The 'city level up free bonus' balance discussion thread

About the only one I agonize over is the level 5 fortress ones for smaller maps where you can't afford an "unrest only" fortress.  The rest are usually pretty easily decided depending on where the game is (and some I basically never choose.)

The problem with the "no unrest for *this* city" conclave/fort improvements at level 4 is that by the time the city reaches level 4, either I've already built them for this city or I've got so many other unrest reduction modifiers in the empire that they're unnecessary.  It's so rare for me that population growth outstrips improvement rate that these might as well not exist.

They might be more relevant if global unrest reduction was less available (although that would be annoying in its own right.)

Here are some suggested alternatives:

• Lev 4 Conclave "Tenfell University": I think that flavor wise that this is supposed to represent the benefit of academic chaos in fostering new research ideas.  
• How about instead of removing unrest penalty for research, actually have it *improve" research (i.e. flip the modifier) just for this city?
• Alternatively this improvement could add free magic-staff defender units.  This would probably get overshadowed on its own, so would probably need to be added to something else.
• Perhaps it could provide an effect similar to the Outpost to reduce strategic spell mana costs and/or increase the effect (either globally, or when cast by a champion stationed in the city's zone of control)
• Perhaps it could grant a one-time free tech advance or research point bonus (similar to the champion top level loremaster benefit)
• Lev 4 Fort "Gallows": This is already very similar flavor to the prison improvement also available to fortresses at this level, with a slightly darker theme.  The problem with following that theme is that it's kind of Empire focused.
• Could swap Prison and one of the Level-3 fortress upgrades (which are all nice, and having the unrest reduction earlier might actually be useful, although it would be very hard to compete with the other level 3s..)
• Could add +1 Death shard power (but would then be useless to Kingdoms.)
• Could negate the growth penalty from Sacrificial Altar (again, Empire only)
• Could be outright replaced by something a little farther afield from Prison
• Tournament Field: +stats for trained units (perhaps Accuracy)
• Royal Stables: + horse production
• Forced Labor Camps: + production AND + unrest

The biggest "problem" with Archivist and Guild Warehouse is not that the +50% bonus to research/gildar is a bad option, but mainly that it is overshadowed by the other options. Archivist would only be an option in late-game conclaves for me (where I only build the research buildings). The Guild Warehouse just never seems a better option than the other two. So yeah, these could certainly use some changes

Gallow, Embassy and Tenfell University suffer from the same "problem" imo. Besides, I'd rather keep the unrest in all of my cities low (so Prison becomes even more of a no-brainer) than let certain resources be unaffected by the unrest.

Underforge is something I would only cosider if I was swimming in Onyx Thrones already and didn't need another one to keep unrest on reasonably low levels and if I could use that +1 Earth Power. Most of the time I don't have that many level 4/5 fortresses though (and I'm usually not that desperate to get more Earth Power). Secondly, the reduced labor cost of armor is useless, since I'd always take the Great Arena over it in my training fortress. 

Another one that I never use is the Tower of the Magi. I never train any troops in a conclave, so I don't see the point in giving conclaves a unit trait. 10 Spell resist can never weigh up against the buffs I get from the buildings and level up improvements of fortresses. So as far as I'm concerned, this is an utterly useless improvement.

The last one that should be changed according to me is the Mining Guild. It might be a better choice than Gallow, but if you compare it to Amethyst Vault, you'll see that it's underwhelming. Both are a level 4 improvement and give +2 of a specific resource. The problem is that Metal has a way lower value than Crystal. Getting +1 Metal from resources is way easier than getting +1 Crystal. So why is the equivalent of an improvement that grants +2 Crystal something that grants +2 Metal. It should be upgraded to at least +4 Metal.

