RavenX

Join Date 10/2008

+194

A Talk with Frogboy on making HUGE Map Sizes

Thanks Brad, you're The Man!!!

I was lucky enough to catch a few minutes of Frogboy's spare time this morning and he shared some Amazing info on how we can make Custom Map Sizes of ANY SIZE by defining it in XML. Seriously, how many other multinational CEO's do you know that will take the time out of their busy schedule to sit down and chat with a modder? None that I know of!!! Thanks a lot, Frogboy. Again you prove to us all who the best and hardest working CEO in the business really is

For all those itching to know what you have to do, here's a copy of the conversation (posted with Frogboy's permission)

[11:41:54 AM] Raven Xavier: Hey chief, sorry to bug you, I know you're busy. Quick question, is it "possible" we'll be getting a Extra Large Map size by or before launch? Thanks in advanced and I won't bug you anymore today
[11:42:26 AM] Brad Wardell: Hi.
[11:42:28 AM] Brad Wardell: Answer: Yes and No.
[11:42:32 AM] Brad Wardell: Yes, there will be crazy large maps
[11:42:39 AM] Brad Wardell: but they won't be randomly generated.
[11:42:43 AM] Brad Wardell: They'll be pre-made.
[11:42:52 AM] Raven Xavier: thats fine, I plan on making mine by hand
[11:43:00 AM] Brad Wardell: You can right now.
[11:43:07 AM] Raven Xavier: Extra Large?
[11:43:11 AM] Brad Wardell: look for something like coremapsizes.xml
[11:43:12 AM] Brad Wardell: or something like that
[11:43:20 AM] Brad Wardell: in the elemental/data/english folder
[11:43:24 AM] Brad Wardell: it's all data driven
[11:43:28 AM] Brad Wardell: you could make an insane sized map
[11:43:33 AM] Brad Wardell: the map sizes are just xml entries.
[11:43:45 AM] Raven Xavier: will do, that's awesome . and that will let me load up a blank of the size I chose in the editor?
[11:44:33 AM] Brad Wardell: cormaps.xml
[11:44:37 AM] Brad Wardell: in the data\english folder
[11:44:40 AM] Brad Wardell: just add your own
[11:47:02 AM] Raven Xavier: another stupid question, if I make a new XML called XL_Map.XML and add in the extra large one, then just leave it in that folder with the rest of them, will the game see it? or should I add it in another folder?
[11:47:30 AM] Raven Xavier: sorry for the newb questions
[11:47:47 AM] Raven Xavier: I found the file though and I'm ready to make a new one
[11:47:53 AM] Raven Xavier: much appreciated
[11:49:04 AM] Brad Wardell: It doesn't care about the file names at all.
[11:49:37 AM] Brad Wardell: As long as the top is called <MapTypes> and ends with </MapTypes> it will be fine
[11:49:41 AM] Brad Wardell: It'd designed to be shared
[11:49:50 AM] Brad Wardell: So you shouldn't ever have to modify an existing file
[11:49:55 AM] Brad Wardell: Just make a new file with new stuf fin it
[11:50:29 AM] Raven Xavier: awesome. thanks a lot chief you're the man I'll leave you alone and let you get back to more important things now. Great Work on everything Btw. Elemental is going to be a SMASH Hit, I just know it.
[11:51:08 AM] Brad Wardell: Raven.xml
[11:51:10 AM] Brad Wardell:

Code: xml
<MapTypes>
  <MapType InternalName="CrazySize">
    <DisplayName>Crazy Size</DisplayName>
    <MapSectorWidth>18</MapSectorWidth>
    <MapSectorHeight>112</MapSectorHeight>
  </MapType>
 </MapTypes>

[11:51:12 AM] Brad Wardell: voila
[11:51:13 AM] Brad Wardell: oops
[11:51:16 AM] Brad Wardell: make that sectorheigh 12
[11:51:19 AM] Brad Wardell: not 112
[11:51:28 AM] Brad Wardell:

Code: xml
<MapTypes>
  <MapType InternalName="CrazySize">
    <DisplayName>Crazy Size</DisplayName>
    <MapSectorWidth>18</MapSectorWidth>
    <MapSectorHeight>12</MapSectorHeight>
  </MapType>
 </MapTypes>

