Sovereign Reincarnation (a Look at death?)

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I remember long and vast discussions on this matter back then but nothing along these lines was seriously discussed. Your idea is refreshing, still it shows a few problems:

It implies dualism; you either accept the killing of foreign Sovereigns as end game or makes impossible for factions to vanish. If you accept dualism, you favour privileges to players close to the point of cheating. If you don't, you break the game;
It goes against the lore so far. Sovereigns aren't immortal, they are just very, very long lived. If someone kills a Sovereign and his essence is scattered and then reunited, what stops it from being truly immortal? If you can't destroy a creature, do you expect it to die from old age?
The whole succession business goes null; what is the point of swapping lands if the fella will eventually come back with vengeance? Under these pretenses, a Sovereign feud will be his forever and ever until someone grabs all his land and forces him to scatter and reform every couple of years.

So far, the question of what to do when a Sovereign dies, if it dies, has not been properly answered yet. Should there be internal succession? Should the Sovereign never die? Should heroes take control? Should a mini-game be made to control succession? Should his lands be simply divided by close relatives? No one knows. Last we heard from Stardock was disappointing, with no game after Sovereign death and foreign Sovereigns death being merely a way to milk the AI out of territory by bonds of marriage. I was hoping something more complex and beautiful would arise from the trillions of ideas poured into last succession's topic over Dev Journals.

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I like this idea on concept, at face value.

Not sure if it is best for the current implementation of Elemental (namely the unmodded version) although it is certainly an excellent idea, and I wouldn't mind playing with this feature

(and yes, I mean that even AI sovereigns would benefit from this ... And I don't think it breaks the game in this way either)

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i do know that AoW had leaders and when the leaders died it was the end of the game so most of the time we would play without the leaders so that one death wouldn't cause a game loss. from a single player point of veiw the sov death= end game would not be so bad because you could load if you like to. but in a multilayer standpoint it could cause alot of fuss over one battle or one mistake.

on the concept of not losing your sov you could have a tech that you build that allows you to imbue an artifact with your sov's essence so that when he is at deaths door it pulls him inside and slowly regenerates him. they take the city they take your sov's chance at surviving death until you reclaim the city. just an idea.

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Quoting Tasunke,

reply 3

I like this idea on concept, at face value.

Not sure if it is best for the current implementation of Elemental (namely the unmodded version) although it is certainly an excellent idea, and I wouldn't mind playing with this feature

(and yes, I mean that even AI sovereigns would benefit from this ... And I don't think it breaks the game in this way either)

Care to elaborate?

Quoting swordguyj,

reply 4

i do know that AoW had leaders and when the leaders died it was the end of the game so most of the time we would play without the leaders so that one death wouldn't cause a game loss. from a single player point of veiw the sov death= end game would not be so bad because you could load if you like to. but in a multilayer standpoint it could cause alot of fuss over one battle or one mistake.

on the concept of not losing your sov you could have a tech that you build that allows you to imbue an artifact with your sov's essence so that when he is at deaths door it pulls him inside and slowly regenerates him. they take the city they take your sov's chance at surviving death until you reclaim the city. just an idea.

That's is more likely. By turning your Sovereign into an effective lich you avoid breaking the game, at least when it comes to get rid of that pestilent foe of yours. Ironically, it also leads to the starting point: what happens if the enemy destroys the city or kills the Sovereign when holding his Mecca? Will he die and the game will end for that player?

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Well, first of all, it avoids breaking the game because ... even with all the essence in the world, if he doesn't have any cities he will be dead forever.

Secondly, the more powerful he is, the longer it will take for him to regenerate (giving you more time to destroy/ take over his cities) ... and the weaker he is, the more likely he will run out of essence soon

Thirdly, if he runs out of essence, he dies permanently, and each AI death makes that AI sovereign weaker. Its not like you are rewarding them for death, its merely a "mini-death" with its own consequences.

I think this is MUCH favorable to the alternative ... which is that each time you kill him, he "teleports" to the nearest city with no penalty WHAT SO EVER ... and continues to do so until all his cities are gone (or you kill him on his opposite terrain).

In this way, you actually have SOME penalty for dying, and you don't have to make "evading death upon defeat" such a mandatory implementation.

Essentially, with this less extreme choice, you can have defeat upon battle ALWAYS equal death, because while it sucks, its not the end of your game.

//Alternatively, you could still have Evasion, but it being much less likely than 100% occurrence.