Conclave 3:
- Archivist: +50% city research production when producing research here. Only really useful if you're willing to have one city which is basically undeveloped that only builds research infrastructure (which isn't very practical, given how long it would take to build the stuff if you don't have good production levels).
- Oracle: +1 essence in city. I consider this to be in general the best Conclave upgrade at this level.
- Scroll Scribe: +20% to city research production; provides Blizzard Scrolls, Return Scrolls, and Summon Air Elemental Scrolls to shop. I'll take one or two of these in convenient locations so that I have quick and easy access to Blizzard Scrolls if I want them for use in any wars I'm fighting, but generally I'd rather have an Oracle.

Oracles are good, Scroll Scribes are decent, Archivists can be circumstantially useful. I'd rather that the Archivist gave a bonus which was always in effect in addition to (or in place of) the continuous production bonus, but otherwise this is a decent set.

Conclave 4:
- Academy of Revelation: +10% faction research production. Good when I have highly distributed research, bad if my research is highly concentrated and badly hampered by unrest. Widely distributed research is likely to benefit more from this than from the Tenfell University even if my research is suffering badly from unrest.
- Amethyst Vault: +2 crystal production per season. If I haven't had much or any crystal income up to the point where I'm offered an Amethyst Vault, chances are I haven't bothered researching much of anything in the magic tree, because most of what that gives me requires crystal which I don't have. I don't find this particularly useful.
- Tenfell University: this city's research production is unaffected by unrest. Only useful for small empires where removing unrest research penalties on one city is a bigger bonus than increasing the overall research bonus by 10%. I'll pass. I might go for it if it offered a set of scrolls like the Scribe does, or if it gave me e.g. Wands of Fireballs.

Tenfell University could use improvement relative to the Academy of Revelation, and Amethyst Vaults come somewhat late, likely after I'm already a fair ways into whichever military tech path I chose to pursue based on Iron Deposit and Crystal Crag availability, which means that it's either a minor bonus to my already sufficient for my purposes crystal economy, or it's not useful enough to justify diverting the amount of research necessary to bring Magic-based equipment up to about the point I'm at with Warfare-based equipment. If it's my only reasonable source for crystal, I'll take it so I can use trinkets, if not I don't want it. Academy of Revelation is the only really useful one here.

Conclave 5:
- Hedigah Bathhouse: +1 Water Mana; city unrest reduced by 30. This is about on par with the Pyre. Whether I take this or the Pyre depends on whether or not I want more Fire or more Water shards at the moment, and to a much lesser extent on whether or not I've adequately managed unrest to this point of the game.
- Pyre of Anniellum: +2 Fire Mana. See above.
- Tower of the Magi: trained units receive 10 extra spell resistance; city is immune to strategic spells. 10 spell resistance is useful at the point in the game when you can get this? Does anyone normally train units in high-level Conclaves rather than high-level Fortresses (or even low- or mid-level Fortresses)? The strategic spell immunity might be nice, but I'd rather have a Pyre or a Bathhouse. I'll only take this if I'm really having significant difficulties with spellcasters that I think can be solved with an extra 10 spell resistance over and above the 10 spell resistance I can get in unit design, and think that the loss of the Fortress bonuses is more than compensated for by that extra 10 spell resistance, which strikes me as a rather unlikely situation.

Tower of the Magi really suffers in comparison to the Pyre of Anniellum and the Hedigah Bathhouse if you're using any spells that have any dependency on Fire or Water Shards, and additionally Conclaves aren't my go-to locations for troop training - if they aren't building infrastructure, I'd rather have them producing research than units, because Fortresses can turn out better units faster than Conclaves can in most circumstances. I also don't think I've ever been in a situation where the extra 10 spell resistance would have been that useful. Pyres and Bathhouses are good as-is.

