[WOT]in depth analysis of sovereigns[.95]

ddd888

Join Date 04/2009

[WOT]in depth analysis of sovereigns[.95]

here is a detailed compendium on all sovereign and their strenght/weaknesses and playstyles

i based my evaluation in different phases of the game (early:lvl 1-5, mid:lvl 5-10, end:lvl 10+) using the more intuitive role playing way of using them

LADY IRANE

role: ranged assassin

skills:
-hunter is a good trait, help her early but becomes less important mid and end game
-tarth blood is perfect for exploring and leveling, helps her to hunt around in a small party like sovereigns usually do
-starting spells are just decent, most times you dont really need them though
-impulsive trait is also nice

-master scouts is really great and defines the race, being able to explore freely and position piooners early with no risk is huge bonus
-archers is another great trait, once you have access to these bows your army is really powerful and you have an amount of dmg really high
-masterwork chainmail pretty useless i must say, doesnt help much

early game:
irane starts with a bow and her overall early is not that bad, being ranged helps when opponents have no defense and low hp and also dont hit much, most of the times they die b4 reaching you or just hit you couple of times
but still her damage is pretty low, and she has not much utility to her team, its probably still better to wander with a couple of mates, either champions or summoned pet or anything because otherwise she cant really kill everything low level, just a big pack of wolves or spiders can be problematic
the best thing is you can snowball more than others placing many cities early without any risk, this is 90% of her strenght
7/10

mid game:
here irane starts being really weak and fall behind, as a fighter she has absolutely no damage compared to others, she ofc hasnt tanking capabilities and her early assassins traits arent really strong
unless you have been lucky finding a very good bow as a drop irane is basically useless, you kill medium monsters you really need a strong tank champions and some real damage
this is a huge problem because you cant rush the research into bows so either you have lvl 9 champions or you are closer to research the final bows ( Very good)
one way or another your mid game is bad, you need to stack criticals traits b4 doing any dmg and need to research a lot of thing
still the only good part is you should have a high research having built many cities early
3/10

end game:
in the final part of the game irane is good again finally
you have access to rams horn longbow that is quite a cheat in your army, a good party of those archers can kill basically EVERYTHING from monster to strongest armorer sovereigns
irane herself should finally have a good crit chance/dmg and maybe you foudn some book/item meaning now your crits WILL hurt, they are still a bit nerfed but adding you should have very high initiative irane damage is pretty good
the problem is still that end game depends on mid game, if your enemies farmed all the quests/monsters you couldnt kill you are still behind, if they declared war in mid game you are probably still in trouble etc etc
7/10

suggested fixes:
irane is not bad but overall she needs a small buff
my suggestion would be changing masterwork chanmail into something early game, something archerish, like a improved leather giving some initiative or some tools like rings amulets for hunting
anyway something that would buff irane and her army dmg early mid game, not requiring a lot of research because irane has the tools but all of them happen too late, she need a early research that allows her to resist mid game when the best research come

LORD MARKIN

role: tank warrior

skills:

-ironeer blood is very very strong a huge defensive trait to a sovereign already so strong
-starting spells are SO INCREDIBLY STRONG, he has basically EVERYTHING a tanking support need from life and earth schools
-hardy like it wasnt enough all hes got another hpxlvl trait summing that to 30 spell resists and immunity to poison
-train golems is another decent trait
-armorer is another OP trait giving 25% defense bonus that scales really too well end game

-master smiths is a good trait but not so important because all the others are so OP even this good trait doesn shine
-great hammers, another good trait offering good weapons but even here being the sovereign so strong he wont need them, but could help his army
-light plate, about the same as above, helps slightly the army but its not much relevant

early game:
the empire itself is the only problem just for the reason he has no particular tool for that
this is more than balanced by the strongest sovereign in the game by a long margin, lord markin early can literally STEAMROLL EVERYTHING, not only small creatures but even some medium at early levels
that is due his incredibly scaling and snowballing power making him gain a huge amount of defense/hp with few levels AND the nature summon which is very strong
basically he can kill 90% of the monsters the remainin 10% being able to be killed thnx to the summon
summon is very OP the only con he has is the HUGE mana cost but even like this since he doesnt really need to cast often its not a problem
10/10

mid game:
here markin starts becoming a beast, you probably have another couple of hp traits and some dodge and so high armor he can easily tank and kill medium monsters no problem, against strongest ones he can still get the summon help and very strong spells like stoneskin heal to support etc
he is just a beast in fight
at this point you also start getting some reasearch into more fighting tools like the unique items and probably since you never fear monsters you got some good drop out there
i usually take few points into some offensive trait because he is totally unkillable by his peers so maybe taking path of the warrior or assassin is a good choice, but you can still focus on full tank and get some more dmg from other champions or army
10/10