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About your points Finneglot let me breakdown some things.

For your first point you are basically going between two extremes, the very point of this method is to avoid extremes and find a balanced penalty. As Tasunke has mentioned having your sovereign die would be a serious problem, especially at later stages. For example at level 2 if you die, you might lose 4 permanent essence and take somewhere around 10 to 20 turns to regenerate. However in the late game where your sovereign is no doubt much more powerful say level 20 if you die you'd lose 40 permanent essence and take 100 to 200 turns to regenerate... No small amount of time.

During this time, you'd be exposed. No essence, no spells, no firepower. However, you wouldn't be utterly helpless seeing as you'd have cities and soldiers still. That being said it would allow a large period of opportunity for a serious campaign against the one whose sovereign has "bit it" so to speak. If you completely crush the Sovereigns faction then its game over, which wouldn't be nearly as hard what with the big man taking a long nap. Or for the alternative if someone is overly careless with their sovereign eventually they will run out of their precious essence and die a death of a more permanent kind so they wouldn't be truly immortal but they wouldn't be as frail an existence as a common man either.

As for succession perhaps you could make it so that evil sovereigns could use their children as a catalyst for their recovery. Increasing regeneration at the cost of their lives.

As for Lore, that's simply a matter of names. Whats the difference between my idea and simply saying well you were "almost" fatally wounded but managed to disappear/teleport away just in time to save your life. However, because of your serious wounds you will need plenty of recovery time and will have you expend some of your own essence to save yourself. Lore is just a matter of wording.

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Quoting swordguyj,

reply 4

on the concept of not losing your sov you could have a tech that you build that allows you to imbue an artifact with your sov's essence so that when he is at deaths door it pulls him inside and slowly regenerates him. they take the city they take your sov's chance at surviving death until you reclaim the city. just an idea.

I like it

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Interesting idea, but it's against the lore, isn't it?

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Wintersong

Join Date 07/2006

+235

Quoting Finneglot,

reply 2

So far, the question of what to do when a Sovereign dies, if it dies, has not been properly answered yet. Should there be internal succession? Should the Sovereign never die? Should heroes take control? Should a mini-game be made to control succession? Should his lands be simply divided by close relatives? No one knows. Last we heard from Stardock was disappointing, with no game after Sovereign death and foreign Sovereigns death being merely a way to milk the AI out of territory by bonds of marriage. I was hoping something more complex and beautiful would arise from the trillions of ideas poured into last succession's topic over Dev Journals.

Sovereign death is a game mechanic as Essence, faction tech tree or something else. Elemental offers us an experience of being the Sovereign and not just some kind of invisible eternal force that leads the faction (a la Civ). So if your character dies, like in any RPG, FPS or Mario, you lose the game. But thanks to some people not liking it, now instead of a mechanic that could potentially create a quick end game phase (and avoid boring cleanup phase), we now need to either be lucky and kill the enemy out of his favored terrain (bad luck in Kingdom vs Kingdom fights) or destroy all of his cities.

There are many good ideas in this forum. It's impossible to please everybody. Stardock can only use some. Should I mention the Economy Camp 1? Be thankful that modding is part of the package.

Quoting Saije,

reply 7

Lore is just a matter of wording.

The ideas behind it are not tough.

The basic and core idea is that if the Sovereign dies, you lose the game (call it RPG rule or whatever). To appease people who don't like it (and for Stardock not offering an option to disable that in sandbox, apparently) we got some various ideas of how to make sure that it was not an easy thing to lose your Sovereign by bad luck or have it too easy (fear to AI not using it properly aside).

The current implementation has that when the battle ends and you lose your Sovereign (can happen even if you win, I swear it), he managed to scape to the nearest city with only 1 health point. I'd call that badly wounded. In difference with the dispersion would be that he can:

move to other places.
use passive skills like Meditative (which are unafected by the wounds).
cast spells (if he still has Essence).
be healed (potions or spells).
take part into battle (he pounced on an enemy nearby or his city was attacked).
have more children (random is random).

He isn't crippled as you can see and except for the need of healing (that could take some turns if no magic or potions is involved), he can still be almost inmediately useful. If Stardock wants the system to be more punishing, they only need to tweak the list mentioned above (altough magical healing is still... magical). Not that Stardock cannot come up with new ideas (like yours) or add extra ones but I think that Stardock walks over thin ice whenever they have to talk to us about this topic.