Fortress 3:
- Infirmary: units trained here receive trait "Endurance I" granting them an extra 1 health per level; units stationed in this city heal by an extra 10 health per turn. It's useful for tanking units and for healing up quickly after a battle, so it's okay, but not terribly great. If I'm making a secondary or tertiary training fortress, a border fortress, or an unrest reduction fortress, I might choose this.
- Strike Garrison: units trained here receive the "Impulsive" trait, granting them +2 initiative. My preferred upgrade at this level.
- Watchtower: units trained here receive trait "Charge" granting +1 move and +2 attack on their first turn in a battle; city defense force increased by 1 catapult. Fine for border defense, though I think Impulsive is better than Charge most of the time, and I can get Charge during unit design if I really want it. Like Infirmary, this is an option for a secondary or tertiary training fortress, a border fortress, or an unrest reduction fortress, but not really for my primary training fortress.

All of these are about equal, though Strike Garrisons and Watchtowers provide traits which is better for offensive troops and Infirmaries provide a trait which is better for the tank line (as long as you can preserve the tank line long enough for it to pick up a few levels, anyways). Watchtowers can be replaced by picking its trait during unit design, but otherwise I don't have any real objections to any of these. I would kind of rather that one of these were switched with one of the Fortress 4 upgrades, but I see the reasoning behind forcing a choice in how to train the elite troops.

Fortress 4:
- Gallows: this city's production is unaffected by this city's unrest level. This does the same thing as the Empire improvement "Slave Pens" without the production bonus. If I'm playing a Kingdom, maybe. If I'm playing an Empire and am not unwilling to build Slave Pens, no way.
- Mining Guild: +2 metal production per turn. I'll pass on this one for all the reasons given above for the Amethyst Vault, with the added reason of Iron generally being a far more common resource.
- Prison: -10 unrest in all the cities you control; -1 growth in this city. -10 global unrest is nice, -1 growth in the city is not. Depends on how useful I think getting the city up to the next level will be, and whether or not I think that -10 global unrest is particularly helpful for me right now or in my short-term plans (long term plans include Onyx Thrones, which are greatly superior).

Gallows is useful to Kingdom players, but the Prison basically serves the same purpose on an empire-wide level, and the Slave Pens available to Empires are strictly better than the Gallows; Slave Pens can additionally be built in every city within an Empire. Mining Guilds suffer the same problems as Amethyst Vaults, with the additional problem of Iron being so much more abundant. In the relatively rare case that I lack sources of both Iron and Crystal, I'll go up the Warfare tree for improving my military so Mining Guilds are slightly useful as backup metal sources, but they aren't useful as supplements to existing sources of Iron unless you're really desperate for metal. On the whole, I'd say that Prisons are the best choice here, though that growth penalty hurts your ability to get to the next level, where the good unrest reduction structure can be found (on the other hand, the growth penalty can be counteracted with a single Consulate in an outpost or made more or less negligible with Sovereign's Call, so it's also not terrible).

Fortress 5:
- Great Arena: units trained here receive +1 attack (note that this probably only applies to units with nonzero base physical attack) and +3 health (both of these apply per-figure). This would be my favored choice for unit training Fortresses.
- Onyx Throne: -30 unrest in all cities controlled by the player. This would be my favored choice for Fortresses which are not used as training centers.
- Underforge: +1 Earth Mana; armor production cost is halved in this city. How often does anyone want Earth Mana? The armor production cost reduction is okay, but isn't as good as the Great Arena bonus in my opinion unless I'm more interested in quantity than quality.

Great Arenas are good for troop training centers, Onyx Thrones are good for anything else. About the only situation I can think of where I'd want an Underforge is if I'm using metal equipment on throwaway troops and I want to be able to produce them slightly faster, though I suppose that an Underforge Fortress producing elite units would churn out elite units faster and at only a very small loss of power relative to Great Arenas, because by the time Underforges could reasonably be expected to exist in my cities the production costs of Leather Armor should be negligible, and I'd rather spend crystal on weapons and trinkets than on armor, and on elite troops rather than fodder troops.