[11:52:23 AM] Raven Xavier: Wow...that's awesome can't believe you whipped that up just like that. Thanks again, Bred. you rock man
[11:52:32 AM] Raven Xavier: *Brad
[11:52:33 AM] Brad Wardell: just copied and pasted
[11:53:14 AM] Raven Xavier: the InternalName is just what it will be displayed as in the editor when I pick my size right?
[11:53:21 AM] Brad Wardell: No
[11:53:25 AM] Brad Wardell: The display name
[11:53:40 AM] Raven Xavier: yes, like Small, Tiny, etc etc
[11:53:50 AM] Raven Xavier: when I'm chosing the size to make a blank map
[11:53:51 AM] Brad Wardell: just loaded it up in the map editor
[11:53:53 AM] Brad Wardell: watch this
[11:54:03 AM] Brad Wardell: i had to put it into the english directory
[11:54:14 AM] Raven Xavier: kk
[11:54:49 AM] Brad Wardell: We need a loading screen on the map editor
[11:55:17 AM] Raven Xavier: yeah, something to let people know it's loading and not stalled because their system is a little slow
[11:55:31 AM] Raven Xavier: hasn't been a problem for me, but then again it loads quick on my system
[11:56:01 AM] Raven Xavier: you want a still pic or something with a loading bar?
[11:56:24 AM] Raven Xavier: I can whip up a pic from Elemental stock in 10-15 minutes in photoshop if you want
[11:56:35 AM] Raven Xavier: I have CS4
[11:56:51 AM] Brad Wardell: Hmm
[11:56:54 AM] Brad Wardell: I may need a mapstyle in there
[11:57:08 AM] Raven Xavier: explain pls
[11:57:16 AM] Raven Xavier: mapstyle, like a pic for the icon?
[11:57:25 AM] Raven Xavier: or a new Xml
[11:57:31 AM] Brad Wardell: no, just open up coremaps.xml you'll see what i mean
[11:57:52 AM] Raven Xavier: got it open now, looking
[11:58:07 AM] Raven Xavier: ahh I see
[12:01:01 PM] Raven Xavier: looks like every maptype needs a coresponding mapstyle as well
[12:01:08 PM] Raven Xavier: at least all the ones listed do
[12:01:21 PM] Brad Wardell:

Code: xml
 <MapTypes>
  <MapType InternalName="CrazySize">
    <DisplayName>Crazy Size</DisplayName>
    <MapSectorWidth>18</MapSectorWidth>
    <MapSectorHeight>12</MapSectorHeight>
    <MapStyle InternalName="OneContinent">
      <DisplayName>Single Continent</DisplayName>
      <SmallSpawnSizeMin>12</SmallSpawnSizeMin>
      <SmallSpawnSizeMax>16</SmallSpawnSizeMax>
      <MediumSpawnSizeMin>3</MediumSpawnSizeMin>
      <MediumSpawnSizeMax>6</MediumSpawnSizeMax>
      <HugeSpawnSizeMin>2</HugeSpawnSizeMin>
      <HugeSpawnSizeMax>3</HugeSpawnSizeMax>
      <LinkedSeedPercentage>100</LinkedSeedPercentage>
   
   <NumMountainsMin>2</NumMountainsMin>
   <NumMountainsMax>4</NumMountainsMax>
   <NumForestsMin>2</NumForestsMin>
   <NumForestsMax>4</NumForestsMax>
   <NumRiversMin>3</NumRiversMin>
   <NumRiversMax>6</NumRiversMax>
    </MapStyle>
  </MapType>
 </MapTypes>

[12:02:48 PM] Brad Wardell: Tjat wprled
[12:02:53 PM] Brad Wardell: so now I have an 18 x 12 map
[12:03:06 PM] Raven Xavier: very sweet, I just dropped it in and was about to fire it up and see
[12:03:23 PM] Brad Wardell: choose blank map
[12:03:27 PM] Brad Wardell: and no objects
[12:03:28 PM] Brad Wardell: so that it's fresh
[12:03:38 PM] Brad Wardell: also remmember the + and - keys on the keypad to select the cursor size
[12:03:44 PM] Brad Wardell: makes putting land down a lot quicker
[12:04:31 PM] Raven Xavier: indeed I swear I tried the ones on the num pa the first time before the second patch yesterday and it didn't work, but after the patch it works fine. maybe I justs didn't restart enough after the patch or something.
[12:05:14 PM] Raven Xavier: is it ok if I post on the forums about our little talk here? would be very cool.

