Archer balancing » Forum Post by nOObonian

You obviously are not playing 1.08b

My archers/catapults could have an attack rating of 1,000 and the combat report would still look like - MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS

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There was a hotfix that fixed that.

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I think the problem is that archers always do max damage now for some reason.

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Quoting ,

quoting post

Archers are extremely powerful in early game, some say they are overpowered. I wouldn't go that far, but I do think they need some balancing.

Logic...

Overpowered/Underpowered = unbalanced

How can something need balancing if it is not over/underpowered? (rhetorical Q)

I do agree with the rest of the post however...

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If archers really do max damage now then they simply messed up the XML again.
How hard can it be to get those two lines right? =P

Bows losing ground in the mid/late game is normal because armor values steadily grow but there is never ever a better bow.

There could be a crossbow. Warbows or the oft-quoted englich longbow had a pull in the vicinity of 150 lbs.

Military crossbows were more in the 200-400 lbs range but exceptional examples went over 1000 lbs.
No real difference to getting hit with a high caliber rifle bullet.

Bows easily had 4-10 times the rate of fire, though.

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The real key here, in my opinion, is the setup of the battlefield and the range of weapons and spells.

In most battles, the attacker can begin slaughtering the defender on the first turn. The defender can't organize their units or do anything else.

Picture a game like Total War...you have the all important maneuvers before battle is joined. That phase of battle is often what decided real battles. In Elemental, we don't have that and it really hurts the tactics possible and makes the attacker's missiles and spells MUCH more effective.

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In real life archer units were deadly. But the attacks were counterable by a properly trained and equipped foe;

May I suggest,

a. A selectable unit action - "Arrow Shield" = (+2 Armor vs arrow attacks & -1 movement; only for trained shield equipped units) . This would reflect trained soldiers holding their shields high to deflect arrow attacks.

b. Air Spell - Wind Gusts - strong winds increase miss chance of arrow attacks on the battlefield for 3 turns.

c. A selectable unit action - "Charge" = (+2 movement, usable once per battle; only for trained units). This would allow units to charge archer units (or other enemy units), closing with them quickly.

d. Water Spell - Rain Storm - A sudden downpour reduces the attack range (and if possible line of sight) of all attacks and spells to 2 tiles.

e. Arrow units cannot target a unit if there is an intervening tree or wall tile in their line of sight.

+1

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All they really need to do is balance the attack of bows a bit like they did with other weapons. Short bows = 2 atk, long bow = 3 atk, then add a couple of better bows that eventually reaches and perhaps even bypass the strength of the current bows. Thus, you could still have bows from the getgo for archery factions, but it won't be nearly as op, and you'd still be able to use them later if that's how you like to play the game, you just need to research that path.

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Quoting Kalin,

reply 8

All they really need to do is balance the attack of bows a bit like they did with other weapons. Short bows = 2 atk, long bow = 3 atk, then add a couple of better bows that eventually reaches and perhaps even bypass the strength of the current bows. Thus, you could still have bows from the getgo for archery factions, but it won't be nearly as op, and you'd still be able to use them later if that's how you like to play the game, you just need to research that path.

great idea!

was kinda strange, when I built my faction with archery, after having about 20 melee weapons I was still using the first longbow... and it was still REALLY deadly.

also limited ammo would make sense, I remember MoM, where most archer units were just useless, but in Elemental archers just kill everything, everywhere, everytime.

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Quoting Kalin,

reply 8

All they really need to do is balance the attack of bows a bit like they did with other weapons. Short bows = 2 atk, long bow = 3 atk, then add a couple of better bows that eventually reaches and perhaps even bypass the strength of the current bows. Thus, you could still have bows from the getgo for archery factions, but it won't be nearly as op, and you'd still be able to use them later if that's how you like to play the game, you just need to research that path.

Yes, later you could have bows made of a better wood and later still magic bows. I have been wondering why that is not in place already.