Town 3:
- Guild Grocer: +5% health for all the player's units. Probably the best bonus Towns get.
- Slums: +3 growth in this city; +5 unrest in this city. Only useful if I want a target for Sacrifice or Blood Curse, as population isn't very useful except at certain breakpoints. I'll pass on this for all of my cities in most games.
- Guild Warehouse: +50% gildar production in this city when producing wealth here. Sort of useful for one or two gold factories, not very useful for much else. I'd rather take the Grocer.

Bad set; Guild Grocers are very useful in all situations, whereas Slums and Warehouses are at best circumstantially useful. I would go so far as to say that the Guild Grocer is the single best improvement Towns offer, and might be the best level-up improvement in the game, especially since the bonus stacks with additional Grocers.

Town 4:
- Almshouse: +1 Fame per season. By the time I get this, I don't need more champions. I'll pass unless I'm playing an Altar Henchman strategy.
- Embassy: the unrest penalty for empire size is negated in this city. Not particularly valuable to me.
- Governor's Office: +1 production per material in all cities of this player. I suppose it's sort of useful, and more helpful overall to my empire than the others. Nothing fantastic, but not terrible.

Bad set; I don't like anything offered here, though I'd sooner have the Governor's Office than anything else. Generally if I have two or three champions available for leading my armies and have one or two available for sitting in towns, I don't really want any more of them, so the Almshouse isn't useful (I'll have three or four champions long before the Almshouse even nears availability in my normal games). Embassies just try to reduce unrest in the one city type that doesn't really need to have unrest reduction to fill its primary purpose, and moreover I ought to be managing my empire in a way that keeps unrest at a reasonable level without needing this, because if I need this in a level 4 Town I probably also need it all of my Conclaves and Fortresses, which have greater need of unrest reduction than Towns do. Thus I'll take the Governor's Office since that's actually useful, even if it's not very useful.

Town 5:
- Guild Lendinghouse: +2000 gold upon construction; no ongoing bonus. I'll pass. I only use gold for paying wages, rushing one or two structures every now and then, and filling up missing equipment slots on champions I'm using. I don't need 2000 gold dumped into the treasury.
- Guild Tribunal: +2 production per material in all cities of this player. Good for my empire, but not spectacular.
- Mint of Ruvenna: +5 gold production per material in this city. Like Warehouses, it's sort of useful for one or two gold factories, but not for much else. Small amounts of gold just don't have much value, and even +5 gold per material isn't that much when you consider that you're only getting your tax percentage out of it.

Bad set; by the time the Lendinghouse is available, buying weapons for even two champions can easily blow through the whole bonus, and it doesn't offer any ongoing gift. If you set up Consulates etc to boost the growth so that you can get here at a point in the game where the gold is valuable, then maybe it'd be worthwhile. Mints of Ruvenna suffer a similar problem, with the added 'bonus' of being affected by your tax rate, though they can be used as the basis of a sustainable economy, unlike Lendinghouses. Rushing production and buying champion equipment is so expensive by the point you can usually get these things that they just aren't really worthwhile. This means that the Guild Tribunal wins by default, though by the time you get it, it isn't that great either.

Great posts everyone. I hope StarDock pays this attention and chooses to throw a few resources after rebalancing these unlocks for 1.5.

joeball, I agree with more or less everything in the first half of your analysis but little in the second half. I'l just go over these:

- Gallows: Can still be somewhat useful even as an Empire. Unlike this, the Slave Pens aren't free to build, after all. Still, only ever useful on small maps, anything big and the Prison is always better by default.

- Underforge: Clearly people don't like this, but it isn't that bad. Compare to level 5 Conclave improvements and you see that Underforge is on par with them. Of course, level 5 Conclave stuff is arguably somewhat underpowered - point being: if Underforge needs reworking, some of the level 5 Conclave stuff probably does, too. I don't see why you'd rate earth power under the other magic schools. The most relevant comparison is Underforge vs Great Arena - this is indeed quantity vs quality. Great Arena probably wins out so Underforge could get: 1) metal discount on unit builds (efficient armor construction - like an even larger bonus version of the one from Mining Guild, saving you lots of metal when building armored units) 2) upgraded value of armor (superior armor construction - increased defense stats from chainmail & plate armor (perhaps +1 armor value from each chainmail armor item, +2 from each plate item). I don't think it's a bad idea having anything level 5 provide solid bonuses, those things don't come easy and should be rewarded (other level 5 unlocks also increased in value accordingly).