[12:05:25 PM] Brad Wardell: sure thing
[12:05:25 PM] Raven Xavier: don't *want to get
[12:05:27 PM] Brad Wardell: I just made it insaner
[12:05:44 PM] Raven Xavier: awesome , thanks Brad, I really appreciate this. you really are the best CEO in the industry
[12:05:48 PM] Brad Wardell: raven.xml
[12:05:50 PM] Brad Wardell:

Code: xml
<MapTypes>
  <MapType InternalName="CrazySize">
    <DisplayName>Crazy Size</DisplayName>
    <MapSectorWidth>28</MapSectorWidth>
    <MapSectorHeight>21</MapSectorHeight>
    <MapStyle InternalName="OneContinent">
      <DisplayName>Single Continent</DisplayName>
      <SmallSpawnSizeMin>12</SmallSpawnSizeMin>
      <SmallSpawnSizeMax>16</SmallSpawnSizeMax>
      <MediumSpawnSizeMin>3</MediumSpawnSizeMin>
      <MediumSpawnSizeMax>6</MediumSpawnSizeMax>
      <HugeSpawnSizeMin>2</HugeSpawnSizeMin>
      <HugeSpawnSizeMax>3</HugeSpawnSizeMax>
      <LinkedSeedPercentage>100</LinkedSeedPercentage>
   
   <NumMountainsMin>2</NumMountainsMin>
   <NumMountainsMax>4</NumMountainsMax>
   <NumForestsMin>2</NumForestsMin>
   <NumForestsMax>4</NumForestsMax>
   <NumRiversMin>3</NumRiversMin>
   <NumRiversMax>6</NumRiversMax>
    </MapStyle>
  </MapType>
 </MapTypes>

Seriously, is that Awesome or what? A Step by Step Walkthrough Straight from The Man Him-self!!!

Locked Post +1 Karma

Advanced Search

Watch this post

Do not email me updates for this post Email me updates for this post

Successfully updated karma reason!

MagicwillNZ

That is awesome.

Even more awesome how easy it is once you know how.

This is getting scary.

Successfully updated karma reason!

nice, going to make a crazy crazy crazy mega large map or the max that doesn't crash.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Awesome!

One thing this tells me is that we need a Mod-Wiki, not only to document where/how to edit things, but also what all of these data types actually translate to. For example, I have no idea what any of those numbers in the XML actually do, except you make larger numbers for larger maps haha.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Thx for sharing & thx @ Froggy for telling us

Successfully updated karma reason!

some how this thread is going to cause the death of my computer or a golden age of map making...

Successfully updated karma reason!

kyogre12

Join Date 07/2008

+100

Excellent! I was actually planning to dig through the map XML today to see if it was possible to make bigger maps, but this saves me the trouble

Successfully updated karma reason!

Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2394

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting KillzEmAllGod,

reply 2

nice, going to make a crazy crazy crazy mega large map or the max that doesn't crash.

The first one I loaded up in the 20's didn't do too well on stability. Perhaps when those memory issues Frogboy mentions are smoothed over, but even on my 6Gigs of memory system it didn't last long. I'm trying a 12x12 right now and it seems fine. For some reason even when I assign the numbers in XML to be 12x12 it comes out to 14x14 in actual squares, so somewhere or somehow two extra squares seem to be added to the size. 14x14 seems to be a good starting point for Kyrnn though, so I'm happy .

I'm going to run some basic tests by mapping out just the land mass with no details to see how everything will fit. I'll know part way through if this will be big enough or if I'll need to up the space a little bit.

The coolest thing is, between now and release (and after) is that memory and stability are only going to get better and better. There really are no limits here aside from the Hardware limits of the systems running it. Way to go Stardock

Quoting SpaghettiMon,

reply 3

Awesome!

One thing this tells me is that we need a Mod-Wiki, not only to document where/how to edit things, but also what all of these data types actually translate to. For example, I have no idea what any of those numbers in the XML actually do, except you make larger numbers for larger maps haha.

The number values assign sizes to the map sectors and assign the number of different kinds of spawns like spawns for land types. Still, when making a big map, for right now leave everything blank like Frogboy says. He says so in his original modding post as well. Something or other because of a kink that's being worked out in the generation systems. Custom doing the whole thing is the way to go anyway

Quoting Wylaryzel,

reply 4

Thx for sharing & thx @ Froggy for telling us

Quoting KillzEmAllGod,

reply 5

some how this thread is going to cause the death of my computer or a golden age of map making...

