red1939

Join Date 02/2006

+16

No rummage system for elite resources

The title says all. While I understand why rummage system is good, and how it helps a player train his units and manage the resources (basically he doesn't have to think about them), but giving an advantage of elite resources to every player is in my opinion a bad decision. Sure, let the iron, copper, mana crystals, woods etc. be available in the rummage system (in greater or smaller amounts), but for god sake - please don't allow EVERY resource to be obtainable this way.

It was said that the elite resources will have really low rummage ratio (RR), namely 0.05 point per day (for, let's say, a dragon heart). If the rummage value is so low, why even to allow training of troops who require elite resources? To balance things out? I think you are already behind, if you can't lay your hands on some elite resources, so providing LITTLE help doesn't help at all. So, I don't see any particular reason to include all resources in the rummage system, and the downside is that resources feel ... meaningless. Sure, there is a free market (or something similar), and the goods are spread, but do you expect that elite resources would be available so easily, even in small amounts?

I just feel that adding rummage system makes the resources so unimportant, and the game gets even simpler. If Stardock doesn't like the hardcore resource system, than implement some kind of global market. The more cities, markets, trade routes you have, the cheaper the prices should be. As I already mentioned this would be a global market, meaning if AI or your opponent buys some resources from the market, the price goes up, and the available resource count goes down. Each turn some new batch or resources should come. If the particular market is saturated, the amount of resources wouldn't pile up any more. Rummage system would still be there, but in case you need some more wood to train 100 archers (and you happen to have no lumber mill), you could sell your food, or just buy the wood for some good ol' cash.

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I agree. I'd like to see only the 'core' resources that everybody needs for basic building and training be rummage-able. Perhaps allow the other resources to be rummaged only if you have access to that resource somewhere in your kingdom already - but if it's at a rate like 0.05 per turn, I wonder if that'd be worth it at all. And if it's at a rate higher than that, then it just diminishes the importance of those resources.

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/signed

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I can see utra-rare resources like this...luckilly it's just a value that can be 0.0 or 0.05 with a flick of the wrist

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agreed that most likely only Basic resources should have a rummage value, if for no other reason than to avoid newb traps OR exploits. (either way from balanced you swing it, to either it will go)

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I concour. This can't hurt, but it sure can help.

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Bear in mind that as resources become less common you're going to get less of it because you'll have fewer nodes of it.

So really I think the "no rummage" is only need for resources you truly want to be ultra rare.

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It would be good if they had a prospecting skill so you could find out what is available in your area and could tailor your technologies to luck of the draw.

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Quoting Silicor,

reply 7

I agree, but I would insure that their is a fair distribution of ultra rare resources. Not that everyone has the same resources, but that everyone has a relatively equal amount of ultra rares in their area. Just to make the playing field even.

It would be good if they had a prospecting skill so you could find out what is available in your area and could tailor your technologies to luck of the draw.

Disagree, that would defeat the point of them being "ultra rare". There should be about 3 maybe 4 of them on a large map tops. If you really want that resource so badly, you'd better be willing to trade a lot for it or go to war.

If everyone has one, how is it "ultra rare"? These resources need to be coveted and what the game uses to divide the "haves" from the "have nots". The upside of having no base rummage value means that you'll know exactly which cities are the focus of producing stuff with that special resource and be able to strategize around it.

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It would be good if they had a prospecting skill so you could find out what is available in your area and could tailor your technologies to luck of the draw.

I think this is a very important map setting. Civ IV had this and I think it was a great idea: random resources (all resources are distributed randomly across the map), and symmetric resources, where each player's starting area had roughly equal abundances of the different resources. I usually played with the former because I thought it was more fun, but I think both have their merits. It also doesn't seem like something that would be too hard for the devs to incorporate, and would satisfy everybody.

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yea, balanced resources is usually better for multiplayer games where everyone tends to min/max in more or less the same way.

Of course having different viable strategies for different factions will at least somewhat alleviate the monotony ;3

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Fortunately, it appears this will be extremely easy to mod! I think both systems have merits, and we will see which one is more fun (since when creating resources for mods we would have to create a "rummage value" this should be about as easy as it gets to mod existing resources).

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astrath

Join Date 04/2006

+28

Alternatively you could have a system where rare resources aren't rummaged at all, but instead could be obtained in volume (say 1 or 2 units or more) by chance events, like a hoard being found etc. This would still allow players access to some elite resources but you wouldn't be able to rely on them.