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In late game there are a few things that can be done to make bows better. In the unit design you can select a magic Amulet +2 attack and Ring +1 Attack if you have the magic research for magic items and the crystals available for the items when training the troops this effectively give you the ability to have better bows.

Well it did in patch 1.07, not exactly sure how the combat mechanics differ now.

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I think the biggest problem with bows is that they come too early in the tech tree, before there are any credible opponents that can actually survive a single volley (overpowered summons notwithstanding). Even sovereigns and champions are no match for archers if they get first strike. The point that archers have a first-strike issue is one I agree with, but I think the biggest issue is that the melee units that are of similar power appear much later in the game.

Bows require only three researches to unlock, and the best bows require only four. The first half-decent armor requires a whopping 5 researches to unlock. Swarms of low-level units are simply non-viable for a variety of reasons, so this leaves you with literally no recourse against archers for a substantial stretch of the early-game. Part of the problem is that the first armor level is utterly insufficient. It would probably work fine if hit points were higher, but a good 50% of the time you're still getting 1-shotted when wearing padded armor, so why even bother with the stuff?

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Quoting Darvin3,

reply 12

I think the biggest problem with bows is that they come too early in the tech tree, before there are any credible opponents that can actually survive a single volley (overpowered summons notwithstanding). Even sovereigns and champions are no match for archers if they get first strike. The point that archers have a first-strike issue is one I agree with, but I think the biggest issue is that the melee units that are of similar power appear much later in the game.

Bows require only three researches to unlock, and the best bows require only four. The first half-decent armor requires a whopping 5 researches to unlock. Swarms of low-level units are simply non-viable for a variety of reasons, so this leaves you with literally no recourse against archers for a substantial stretch of the early-game. Part of the problem is that the first armor level is utterly insufficient. It would probably work fine if hit points were higher, but a good 50% of the time you're still getting 1-shotted when wearing padded armor, so why even bother with the stuff?

too early... well I think they are too powerful, cause a bow is a quite a basic weapon. In nearly any other game bows are only good in inflicting damage, but not killing, yet in EWOM they are a like a chainsaw. Something in between would be nice.

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Agreed that bow damage is a bit much compared to hitpoints, armor, etc. Bows SHOULD be deadly, but they shouldn't be as deadly as they are now. Stardock has been playing with the balance since beta, and I'm sure they will continue to do so.

In addition the problems I mentioned with range, battlefield placement, attack first strike, etc...there are a few other issues. The tactical combat is very simple and doesn't allow for a more detailed handling of archery, which places the advantage in the hands of the archer since there aren't many factors that limit bows.

1) Bows can be fired through anyone with no issue, including 'into combat.'

2) Range doesn't effect accuracy so point blank is the same as medium distance is the same as extreme distance.

3) Combat speed is very nasty. A basic archer can fire twice a turn, turning simple bows into rapid fire machine guns.

Since we don't have a detailed system that can limit ranged attacks based on realistic factors, I think ranged attacks should be toned down to compensate.

I'm currently working on changing the weapons around for the mod I am working on, and adding new weapons. I plan to make ranges, attack power, combat speed, and other factors a bit more fair. I want ranged attacks, in the right hands, to be really nasty. Historically, archery was a major part of many eras of warfare in many cultures. Longbows dominated English warfare for a time, and massed crossbows were employed to great effect from Europe to China. Ranged attacks should be powerful and a viable choice. However, they shouldn't be unstoppable.

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Quoting Darvin3,

reply 12

I think the biggest problem with bows is that they come too early in the tech tree, before there are any credible opponents that can actually survive a single volley (overpowered summons notwithstanding). Even sovereigns and champions are no match for archers if they get first strike.

That only really applies to parties of archers, and to be fair the same can be said of a party of club wielders unless you've managed to armour your sovereign.

Some kind of range limitation would probably work best, whether that's decreasing the damage/hit chance over range or simply hard limiting the bows (3 squares for shortbows and four for long?). Would also stop kiting with horsebowmen.

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