Both lol

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Frogboy,

reply 7

Awesome Vid chief

Successfully updated karma reason!

These extra-large map sizes are where we're going to see issues between 32-bit and 64-bit systems, wrt memory usage.

Pretty sure large maps were indicated as one reason they wanted to have 64-bit support early on in development, though I haven't looked for that post (from sometime last year, I suppose).

On a related note, is it possible to have multiple maps as part of a game, and transition between those maps with game state saved between transitions? The concept is to have a set of maps linked, becoming a tapestry of maps that can be added and connected as needed. An approach familiar to those that have played on or developed multi-server persistent worlds for Neverwinter Nights.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Aesir Rising,

reply 10

I was a map maker on a NwN Shard called "Tales of Illuvitar" for a while that was a UO server before that. We had Map in Map functionality there but I don't remember there being a save state behind it, more of an area transition. We would make a "Master Map" or an area, then make smaller maps and attach them to the Master map with area transitions on the entrances and exits. I don't have a clue where to begin incorporating a system like that here though.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Man that is cool, talking to the man himself! Talk about customer support, I am spoiled now on other game companies! To my knowledge there is no other company that is this open or responsive! This really helped to lighten my mood today, thanks ! I still want a cigarette though , quitting smoking is no fun!!!!

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Raven X,

reply 11

Quoting Aesir Rising, reply 10On a related note, is it possible to have multiple maps as part of a game, and transition between those maps with game state saved between transitions? The concept is to have a set of maps linked, becoming a tapestry of maps that can be added and connected as needed. An approach familiar to those that have played on or developed multi-server persistent worlds for Neverwinter Nights.

I was a map maker on a NwN Shard called "Tales of Illuvitar" for a while that was a UO server before that. We had Map in Map functionality there but I don't remember there being a save state behind it, more of an area transition. We would make a "Master Map" or an area, then make smaller maps and attach them to the Master map with area transitions on the entrances and exits. I don't have a clue where to begin incorporating a system like that here though.

I'm curious about this too, because one thing I've wanted to do with some mod ideas in my head is create dungeons with an overworld map.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Raven X:

That sounds more like the built-in NWN map transition (at least how I'm reading your description). Nothing special there as far as game data saves - it just happened.

I'm talking more about the persistent worlds that ran multiple interconnected servers. Some examples include Exaria (two servers), the Avlis and CoPaP servers (dozen or more...iirc) and ALFA (many servers). When a character transitioned from one physical server running a module to a different server running a (technically) separate module, a 3rd party database/server connector such as NWNX stored variables about that character in mysql (or whatever database you wanted, I suppose), including a link the character file itself, inventory items, equipped items, etc. To the player, the transitiion was much like a normal map area transition, though it took slightly longer.

Applying the same concept here for Elemental, one map maker could create a continent, another could do the same, and a player could take his/her character and run between them as if they were part of the same game. The possibilities then are magnified, since different modders and teams can work concurrently to create an incredibly large "world" of maps without needing a terabyte or two of RAM to load one single monstrously huge map world. If there is interest in modding Elemental into an full-on RPG (and there is interest, based on what I'm seeing) this would help tremendously speed up the process of creating incredibly large and long-running adventures.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting SpaghettiMon,

reply 13

I'm curious about this too, because one thing I've wanted to do with some mod ideas in my head is create dungeons with an overworld map.

There is one way I can think to do it now, but, it's a slight trade off. Make the Map for the New Location a Tactical Map and assign that map to a specific spot on the world map. When the player steps on that spot they enter combat and when the tactical map loads up it can be the interior of a dungeon or building.

The "Trade Off" is if you make a huge dungeon the player will be forced to wander around in it on a turn based level as that's how tactical combat works. Still, it's something I'm thinking about using in the DL Mod unless we get a way to load a map within a map by then.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Raven X,

reply 15

Quoting SpaghettiMon, reply 13
I'm curious about this too, because one thing I've wanted to do with some mod ideas in my head is create dungeons with an overworld map.

There is one way I can think to do it now, but, it's a slight trade off. Make the Map for the New Location a Tactical Map and assign that map to a specific spot on the world map. When the player steps on that spot they enter combat and when the tactical map loads up it can be the interior of a dungeon or building.

The "Trade Off" is if you make a huge dungeon the player will be forced to wander around in it on a turn based level as that's how tactical combat works. Still, it's something I'm thinking about using in the DL Mod unless we get a way to load a map within a map by then.