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I'd like to see both Mithril and Star-metal to get into the game .... Star-metal would be FAR more rare I think ... perhaps on a factor of 10? for Star-metal to be more rare, instead of having fewer deposits, it could simply be finite deposits, unless all deposits are finite, then it could have 1/10th the amount of materials.

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There are a whole lot of decisions that interact here and complicate the matter.

How powerful will top resources be? If they are extremely powerful then a few alternate means of acquiring them is warranted. This can be slightly offset if they are powerful-but-predictable and somewhat counterable.
How common will the resources be? You could have un-rummageable resources even if the deposits are somewhat common, or at least not rare. A resource that required specialized processing at the source and in transit to stay "fresh" would be an example.
Will partial Units be useful? Will anything require .25 of a resource or will it all require 1 full unit. If we can do something with .25 of a resource than a .05 rummage value becomes significantly more useful.
How far up the tech tree will you need to research? We know that certain resources will only appear once you have researched the tech. If you have to research all the way up a tech tree and then find a deposit of the resource then perhaps it should be slightly more powerful. This also depends on the usefulness of the rest of that tree.
What will be involved in getting the AI to give you access to their resources. Given Stardock's expertise in game AI this will be interesting.
How many total different resources will there be? Perhaps an obvious question, but it needs to be stated. I'm guessing Stardock has a general idea here, but much is probably still up in the air.
Will rummage value be static? I can certainly justify a resource being extremely rare when first discovered and slowly becoming less rare as the game moves on and more of it gets out into the world. I like this idea as it would give a significant first mover advantage, but allow others to slowly catch up. It might even be dependent on how much of the resource you are using to discourage over-use of it. This would slightly complicate modding, but I doubt it would be too bad.

I like the idea of events providing some of a resource, but since the current resource model does not use an inventory system that probably won't work. You could still have events that spawn a resource though. You could have a meteor shower that damages anything in a square but becomes a source of star-metal afterwards.

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Quoting Silicor, reply 7

I agree, but I would insure that their is a fair distribution of ultra rare resources. Not that everyone has the same resources, but that everyone has a relatively equal amount of ultra rares in their area. Just to make the playing field even.

It would be good if they had a prospecting skill so you could find out what is available in your area and could tailor your technologies to luck of the draw.

Disagree, that would defeat the point of them being "ultra rare". There should be about 3 maybe 4 of them on a large map tops. If you really want that resource so badly, you'd better be willing to trade a lot for it or go to war.

If everyone has one, how is it "ultra rare"? These resources need to be coveted and what the game uses to divide the "haves" from the "have nots". The upside of having no base rummage value means that you'll know exactly which cities are the focus of producing stuff with that special resource and be able to strategize around it.

I think his concern was more that he didn't want to see all the ultra-rare resources stuck up in the nw corner or something. If there are say 3 ultra-rare types and maybe 2 of each of these (6 total) then those 6 should be spread out somewhat evenly. I think this is a valid point.

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As far as how powerful a resource is ... perhaps equipment made from that resource only increases attck or def by 1 (or less) although Ultra-rares could say, add magical resistance, or not have any fatigue penalties, ect.

Perhaps silver, when attacking undead and/or discorporal creatures, will consider their defense score to be halved (while bodiless ghosts and ghasts would normally have high defensive scores since there is nothing (much) to hit)

same goes with cold-steel when fighting demons or devils. I suppose magically created Soul-Steel could be used effectively against angels (but would not be natural deposits) ... adamantium might be the toughest vs physical damage, but Star-metal might give as high as 50% magical resistances.

Just lots of things to play with as far as rare metals are concerned with ... beyond the simple defense score. However 90% of armors will simply be a defense stat and perhaps a fatigue stat.

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Yep, I'll definately sign this petition too. I think there should be a better term for "rummage score," too. Perhaps it could be referred to as simply being more economical with the few resources available. For instance, if you have an overstock of wood, you would be able to make spears very quickly by choosing the naturally choice pieces of wood available, which cuts down on time. If you don't have much wood, though, you can still make plenty of spears, but you have to spend more time crafting the less optimal lumber you have available to get the same results.

I think it would be interesting, too, to have rare resources that don't come from actual resource nodes, but are instead one time influxes like when you plunge a dungeon or kill a magical monster. If you kill 10 unicorns, you would get 10 unicorn horns that you stash away in your vault and are able to craft a one time 10-set of super weapons to give to special soldiers. Naturally, you wouldn't be able to rummage such things either.

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Goodmorning all

One though about forging
from https://forums.elementalgame.com/367108 you can see my idea on unit building and how to keep from having an exceedingly cluttered menu of units to choose from who never the less remains up to date.

