Sorry for another thread on espionage, but there are several threads with spy conversations going and I want to address some points in all of them, and I don't want to post my response in all those threads.
In one of those threads someone had the idea of a Grima type of espionage - it's a cool idea and definitely fits the genre. but it never really gained traction and I never really considered it seriously because as I imagined how it would play out in the game I was imagining how this would play out against another human player. I mean, would they gradually lose control of their channeler as he fell under a Grima-type's influence? I puzzled it and decided it was not really something that could add to the game.
Other concerns about espionage systems is that they are mostly RNG based, and really are just a slightly different path to what essentially becomes a combat or diplomacy victory. The thing about a diplomacy victory is it is essentially a sharred victory with your allies, and it seems that people are after something like that but that definitely leaves you as the person in charge. Again this brought my thinking back to Grima in LOTR - this was not some shared power arrangement, this was puppet mastery. And again, I couldn't think of a fun and engaging way you could have that in a game.
This morning I had an idea that just might work. It does not have it's own victory condition, but I do think that it could be powerful enough and provide enough of a unique approach that someone could still essentially win a game following a spymaster approach that does not just boil down to RNG luck.
In essence (PUN!), for the Grima approach to work well you need to have minor races (or tribes or whatever) in the game. And developing the spy networks only works among these minor tribes who either are not led by a channeler (they have found some habitable land and are getting by without one) or their channeler is in some way flawed or significantly less powerful than the leaders of the major factions. The exact process of subverting their government or gaining Jedi mind control over their leader - I leave the specifics of that to better brains than mine. But there could be a very involved combination of Spy Heroes/ mundane spies and magic to accomplish the take-over. It should take some time and take significant investment to "take over" the minor race. Also, I don;t think your take-over should be evident to other players. The tribes city(ies) come under your control, you move their armies, heck you could even run this minor races diplomacy and trading! (Imagine befriending your enemy via proxy and then betraying them and backstabbing them when they needed your help most! 
So I think for multiple reasons they should not just "convert" to being part of your empire, they become your puppets.
This also provides for some interesting counter-espionage possibilities. Another major tribe could infiltrate just as you did and wrest control of the Civ from you. If they suspected that a minor tribe had been taken over they could cleanse the leader of your nasty influence by a spell (should be very costly) just like Gandalf removing Grima's influence from Theodin of Rohan. And such a cleansing there should be very likely to cause the previously controlled sovereign to umm - put you at the top of his shit lilst and declare war on you! Of course if a channeler made the wrong call and tried to "cleanse" a sovereign who was not being controlled, well, it would be a huge waste of resources, and possibly said sovereign will be a tad miffed.
Anywya, eventually a true spy master player may find himself not only running his civilization, but eventually could be pulling the strings of multiple minor races as well. It strikes me as a VERY fun possibility, provides a truly unique path to victory 9although not its own VC) and I can;t think of any game that has taken such an approach.
One possible way i could see it working (there are tons of others) would be that first you would need to soften the sovereign up with some mundane spies that could ingratiate themselves and earn the sovereigns trust. This could be followed up by sending a Hero Spy in for the coup d'grace. The Hero could then either stick around to keep a tight reign (the cost being that he couldn't move on to his next victim) or he could proceed to subverting another Civ, but leaving the puppet cheiftain open to being taken over by another player. I would not expect this would be something easily available to any player, it should only be open to someone who vigourously pursued this path.
Thoughts?