- Slums: Actually a really potent upgrade. It doubles the rate at which you'll reach level 4 and beyond and/or can be used as an incredible Pioneer pump - could easily be worth giving up the 5% health Grocer bonus for in cities with 6-7 Grain that can support that kind of growth rate.

- Guild Warehouse: I think a "gold factory" is a complete waste of a city: you're trading the city's ~20-30 Production just to produce very few Gildar when using the 'build Wealth' continuous build. Gildar is worth too little in this game (especially with how low rates you're forced to run due to unrest) so I don't see dedicating a city to producing gildar only being worthwhile. I'm hoping for a general rebalance that makes it more feasible running higher tax rates (running 'Normal' should indeed be normal, at least, whereas 'Low' tends to be better most of the time currently) so gildar gets more powerful but I still don't see that saving this Warehouse unlock.

- Almshouse: I mostly agree with you, but if we theoretically had this really balanced game that dragged on forever - which is what you should balance things around - the Almshouse actually does make some sense. It isn't terrible and it will allow you to field more heroes/Sions/Henchmen over time in a long game.

- Embassy: It isn't true that reducing unrest in a city isn't worthwhile just because it's a Town type. Towns still have useful things to build (in a large empire: Butcher + Brewery, oh my!). A useful strat if unrest has become hopeless anyway is to go Slums --> Embassy, giving you a level 4 Town with 0% unrest.

- Governor's Office: It's like getting a Workshop for free in all your cities. Definitely powerful.

- Guild Lendinghouse: +2000 Gildar is worth 2000/1.5 = 1333 rushbuy production or a whole lot of fancy items for your champions in the city shops - it's decent.

If a moderator is reading this: please move the thread to the Fallen Enchantress/Legendary Heroes subforum where I meant to post it. Thanks!

The original poster can always move the thread.  Just edit the OP, click Category, and then choose the forum/sub-forum where you want to put it.  It's really quite easy.

Slave Pens might not be free, but by choosing Gallows instead of Prison (or Mining Guild) as Empire, you're basically throwing away a free improvement. If you pick Prison and build Slave Pens, you end up with 2 bonuses instead of 1 at the small cost of sacrificing some turns (or gildar) to construction.

It might indeed be on par with the conclave bonuses, but the problem is that it's not quite as good as the other lvl 5 fortress bonuses. I would agree to letting it provide a defense bonus to chain and plate armor while lowering the cost. Earth Power would probably have to go then (could be turned into a lvl 5 conclave bonus as a replacement for the Tower of the Magi).

Towns might have interesting buildings to construct, but my early-game towns don't have enough unrest to justify chosing Embassy. My mid- and late-game towns usually complete most of the faction-wide food buildings before reaching level 4. As a result, I never feel as if the Embassy is worth picking.

And by the time I can get it, I most likely have at least the first upgrade of the workshop in all but very new cities. It's useful, yes, and I think it's better than the Embassy and Almshouse options, but it isn't great.

Towns are the only city-type specializing in producing things which aren't affected by unrest (specifically, food and gold). If I've managed my unrest levels well enough that Conclaves and Fortresses are still useful, then Embassies are not useful, and if I haven't managed my unrest levels well enough for that, then I've screwed most of my cities. Basically, it's only useful to me if I screw up the game.