True, I guess I could use tactical maps. Hopefully I'll be able to make some decent sized and interesting things with it. One thing though, can I make a tactical map spawn within a tactical map (if not through XML, then at least with python)? I'm also a sucker for multi-leveled dungeons, or secret passages, etc. Think Diablo.

There may be a way to turn off the turn based stuff with python too. If not, it's not a HUGE deal, because then I could make it play like the old school Fallout games.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Aesir Rising,

reply 14

Raven X:

That sounds more like the built-in NWN map transition (at least how I'm reading your description). Nothing special there as far as game data saves - it just happened.

I'm talking more about the persistent worlds that ran multiple interconnected servers. Some examples include Exaria (two servers), the Avlis and CoPaP servers (dozen or more...iirc) and ALFA (many servers). When a character transitioned from one physical server running a module to a different server running a (technically) separate module, a 3rd party database/server connector such as NWNX stored variables about that character in mysql (or whatever database you wanted, I suppose), including a link the character file itself, inventory items, equipped items, etc. To the player, the transition was much like a normal map area transition, though it took slightly longer.

Ahh ok, I see what you mean now, yes. On Tales we had two or three servers but not for different maps. All the maps were handled on one server as far as I know. Our other servers were running a active weather system (really impressive for a free NwN shard) and some spawn servers. I didn't do any of the coding or anything, all I did was make maps. I didn't even have to add in spawns as that was handled by our coder, though I did put in Boss Monsters that I created. Once I made a HUGE Labyrinth with a Liche in the center of the bottom level. It was awesome watching players go through it. I had a handful of favorite players I would use to test my maps on. I'd get ahold of them then host the map myself on my system and have them join the game and run through it. Players would get lost for hours in the labyrinth, man it was awesome....*sigh* Good Times, Good Times

On a side note, I can't even remember the name of the map now. I know I named it after the Liche I put in it and the quest I formed around it. From what I understood it became really popular in the community even after I stopped being a GM. I want to say I called it "The *blank* Crypt" with *blank* being the Liche's name but it was so long ago now it's really hard to recall. I think I was going by the name GM Oberon on Tales (Tales of Illuvitar) and I know I attached the GM name I used at the time to the map. It was either GM Oberon or GM Thanatos, one of the two.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Really, the first step in making awesome sized maps of epicness that'll take months to finish. Yes.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Am I missing something here? I copy-pasted the XML code (removing the line numbers/# signs) and saved the file as "LA_MapSizes.xml". I put it into My Games\Elemental\Units, and have "Use mods" checked in the Options menu. Yet when I go to the map editor, only the standard sizes appear--this one doesn't. Are there any other settings I have to mess around with?

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Lord_Agamemnon,

reply 19

Which one did you copy?

Here's the one I'm using now:

Code: xml
<MapTypes>
  <MapType InternalName="CrazySize">
    <DisplayName>Crazy Size</DisplayName>
    <MapSectorWidth>12</MapSectorWidth>
    <MapSectorHeight>12</MapSectorHeight>
    <MapStyle InternalName="OneContinent">
      <DisplayName>Single Continent</DisplayName>
      <SmallSpawnSizeMin>12</SmallSpawnSizeMin>
      <SmallSpawnSizeMax>16</SmallSpawnSizeMax>
      <MediumSpawnSizeMin>3</MediumSpawnSizeMin>
      <MediumSpawnSizeMax>6</MediumSpawnSizeMax>
      <HugeSpawnSizeMin>2</HugeSpawnSizeMin>
      <HugeSpawnSizeMax>3</HugeSpawnSizeMax>
      <LinkedSeedPercentage>100</LinkedSeedPercentage>
   
   <NumMountainsMin>2</NumMountainsMin>
   <NumMountainsMax>4</NumMountainsMax>
   <NumForestsMin>2</NumForestsMin>
   <NumForestsMax>4</NumForestsMax>
   <NumRiversMin>3</NumRiversMin>
   <NumRiversMax>6</NumRiversMax>
    </MapStyle>
  </MapType>
 </MapTypes>

I made a new XML file and named it "CoreMapsCrazySize.XML" and droped it in the C:\Program Files (x86)\Stardock Games\Elemental\data\English folder. It should show up when you're picking the size to make a new map in the editor. Also, when generating the map make sure you start with everything blank.

Successfully updated karma reason!