end game:
he is just GOD
not other words, at this point of the game you surely have found a good weapon meaning you can deal some dmg while still being nearly unkillable, add to that some armor drop or champions gear et voila' the best tank in the game, he can blow dragons and enemy sovereigns cant really hurt him in any way, can solo cities with full defense no problem
ofc the real advantage here is that he can kill EVERYTHING, meaning your opponents are starting to struggle facing dragons etc while he can wander and farm the strongest monsters that gives 1/3 of the level each meaning he can keep leveling while his opponents are slowing down
but its irrelevant, he can kill the final quest boss way sooner than lvl 15 but he could also take any city he wanted to
10/10

suggested fixes:
he surely need a good nerf, first id remove his summon because that combo really makes him unstoppable early, imo there HAS TO BE something he cannot kill
then maybe id lower his damage or his scaling i think too many hp per level AND 25%defense AND spell resist is just too much
maybe some less base initiative and accuracy

MAGNAR

role: pure mage

skills:
-warlock dmg is a base for every mage, good skill ofc
-irrelevant and pretty weak in the actual meta because magic is too weak so its useless to have resists at all
-starting spells are just what he need, fire nukes, but his set is not really so huge
-attunement some more mana helps mages ofc
-brillant, this is a good trait, a must for mages ofc and helps level up
-train slaves, so and so trait, slaves help but usually you dont really need so much them, but as cannon fodder it helps

-slave lord this is a very cool trait totally changing gameplay, he really HAS to focus on fighting and killing enemies to feed his empire
-flesh bound tome not so strong imo

early game:
he has a small tool set but very effective
as any classic mage his power is really high, being ranged he basically can kill everything providing he has enough mana, which early on cannot really be possible
but he has another toolset with racial traits to use slaves to fight cheap and regain mana
its not really needed 90% of times imo but its a cool idea overall
9/10

mid game:
he is a bit "luck" dependant, because magic relies a lot on shards
prividing you have some and research the improvements magmar as fire mage just become GOD
his offensive power is immense and way below lvl 10 he can already kill really nearly everything in the game, most times just 1 shotting
being very lucky with shards and level up traits its game over here, no one can really match his power and even being unlucky his damage is anyway very high just not godlike
10/10

end game:
magic is scaling really too much in the game right now so if opponents really manage to get to end game its over anyway, you will have all the best traits and probably managed to find many fire shards making your damage immense
also your spells would cost not much thnx to traits so most likely you wont have mana problems
this is a major flow of the game, you dont really have to be glass cannon, wearing some heavy armor and shield is totally possible and the penalty is about nothing since the dmg comes from shards you can just be a half tank cannon but its not really needed because nearly no one at this stage can even touch you
10/10

suggested fixes:
magmar himself needs a small nerf but also is about general game mechanics, spells shouldnt scale so much, ppl around you should have much more spell resists etc
also to notice in this actual beta ai movement is broken so often they take more turns to reach you, greatly favoring ranged combat and so magmar
as a final notetraits providing dmg shouldnt be so huge at early mid levels

EMPEROR KARAVOX

role: tank mage(i think atm this is the most indicated role for him cause of the abilities giving him good defense, but having 2 powerful schools of magic i think its best being a bit mage too than a pure tank)

skills:
-diplomat its quite impossible to estimate in strenght but should help keeping the peace and so maybe favors a defensive expansionist/explorer gameplay
-krax blood pretty good defensive skill with fortify being the MOST BROKEN SKILL IN THE GAME, seriously is something not even remotely thinkable, 30% dodge for free , seriously???
-wealthy another pretty good skill that synergize a lot with the recruiting both factions champions
-starting spells are quite good

-defensive is decent but you really cant win just defending your own cities, so dunno, probably its strong in ai hands but as a player i dont think its so good
-betrayers is over all nice but in the actual game quite useless, the game doesnt favor hiring MANY champions, just a few good is the best option

early game:
he really doesnt have any good toolset, his playstyle should probably move towards expansion/exploring but there isnt really anything for empire and only thing sustaining him is how OP is fortify
so if you luck with fire shards early you can just build him full mage maybe otherwise even a tank that can occasionally cast works imo
anyway he is just a nerfed copy of other sovereigns, doing many things none of them any good apart from abusing fortify which ofc make him a decent tank
4/10

mid game:
again there is nothing in his toolset to excel
probably the only thing keeping him competitive here is if you rush research champions and hire the best in the world
but again, having many champions is not useful, and hiring all the good ones cost really too much early mid game
diplomat bonus could keep the peace to keep going to quest and exploring and so maybe keeping ad edge in items/levels over the opponents
but still the base is a weaker copy of other sovereigns
also unless really lucky with shards now the dmg starts to lower, no base bonus to dmg or mana, nothing to keep him competitive, ofc apart from fortify that until it gets nerfed allow him to play
3/10

end game:
here the possible paths to victory using his toolset appears to be research or adventuring
he can abuse the defensive bonuses while doing this other stuff instead of war while keeping the peace the longer possible
but still he has no peculiar bonus to neither research nor adventuring so he should still fall behind opponents
2/10

suggested fixes:
well i assume fortify will be severed soon, at least a mana cost and way less dodge is needed but id also make it last few turns not forever
so then apart from abusing this mechanics with ai he would just need something for his expansion but in general his playstyle is lacking, could really use a totally new skill to improve him someway