But this system Explicately assumes that if you don't have a resourses you can't build certain types of units. Thus i two would prefer a system where high end raw resourses don't have a rummage value.

I think a much more elequent system would be to have a market which one can buy and sell things to, and have THAT market have a rummage value for things. So you can aquire thing you need, and top level resourse too, but you have to arrange for it through the market .

Then you Buy something, and it unlocks the units that use that thing, until you run out.

+ it would be cool to have a commodities market in the game that starts off basic and grows as it's used, some basic thing that has weak supply and demand behavour.

After all, how are you going to rummage even 0.05 of a dragon heart if there are no dragons what so ever in any of your lands or any land you can see? The market can because it's everywhere, and if you are willing to pay enough.

Just my thought,

Robbie Price

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If you have one-time influx of a resource (unicorn hors, for example), you basically have to switch to a storage system, or semi-storage system, where the ordinary resources would be described as per turn influx, and ultra rares would have to be stored. While this is some resolution, I don't like mixing systems - it can cause more problems (especially with balance), than it's worth.

I would propose some other solution for the random resources, or resources that shouldn't be just extracted every turn (can you imagine setting a hunters shack in a title with unicorns, so that you can get a constant influx of their horns!?). I will call it: temporary influx system. The point of this system is to simulate the 'life cycle' of an ultra rare resource. In other words - with time, the rate of influx would be smaller and smaller. Example: 1st week - 0.5 horns; 2nd week - 0.25 horns; 3rd week - 0.1 horn; 4th week+ - no horns.

How can you explain it? Think about the horns. One brave hero kills unicorns (I mean, a baaaad hero ) and delivers their horns to the capitol, so that they can be used for weapon forging. Unicorn horns are so rare, that some of them will simply be stolen, so they can be sold later (on the black market). Also, the smith has to teach his young padawans how to forge unicorn armors of uberness. If you can't fathom it still - imagine a beautiful woman. She's lonely. You can have her (let's assume, she wants you). The longer you will wait, the less probably you will get from her (she will eventually understand that you are a nerd), until at last she will forget about you. Good things can't last forever, you know?

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I am actually against the idea of starsteel in the game, just becuase I don't particularly like the idea of (pure) fanasy worlds being in anything approaching a Copernican(sp?) solar system. Now, it wouldn't be a game-ruining problem or anything like that, but it would annoy me enough to mod it out immediately.

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er ... what exactly is your distaste for star-metal? Copernican Solar System? Im not understanding what you mean.

I do however know that its just a meteorite which happens to contain use-ful enough metals for combat, and just permeable enough that it can actually be harvested and welded (as opposed to completely industructable).

Most likely with some kind of either magical resistances or unique properties such as low-weight (feeling like your wearing no armor at all) ... of course, the main reference I have seen starmetal, it is actuallyi insanely dense and heavy, and you only need a VERY tiny piece to weld it with some other metal (like iron, steel, mithril?) to give it the extra properties of a star-metal alloy. yay Metallurgy!

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Do I detect a fellow OOTS reader?

I beleive Scoutdog is worried about assuming that we are dealing with a planet that orbits a star and so forth instead of a flat world on top of elephants and turtles or some other sort of world entirely. Essentially don't assume that meteorites are even possible in this world.

One thing that I've decided is that I don't particularly want regular resource deposits to be quite that important. This is a magic world and I would prefer that the mana shrines/crystals should be the most valuable things on the map. Perhaps my MOM-ism is showing though... In my day we didn't have no fancy-shmancy resources on our map and we Liked It! Now get off my 8-bit map tile!

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I think even Non-Orbital planets/planetoids/Hashmaps can still have some sort of Cellestial surrounding, even if its not technically Solar (or galactic, or universal) in scale. Even if the world is just the interior of a hollowed out shell (space bends in on itself) ... there could still possibly be materials that come from say ... anything primal and yet god-like in scale, like a small piece of metal/ore falling off from a disk that hangs in the sky, moving over the sun to create night, or some reaction in the energy source that used up some sort of energy core ... and its dried, condensed, and metallic remains falls from the sky.

What I am saying is that your planet (or inverse spacial microuniverse) does not have to be in a solar system, or even have existing space beyond itself, to have relics from its creation, or from its energy source, or below ground (obsidian is lava rock) ... ect.

I do agree that from a magical perspective Mana Shards will be the most imporatnt (by far) ... but if you are approaching the game from a non-magical perspective, rare-metals could certainly be the most important .... (even if only as toys for your pet units/heroes, and not mass-producable for any macro-strategy)

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