Having one or maybe two gold factories is useful, if you find an area with a gold mine or two, high materials, and a bit of essence. Why? Because one or two of them can give you positive income while you ignore Merchants and Markets in all your other cities. I'm fine with sacrificing the infrastructure of a Town or two so that the rest of my empire can focus on developing research and production infrastructure, and all a gold factory needs to have built in it is the Market and the Merchant, which is quick and easy to do. This also can be done in marginal locations that aren't really good for anything else.

I compare the city upgrades to those they compete with, not to those held by other city types. The Underforge is somewhat useful, but I'd rather have a bonus to my elite units than faster production of my elite units, since my level 5 troop training fortresses ought to be able to crank them out fairly quickly anyways, and if I want to produce elite units more rapidly I can always begin training in another fortress (or even Towns and Conclaves).

Slums are only particularly potent if the level-up bonuses are particularly potent, and it becomes much less useful as the game goes on because population has little value outside of Pioneers and city levels. I would also say that an additive 5% bonus to the health of every unit you have is worth far more than anything else that Town level upgrades offer - cities have sufficient production without Governor's Offices and Guild Tribunals, Embassies and Almshouses are worth very little to me, Mints of Ruvenna are kind of screwed by the tax system, and Guild Lendinghouses come too late for me to really get excited about the pile of gold they offer.

The problem with this is that the longer a game goes on, the less useful many of those additional champions become, because many of them will be at significantly lower levels than your primary champions (e.g. level 5, which is too low for a champion going up against end-game troops), because only Altar gets Henchmen and only Empires get Sions (which are worse than henchmen), and because the fame requirement for each subsequent champion keeps going up. +1 Fame per turn might seem useful when you only need 100 Fame to get a champion, but it isn't useful when you need 800, and it isn't worth sacrificing the Governor's Office for the Almshouse even if you're going to do it in every Town you have. 20 Towns with Almshouses might get you a new champion in 40 turns at the 800 Fame mark, but the next one requires twice the fame, and given the choice between 20 extra Fame per turn or 20 production in every city I have, I'll take the production any day. The argument for Henchmen and Sions is better, but if it's going to matter much, then the non-Altar Kingdoms need something equivalent to Sions or they'll be left in the dust for those long games.

By the time I can usually get it, I don't really need to rush infrastructure in most locations because I already have a large empire to take care of troop production and research needs. Champions who I make use of have also usually found plenty of 'fancy items' via looting monsters by the time I can get one of these, so I'm not particularly inclined to spend anything in the shop, and I'm not particularly inclined to outfit champions I don't use. Additionally, shop prices are exorbitant, especially by the time it's likely that I won't have decent loot for equipping extra champions, which means that outfitting a new champion will blow through this really quickly. Is it useful for getting new settlements up faster? Yeah, a bit. Is it more useful than +2 production in every city I have, including those new settlements and my troop-training Fortresses? Not unless my unrest levels are excessive. And 2000 gold doesn't go that far when rushing production, either - even simple early game units can cost ~100 gold, and basic structures 200-300. If it had an ongoing bonus, like 0.1% treasury interest or a discount in the local shop or credit-buying in the local shop, I might consider it worthwhile, but not as a single payment of 2000 gold.

I almost never get cities to level five, so not sure how much I can contribute!

Having said that:

Tower of the Magi seems pretty useless as it currently is. Maybe it could give free extra defenders? Or how about giving extra spells, e.g. all your heroes can now cast Fireball? Or give a tactical mana reduction for all heroes. Something other than a fairly useless extra spell resistance, anyway.

Mining Guild is useless. Should be four metal a turn to be even worth considering.

Mint of Ruvenna should be at least +10 to be worthwhile over Guild Lendinghouse. Otherwise the game will be over before you pass the 2000 gold mark. Also, getting 2000 gold immediately lets you rush 10 buildings, which essentially fastforwards your empire 5+ turns. I'd always prefer a lump sum now than money each turn, unless the money each turn is massive.

The rest of them although I definitely have my favourites (Strike Garrison/ Scroll Scribe/ Guild Grocer) the other options may have their uses, depending on circumstances and your playing style.