ORACLE CERESA

role: mage summoner (i focus on shadow magic just cause it seems more appropriate)

skills:
-summoner is ok ability and also the mark of the sovereign
-wraith blood im not even sure its a buff, it seems more a nerf to me
-starting spells are really weak, the worst for every school apart the summon ofc
-attunement just the usual help for pure casters
-scarred another huge nerf, she really has low hp

-adepts is really a minor buff, a small amount of mana to help her start and a tech that doesnt require much time to get anyway
-death worship should characterize the sovereign but imo is still a bit weak atm
-binding is a really cool skill offering a whole new set of creatures

-no armor is another huge nerf to compensate the quality of summons and creature she has at her disposal, over all the sum of all nerf is too huge imo, dying is too easy
-staff of souls is a very very good starting item, as soon as she has a good nuke it really helps

early game:
she is decent fighter due to her summon who helps her to kill stuff she couldnt due to lack of nukes but the scaling is veeeery slow, and having such a low survivability its quite hard to play a glass non cannon
creatures i saw till now also arent that strong, spiders dont quite offer enough to progress fast and her many curses are pretty useless apart a few situations
5/10

mid game:
she really start falling behind as a caster, shadow school is really weak, so unless you luck a lot with shards OR you abuse her background going fire etc she is pretty weak
nothing else she has really helps progressing here, she has half attack mage traits but no nukes and summons really fall behind fast after lvl 5

there is nothing to cover the gap
2/10

end game:
i never really managed to win a game with her at higher diff so this is still WIP
i dont see anything that gives her a chance tbh apart some very lucky start and resource placement

suggested fixes:
summons really need to scale someway to follow her in her progress

not her problem but spells arent balanced we really need improvement into air death earth schools

her unique creatures should be buffed a lot

LORD RELIAS

role: warrior (he is a bit a jack of all trades but since he can craft nice swords...)

skills:
-adventurer weakest skill in game, really lvl 2 takes 2 fights... just useless
-altarian blood decent skill synergizes with his adventuring role
-starting spells are pretty weak
-natural leader instead is really OP but the metagame doesnt really points towards recruiting much, its still better recruit than not
-train henchmen, like you didnt have enough champions

-wanderlust is quite meh, athican leather is pretty bad and the sword comes really ages too late, so its pretty useless
-heroic decent to help progressing thourgh quests

early game:
he has basically nothing, just nothing, he is basically a weak warrior, only good thing is early is fast starting lvl 2 and leveling quite fast, just 2 3 quests and few mobs and you are done
3/10

mid game:
he basically disappear, he has nothing to grow his empire, nothing to defend it, all good techs comes too late, the only interesting concept is henchmen but they come waaaaaay too late to be of any use, considering you already have real champions... if at least you could rush henchmen way faster maybe...
his strenght as fighter is just nothing, the only point in playing him is hoping to find a chain of easy quests to farm and mobs you can defeat, and farm them hoping to get the gear to snowball
there is no other way to progress, his only strenght is leveling faster, but he has no tools to level against the right monsters... he can just hope to not find them but keep finding weaker ones
2/10

end game:

just slightly better because you can do repeatable quests to get good items and you bonus exp should matter, but all other relias skills arent really useful

3/10

suggested fixes:
he really need some fighting tool to be able to use the bonuses on questing and leveling up
also all his unique items and henchmen NEED to come really early in the game otherwise they are pointless

WARLORD VERGA

role: warrior

skills:
-warlord actually useless skill since gildar arent really a problem
-trog blood, pretty weak
-starting spells are so and so, you need to invest into spells if you want something useful to cast but blindness is very good
-hardy as usual a great trait
-train juggernauts well they are really op and gamebreaking imo

