize that champions are currently boring and indistinctive, and when they individualize them, give them better names, unique abilities, special appearances, and for the love of God, give the magic users their own mana pools of varying size and regeneration rates. Differentiate them and make them useful in their own right, not by leaching off your sovereign!

I want to feel like my champions are famous and have a reputation of being great warriors or magic users, even before they came my way. It would also be interesting if some champions were sometimes a threat until hired. They might band with other monsters or NPCs, or even with other champions and cause problems, like completing your quests before you do, thereby denying you the prize. Or taking the goodies from goody huts before you can. Other times, they might attack the monsters and NPCs around the map, which could be good or bad. Good if they were a nuisance or real threat, bad if you needed the XP.

Unit combat abilities are on the way, so that will be great. Magic is still being expanded as part of patch and expansion works. Diplomacy is definitely on Brad's mind. AI now has a dedicated designer, so that will continue to improve, especially with the help of the community. Updated modding tools are probably going to be one of the last things to come across, though that's not for sure because someone experienced has been hired to take care of that (do we know who it is yet?).

Lore is apparently going to find its way in somewhat more. Performance and stability are continuously being improved, again with the help of the community.

In short, this game looks right on track and set to become one of the best 4x TBS fantasy games since MoM. Just keep the ideas and suggestions coming.

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Its a big step in the right direction, but they are not there (a great game) yet. If they keep moving in the right direction they will get there. My guess is that this game will be great next fall.

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Quoting Lord Xia,

reply 4

Massively better? Better, but not massively, just a horse of a different color really.

Good analogy if you considered previously it was a mule. ...Did I say that right?

Quoting Istari,

reply 6

...It would also be interesting if some champions were sometimes a threat until hired. They might band with other monsters or NPCs, or even with other champions and cause problems, like completing your quests before you do, thereby denying you the prize...

I have seen this, they were labeled as Tyrants. Unfortunately, I don't recall them having a recruit option. And not sure about the completing quests thing, but I have seen other facion's champions moving towards level 3 and level 4 quest sites when there was no other reason for them to be around. I had a horse so I got there first of course.

The one thing that really got to me was the AI city spamming. Drives me bananas. I conquer them, but unable to raze or completely demolish cities that really have no use, but are keeping other cities from expanding. I suppose after a city gets past a certain level even completing the tech to 'fortify' and 'raze' it is no longer useful. I refuse all non-aggresion pacts because the one time I accepted, swarms of pioneers invaded my lands and set a city on any wild land they could find....so I had one smack middle in my cities where I just quite didn't have the influence yet. I erased that game with a vengance.

I don't have a suggestion for that except maybe forcing AI to have a bigger handicap with placing cities. Also, I do agree this game has improved and makes me feel that it is money well spent when the developers actually act with surprising haste to improve it. It does have quite a ways to go, but I'm sure with their dedication, they will get it there. Fan of Stardock since Sins of a Solar Empire public launch.

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It is a good sign when everyone agrees it's better but the discussion is instead about how much better 1.1 is over 1.09...

I concur, it is better and a real game now. Merry Christmas SD and Brad! (ps. Thanks for getting 1.1 to our HDD before Christmas)

My new year's wish is to make WoM much better than it is now.

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Quoting Istari,

reply 6

It is better to the degree in which you think it's better.

For me, the game will improve in a major way when they realize that champions are currently boring and indistinctive, and when they individualize them, give them better names, unique abilities, special appearances, and for the love of God, give the magic users their own mana pools of varying size and regeneration rates. Differentiate them and make them useful in their own right, not by leaching off your sovereign!

I want to feel like my champions are famous and have a reputation of being great warriors or magic users, even before they came my way. It would also be interesting if some champions were sometimes a threat until hired. They might band with other monsters or NPCs, or even with other champions and cause problems, like completing your quests before you do, thereby denying you the prize. Or taking the goodies from goody huts before you can. Other times, they might attack the monsters and NPCs around the map, which could be good or bad. Good if they were a nuisance or real threat, bad if you needed the XP.

Unit combat abilities are on the way, so that will be great. Magic is still being expanded as part of patch and expansion works. Diplomacy is definitely on Brad's mind. AI now has a dedicated designer, so that will continue to improve, especially with the help of the community. Updated modding tools are probably going to be one of the last things to come across, though that's not for sure because someone experienced has been hired to take care of that (do we know who it is yet?).

Lore is apparently going to find its way in somewhat more. Performance and stability are continuously being improved, again with the help of the community.

In short, this game looks right on track and set to become one of the best 4x TBS fantasy games since MoM. Just keep the ideas and suggestions coming.

I'll agree (among other things) that I'd like Champions to have their own mana pools .... imho its just cooler that way. But alas, global mana pools seem to be "in-style" ...

why not just keep the current system but have "magical champions" have their own starting mana pools (separate from the Global Pool)

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Yes, having separate UnitCombats (and/or Classes) would be nice (at least for Champions) .... and having Skill Trees associated with each unit-combat.

just a thought

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