-warriors so and so starting tech
-warrior cast might help when rushing your army
-great axes arent so great tbh
-no ranged weapons quite hurt, having everyone melee isnt that great in this game

early game:

as a tankish warrior he can handle some stuff, death spells are quite good as supporting him (blindness mostly)
rushing an army seems the only viable strategy while rushing juggernauts are research since they are game breaking
he can survive early game without shining
6/10

mid game:
here his power starts to fall a bit behind, you either have a very good starting locations with many spot for cities or its nearly impossible to be on par
as a fighter he is just a decent tank but needs good gear to progress and you cant have yet all the good traits
but sooner or later juggernauts will come, its just a matter of how much behind you are when it happens
(ofc this works until ai figure how how easy it is to counter juggernauts)
4/10

end game:
abusing ai with an army of juggernauts can give you the victory but really he has nothing else to offer, his toolset falls behind the more the game progress
and as a pure strenght the sovereign isnt on par with others
4/10

suggested fixes:
as other sovereign the items need to come waaaaaaay faster to hand, its totally useless to have medium weapons that comes... mid game, either you have them soon or they are useless just offering not much more than usual weapons do
his base skills need some rework imo to make him better
i also hope magic will get rebalanced making his early death spells more useful
a smallish buff early game could really help progress in his path and making him a viable choice

QUEEN PROCIPINEE

role: summoner mage

skills:
-amarian blood, nice passive bonus
-starting spells are pretty bad imo, apart from the summon she has not good support stuff and no DD spells
-attunement, the usual help for casters

-adept is not so good tbh
-enchanters is pretty weak as unique ability only outposts might be useful but just to save time nothing more
-scrying pool is pretty OP since essence is now really strong

early game:
she starts quite well same as ceresa thnx to the summon, also scrying pool is a super good free essence, she has no problem at first levels and she is quite good
8/10

mid game:
and suddenly she become nearly useless
none of her schools of magic are any good mid game(well not her problem just as usual only fire is viable in the actual game)
summon is totally useless, it cant tank anything meaning you need a real tank, but he doenst do any dmg either so its just a waste of mana against mid creatures
only option to progress is taking the OP schoools of magic providing nukes but that is just going against nature, she ISNT a nuker
enchanters is totally useless now because you most likely cant defend your cities from monsters growing
scrying pool is the only joy but since your cities are gonna fall anyway its pointless the small early advantage is gone
3/10

end game:
well there isnt any, as usual the only viable option as caster is going full nuke on some exploited school of magic and having many shards, otherwise youll need other champions or a good army to fight while her watches from behind sadly
2/10

suggested fix:

as other casters we really need improvements in the not working schools of magic and better summons

enchanters abilty need to be just remade, this version isnt any good

Locked Post

Advanced Search

Watch this post

Do not email me updates for this post Email me updates for this post

Successfully updated karma reason!

If I were to fix it, I would combine the Summoner trait with Warlock. So you get more powerful summons and that bonus to magic damage. Procipinee would get Life, Air, Fire to start. She needs fire to stand a chance as a mage. Her crown would work the same, but I would add in some new unit enchantments for casters. Then Attunement would get a boost to +6 Mana per turn. That is admittedly alot, but it is also needed to cast lots of magic. New levels of spellbooks would be near guaranteed. The difference would be that each one would have a harsher level requirement. Level 2 books would have a level 2 prereq. Level 3 would have a level 6 prereq. Level 4 would have a level 8 prereq and level 5 would be way up at level 12. You would always get a chance at levelup to choose these. Then I would add alot of new spells to even things out. The theme of magics would be the same, but you would get more choices on how to spend your mana to fit your strategy. Add new levels of summons for each spellbook. Add the staves I mentioned above. Allow the unit to cast a spell and create a staff of that magic type. Add new magical items unlocked in the tech tree for heroes only.

ddd888 makes alot of good points in this thread. Bingjack points out some areas where ddd888's analysis is not entirely accurate. Looking at both sides pinpoints the exact area of the game that is flawed. The real question is whether or not the devs are planning to address these issues in beta 5.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Agreed that non-direct damage mage sovs/champions are lacking. I'm not talking about the spells themselves. Buffs are great, there's just no incentive to focus on path of the mage or any caster traits if you want to be a buffer.

All the best buffs in the game can be found in the first 2 tiers of spells or is researchable. The only buff I can think of that's high level and worth it is mantle of oceans. Taking mage traits doesn't make these buffs any better. Their cost is so low that getting attributes to reduce cost is meaningless.

Other mage traits are +damage, +summon level, and +spell mastery. None of these affect a buffer. If you want a buffer, you might as well just choose any other path for your sov/champion. Your buffs will work just as well, but you'll be miles ahead in terms of survivability and damage.

Procipinee is obviously designed to be a buffer. Scrying pool and her crown are both designed to help her to accomplisht that role. But why would I gimp her by taking path of the mage, which would be the most fitting path for her, lore-wise, when I can choose a warrior path and steamroll everything?

I'd love a set of traits that increases the effect that shards have on your spells. That would be a worthwhile trait that would make focusing on path of the mage actually useful for almost all types of casters.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Squiggled,

reply 52

The other problem is that EVERYONE has access to spells. Seriously, I don't think I've met a champion that didn't have access to spells. Since there's no difference in terms of buffs, why would I take a mage character for buffs over a melee character who has access to the same spells? There's just no incentive.

Procipinee is obviously designed to be a buffer. Scrying pool and her crown are both designed to help her to accomplisht that role. But why would I gimp her by taking path of the mage, which would be the most fitting path for her, lore-wise, when I can choose a warrior path and steamroll everything?

.

Quoting seanw3,

reply 51

Yes. And again seanw3 is mostly right as well. Except I wish he wouldn't classify a "mage" as needing direct offensive magic. Again, by RPG conventions, a mage is just someone who cast spells, and there are all sorts of different mages. Healer/Support, Control, Nuke, Summoner, Battlemage/Clerics.

You need direct damage magic to be a Nuker, not a "mage." I think they are distinct paths, and each should be a viable strategy. I think you should be able to get by as a nuker. I think you should be able to succeed as as a buffer , who makes their troops into "jedi". I think you should be able to get by as a summoner. Ideally their should be a stronger control set too, with tricky tactical options to outwit your opponents tactically.

I dont think any of these mage types should have to nuke on a regular basis to succeed. I even think it should be difficult for them to do so. I think the game should allow for overlap, but reward specialization.

The problem with nuking right now, is that currently it simply isn't cost efficient to do on a regular basis, compared to other alternatives. That could all change in a matter of weeks, as the game is rebalanced, and the AI improved.

I also wish spell schools as traits were rarer in the game, so starting spell schools were much more vital, and would play a much larger role in shaping strategy, and there were more purely melee characters out there. But currently in the game, everyone is a caster, and it doesn't really cost them anything to be both a good magic user, and a good melee warrior.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Heh. Looks like Pariden actually got nerfed in the new build. There's a -25% production penalty in place of Attunement which I don't remember being there before. Looks like the Devs agreed with me that Procipinee was Overpowered.

It's probably my fault for going on about how many of the normal building priorities Pariden's abilities let you bypass. That'll teach me.

In this case, I now agree Pariden is iffy. I would never play any faction with the inefficient penalty. It's just too severe in a game where production is currently so important. Although Enchanters still makes it almost worth it, because scrying pools rock under the current essence system.

Now the only other stock faction with both the almighty Air and Life schools is Tarth. Ugh. Looks like custom for me.

[edit]Oh snap, it looks like spell schools now cost 2 points in sov creation. Awesome. Looks like I might get my wish for rarer spells school, and having to pay more of a price to be good at both melee and magic.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting seanw3,

reply 51

I have been following this post a bit and it seems like the core problem is with magic users. Procipinee is according to the lore a magic user. If her ingame talents are geared towards melee, she needs to be changed. I personally give her crown to a fighter as it doesn't help her to use it. The hole in gameplay is that a mage is only great at being a mage later in the game. The early game offers no strong mage tactics other than fire and even that requires level 2 spellbook. Mage Sovs need some staves that allow them to be relevant in battle. Procipinee should start the game with a fire staff that does about 4 fire damage with no Initiative penalty. She can still cast her magics, but also has a low damage ranged attack. All mage Sovs need something like this to start. Then random loot needs to have a few more spell staff options to carry things on. It would also be nice to see them in quests, though that fire longbow is a decent prize too for an escort service. Pariden is best at life, water and air magic. Those are really only good for fighters, not mages. With a full army it works fine. With a small army and a weak mage Sov, it doesn't work. As a beta tester I would say there is a significant hole in the early game here. Later on Pariden gets really strong because of magic books, scrying pools, and teleport. I still think the progression needs to see some balancing. Really the problems with Pariden stem from other areas of the game that are imbalanced.

If I were to fix it, I would combine the Summoner trait with Warlock. So you get more powerful summons and that bonus to magic damage. Procipinee would get Life, Air, Fire to start. She needs fire to stand a chance as a mage. Her crown would work the same, but I would add in some new unit enchantments for casters. Then Attunement would get a boost to +6 Mana per turn. That is admittedly alot, but it is also needed to cast lots of magic. New levels of spellbooks would be near guaranteed. The difference would be that each one would have a harsher level requirement. Level 2 books would have a level 2 prereq. Level 3 would have a level 6 prereq. Level 4 would have a level 8 prereq and level 5 would be way up at level 12. You would always get a chance at levelup to choose these. Then I would add alot of new spells to even things out. The theme of magics would be the same, but you would get more choices on how to spend your mana to fit your strategy. Add new levels of summons for each spellbook. Add the staves I mentioned above. Allow the unit to cast a spell and create a staff of that magic type. Add new magical items unlocked in the tech tree for heroes only.

ddd888 makes alot of good points in this thread. Bingjack points out some areas where ddd888's analysis is not entirely accurate. Looking at both sides pinpoints the exact area of the game that is flawed. The real question is whether or not the devs are planning to address these issues in beta 5.

good analysis

about combining warlock with summoner dunno

i really like the idea of having 2 totally differen playstyles with magnar being a hard nuker, ceresa and proci summoner

ceresa should work debuffing enemies and fighting with shadow magic while proci should be more supportive buffer, improving summons to tank/deal dmg instead of doing her alone

but yeah, like you say we have to understand what plans stardock has(anyway not hard to mod i think)

Successfully updated karma reason!

So a recent thread on Natural Leader got me thinking about this sovereign/faction and, sorry to pile on ya, but this vastly underrates Lord Relias. Assuming the Quest Map bug is fixed so that you don't get stuck with dud quests, I'd go as far as to say that Lord Relias might either at the top or at least contending with those in the lead.

Why? The synergy.

Let's start off with Natural Leader and the free champions. You're at a rather large advantage here as you can accumulate a rather sizable force of champions if you pursue the hero line early and reach them before your rivals. Now, in most cases, these additional heroes would prove to be dead weight as they cannot level effectively (although higher level ones would start somewhat decent). This is not a problem for Altar who, thanks to Wanderlust and Quest Maps, may produce in theory an infinite number of quests and thus XP isn't nearly as limited for them. Quests also tend to have the benefit of providing other resources like gold or items.

Then you have Air discipline. As Bingjack has already covered, this is one of the better Schools in the game, and your heroes will benefit from great Dodge while your units get bonus initiative.

Speaking of units, yours can level rather fast, gaining +10% xp by default and having a unique perk to raise it further. Now, this is by itself a very minor thing, because of course there's only so much to level on and.. OH WAIT. Quest Maps to the rescue again. But that's just a minor thing right? It's not like you'll be hitting up quests every moment of.. hold on. Don't we have a ton of extra champions laying around due to Natural Leader?

HOLD ON. Don't we have the faction trait 'Heroic', which grants us +1 FACTION PRESTIGE and +50 Influence per quest we complete? Do you see where I'm going with this? Lord Relias's faction provides a unique opportunity to snowball into an unstoppable warmachine of heroes while in the process making it so that all their cities level much much faster AND rake in massive influence. Arm heroes with the relatively early Lightning Hammers and their level will do most of the work to raise ATK. And then you have Henchmen. And more.

Does anyone disagree? Because from my vantage point, Relias is one of the best options right now.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Relias would be one of the major factions if Henchmen were less buggy. Those little guys add alot to an army, but I have trouble making custom versions of them to suit my style. The problem is that they have a weak blood trait, a weak weapon trait, a late game quest trait, and an early game defense against fire. That doesn't add up to most powerful faction. Making the blood better and perhaps giving them an entire set of special armor would set them up to be a powerhouse. That is assuming a fully customizable Henchmen is possible with grouping abilities.

As to the mage specializations, I agree. Separate traits for nukes and summoners is a good idea, I was just doing some triage to have a simple solution for mage power. I would like each Sov trait to get some new abilities. As we analyze Sovs, it becomes all the more apparent blood, Sov and faction traits are not well balanced. Many Sov traits belong as faction abilities. Many blood traits are weak, but compensated by extremely powerful faction abilities. Some order needs to come to this area so that custom factions and Sovs can make as much sense as the vanilla ones.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting seanw3,

reply 58

While bugs do sorta spoil Relias atm, you're not seeing the full potential here. I'm testing my theories right now and with a single quest complete I'm using the 50 influence to bring in nearly 500 gold (although I also split it for some of Pariden's tech). This is 1/2 of the Wealthy bonus with a single quest, and I still have 2 weaker quests nearby, and then if I can't find more I've trained heroes for Quest Maps. I'll continue testing but Heroic itself makes the faction incredible imo.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I've only used Relias a couple of times and I agree with you Madcatter, it is very easy to really milk those quest maps and level up Relias like crazy. I don't even think he needs the henchmen really. Buying up all the champs for free is very useful too but the big thing is the quest maps

Successfully updated karma reason!

The quest thing is probably in danger of being nerfed unless it can be reigned in. The AI doesn't buy shop items well yet. It also doesn't see the quest milking strategy. I will have to try that.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting DGB246,

reply 60

like i explained quest problem is that you get quests too high against which you could struggle, at start

his unique gear sux long way, he is VERY weak as a fighter himself

so basically it depends on finding top champions that would allow him to steamroll everything, and that is what i call flaw mechanic, in some way

i mean every sovereign could do that, if i design a sovereign with all weaknesses and i find the best champions i can steamroll everything anyway, so its not a peculiar thing of relias

but i agree that given the chance and once you started questing then you can become unstoppable, but you guys seem to have never tried in real games, ai is not always dumb

there arent questing and exploring only

if you are at war you need an army, basic henchmen dont seem enough tbh

anyway i didnt try with new patch so its subject to changes, for who tried last build how are new henchmen? what purpose they serve better? do you think they need to come with you exploring or what?

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Madcatter,

reply 59

Quoting seanw3, reply 58Relias would be one of the major factions if Henchmen were less buggy. Those little guys add alot to an army, but I have trouble making custom versions of them to suit my style. The problem is that they have a weak blood trait, a weak weapon trait, a late game quest trait, and an early game defense against fire. That doesn't add up to most powerful faction. Making the blood better and perhaps giving them an entire set of special armor would set them up to be a powerhouse. That is assuming a fully customizable Henchmen is possible with grouping abilities.

While bugs do sorta spoil Relias atm, you're not seeing the full potential here. I'm testing my theories right now and with a single quest complete I'm using the 50 influence to bring in nearly 500 gold (although I also split it for some of Pariden's tech). This is 1/2 of the Wealthy bonus with a single quest, and I still have 2 weaker quests nearby, and then if I can't find more I've trained heroes for Quest Maps. I'll continue testing but Heroic itself makes the faction incredible imo.

the problem is its all random

in half my games ALL i have as quest is 2 weak and 1 medium

sometimes i have less

ofc when you start well you can steamroll, but any other leader given the same good start would just do better

thats the point of comparing, like i said many many times there is absolutely no problem to win the game, win the game is easy with EVERYONE, the point is just comparing things, in my understanding of the game and tries the condition to make relias snowball would make anyone snowball, anyone who would also be MUCH MUCH stronger (basically everyone is stronger than relias as figher, even procipinee )

but im curious to test new henchmen and their funcionality

Successfully updated karma reason!

MisterAedan

Join Date 11/2007

Quoting seanw3,

reply 58

Quoting ddd888,

reply 62

anyway i didnt try with new patch so its subject to changes, for who tried last build how are new henchmen? what purpose they serve better? do you think they need to come with you exploring or what?

Henchmen have been better so far in my current game - they can have mounts at any rate, I haven't tested everything yet as I only just unlocked them. From my experience even using the bugged ones, they get quite powerful once you have levelled up a bit & offloaded spare magic weapons on them. They can level very fast & don't seem to suck XP away from heroes (or at least, hero+henchman level faster than two heroes together).

I've designed two mounted henchman classes now, the Ranger (mounted scout) and the Captain (defence-boosting cavalry commander, in anticipation of when I have the techs to field knights). I have another in mind, the Mayor, who I'm planning to quest with until level 4, get Path of the Governer, and then dump in my cities to help with construction and defence, freeing up my heroes for the front line. Time will tell how well they perform, but I'm optimistic.

The quest maps, converesely, haven't always paid off as they used to sometimes spawn broken quests - haven't yet seen if this has been fixed.

Relias can also become something of a badass once his air & fire magic gets levelled up - the tactical and strategic teleports and fire elemental are useful for everyone, but level 4 air also means he can teleport around the map pursuing quests, so I make it a priority.

I've always done well with Altarians even with all the bugs. They & Yithril are my two favourite factions so far.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting ddd888,

reply 62

but i agree that given the chance and once you started questing then you can become unstoppable, but you guys seem to have never tried in real games, ai is not always dumb

there arent questing and exploring only

if you are at war you need an army, basic henchmen dont seem enough tbh

Trying it in a Large/Hard game with all sovereigns active on the map. Going in a straight up production/research match, no war, I was neck and neck with the powerboard's leaders until Yithril started to run away recently. It's turn 184, Lord Relias is now LV28 (those leveling changes really helped ) and I've got another Champion at level 15 which is still quite a bit higher than the next highest sovereign (Irane at LV11). My prestige is 35 (~20 of that is from doing quests), divided among 5 cities for a base growth of +7 per turn (would be less than half that without the Heroic bonus). My Influence is over 800 even after spending a bunch early on. I have a unit of 14lv Lightning Hammer cavalry, group of 5, with 130 Attack. Now, while other races might be able to do a lot of the same things, I've never had this much growth with them, and I'd like to think the +35% combined Altaran xp blood/trait combined with the monsters from questing allowed those riders to reach their level much faster than would've been possible with another sovereign who'd get less XP and had to run around looking for fights instead of summoning them with Quest Maps. Now if only those dud quest spawns would get fixed...

Successfully updated karma reason!

yeah i finish my game with proci and new leveling is veeery fast now

i got her to lvl 24 i think (btw she is a weak mage even at that lvl lol )

proci 951 is INCREDIBLY OP, she was buffed in a unthinkable way lol

apart from the empire being superior to anything new water elemental is REALLY strong

combine haste+slow+frostthing from ice elemental and if you are facing a big solo monster he wont move and i could kill slags really soon (until he 1 shot the elemental ofc)

i wont update since the major buff is already changed in 952

ai in general seems too much submissive as for now, i never got attacked and didnt really bother to keep a good relationship

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Bingjack,

reply 40

You seem to have a very narrow definition of what it means to be a "mage". You seem to define mage as a nuker, but a mage is anyone who uses magic to achieve their goals. It is possible to make a sovereign without magic, you know. Gandalf didn't throw fireballs at people. He used his will to buff himself up, and kick ass. Sauron was the most powerful wizard on the planet, and he armored up and knocked people silly (in the movie, anyway).

In classical roleplaying there are all sorts of magic users. Support casters, buffers, control, nuke. If you define a characters usefulness by their nuking ability, then no. Procipinee is not the best nuker. She's better, frankly, and she keeps getting better as the game goes on.

the op clearly does NOT define mages as nukers.

He instead focuses on the way they are "intended" to play according to the developers (as can be seen from initial point distribution and plot descriptions).

Magic can be used for only 2 things that are useful, it can be used to buff your melee tank champion/sov. Or it can be used for nuking. That is a balance problem. And the op correctly points out that trying to play what is clearly "summoner" sovs as summoners does not work.

However, the claim that fire is the only school worth taking is flawed because a supertank sov soloing everything single handedly is far more useful then a blasty mage type who burns all his precious mana on a single battle.

A proper sov avoids wasting picks on magic ranks and gets his buffs from champions. If you are really min maxing it, he spends points on getting life 3 book so he can eat the souls of his champions to steal their magic powers. However, this is clearly also touched upon by the op in his LORD MARKIN analysis.

The best sov's are of course the custom ones where you get to min max properly. But the op is clearly not trying to min max to the max, rather the is trying to play sovs "as intended" in "varying roles"

Successfully updated karma reason!

thnx you got the points right

anyway i was a bit too much fond of fire

after extensive more testing and playing and modding i have to say death is far more op as nuking (even though ceresa traits arent that good)

in my modded version i have nerfed a lot death aoe in fact (fire is balanced from the fact with my actual playsettings is impossibe to lvl up very fast)

as for caster vs melee (tank more likely) well one of the problems is still mana is too random, essence contributed to make it even more random, so apart from proci who swim in mana the others are often limited by mana, maybe many of them could kill everything easy IF they had X mana to spend every fight, that is not possible always, and when a mage has no mana he has not many alternatives

the fix to tanks being too op is quite easy anyway, how im playing now tanks are needed but cant solo much, buffing monsters solve this problem, tanks after the start take some dmg, if not helped by mages with buffs or nukes they cant make it

Successfully updated karma reason!

My old suggestion was to split units into "hero" "army" and "AoE" IIRC with equivalents for monsters. Significantly increase the QUANTITY of enemies in an army/swarm.

With the sov and champions being developable as either a hero or AoE (or a hybrid that is master of neither). as well as some of the greatest monsters (dragons and elemental lords should also be hero/AoE hybrids)

Heroes deal massive damage but only to 1 unit. AoE deal small damage but to all units in a tile.

So your hero deals 500 damage, but it can only kill ONE out of 500 units in a army/swarm stack per attack. the AoE deals 10 damage to EACH of those 500.

So an army of 500 units is highly effective against a hero because he needs 500 rounds to kill them. While an AoE type char can kill them in 1-3 attacks (depending on power of course) and have defenses against large groups (via spells reducing the damage of an individual attack or being a highly resiliant dragon or somesuch).

Heroes annihilate AoE types though. And of course, heroes could kill heroes and armies can kill armies. That would require mixed armies...

Also as of 0.952 XP is split based on how many units you have (or at least how many champions. Killing a bear gave my sov 2x the XP when done alone compared to when done along with a champion) so that means a solo sov rules again. It used to be an uberstack when XP was awarded equally without being split at all.

https://forums.elementalgame.com/416819

People threw a hissy fit at my calling it "rock paper scissors" approach though and called for mixed unit tactics which was EXACTLY what I actually called for. And incorrectly cited gal civ as a rock paper scissors game (it isn't).

Successfully updated karma reason!

balancing xp is really hard but i think the actual system is correct

xp need to be split

what is wrong in this system is the strenght of things

monsters should be MUCH MUCH more stronger

the incentive to grouping shouldnt be the gain/fight but the actual possibilty to win the fight

you should group because otherwise you cant kill what you encounter

like i said modding monsters works quite well, in the games im testing now i dont even consider going around in solo, the more the merrier! (ofc it depends on the champion i find and if i develop or not the army)

Successfully updated karma reason!