[They could have gone the old AD&D 2E route and make the Sovereign lose 1 Constitution point each time he dies in battle (or otherwise) and appear in the nearest city too. With the problem that if he reaches 0 Constitution, he dies permanently. With a default Consitution score of 10 (plus possible increases at level up), that's quite a buff to prevent end game "too soon or by bad luck".]

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Quoting Wintersong,

reply 10

Should I mention the Economy Camp 1? Be thankful that modding is part of the package.

Welcome to the "Camp1 Eco FTW" bandwagon. Seriously, we must make a mod team to work on the Camp1 eco system after release. Ok erm....LOOKING FOR PYTHON CODERS!

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As stated the issue has already been discussed at length before.

I find the post idea, or something similar, intresting.

Although SD hasn't yet given a clear answer on whether they could take anything from all the discussions into account, as it stands now with sovereign fleeing to capital with 1 hp if "killed" in friendly lands and dying if killed in enemy lands - not the best solution. I think the penalty for being killed in own land is not serious enough (it happens when you are defeated in battle so you already have around 1 hp, only difference is you go to the capital, heck could even be just what you want in such a situation ...!) And, as discussed before, dying directly in enemy lands is seen as too harsh for some people. Also, as of now, no internal succession apparently. So, hope we can make it the best of both worlds and not the worst of both ...

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I don't have much to say on the specific proposals here, but my general philosophy is that there might as well be serious consequences for losing your sovereign.

Any one who doesn't want to suffer said consequences can (A) keep is sovie safe in his capital, ( start a new campaign, or (C) save often and load almost as often.

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Quoting Lord Cobol,

reply 13

I don't have much to say on the specific proposals here, but my general philosophy is that there might as well be serious consequences for losing your sovereign.

Any one who doesn't want to suffer said consequences can (A) keep is sovie safe in his capital, [B] start a new campaign, or (C) save often and load almost as often.

(D) provide considerations for Multi-Player play as well.

As for the Penalties on Death question, the loss of HP's down to 1, combined with always being returned to your "Capital City" (not the closest as is the case now) should be penalty enough.

Perhaps the HP regen value could be set at .5 points per level, so as the SOV grows in power and HP, it will always take longer and longer to regain his/her "Out and About in the World" capable status.

Given that your Capital city is your first, then depending on map size, it may take some time to walk back , or cost Mana points to Teleport (set to a maximum range of 30 tiles per jump (perhaps)) back to your front line troops.

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If a patent newbie might be permitted to comment, the problem seems to be people falling into two general camps of thought which are diametrically opposed. To wit, when the Sovereign is defeated in battle, either he dies and, literally or effectively, ends the game, or he is somehow removed to a location of relative safety, permitting the game to continue, albeit with the defeated suffering some disadvantage. They both have their appeal, the former making gameplay more decisive (although it might often proceed more slowly due to players being more cautious with their Sovereigns) while the latter gives more opportunities for upsets and reversals of fortune. Neither approach can be said to be definitively superior than the other, so people are trying to find some way to blend the two ideas.

Now, the effects of a Sovereign's defeat will greatly impact how players must operate, but the effects themselves will be a rather small portion of the game that could easily be adjusted at need. That in mind, the best solution, it seems to me, is no solution. Simply allow an option, in setting up a game, to choose which model the players want to use. The specific details of the perma-death and respawn models could also be available for adjustment.

Details of the perma-death model are fairly minimal. If the game ends immediately, that's that. I would suggest in rounds with more than two sides, however, that, so long as at least two Sovereigns remain, sides having lost their Sovereigns remain functional for a time. Those sides could start collapsing inwards as the leadership and direction structure provided by the Sovereign are gone, but they should still be able to influence the course of the game, whether it be by launching suicide attacks to weaken a particular side or offering their remaining land, forces, and resources to be absorbed by another Sovereign's side. The powerful conqueror could find himself abruptly outmatched by an opponent having absorbed the remains of the conqueror's previous victories. This brings in diplomacy as well, since a side devoided of its Sovereign would, reasonably, be more likely to allow itself to be absorbed by a friendly side.

As for wanting a less risky use of the Sovereign, two parts have to be considered: First, what are the exact mechanics? Second, and almost as important, what is the story cover for those mechanics? Of course, the issues may be considered in reverse order, which is the route I took. Being sent somewhere, in some condition, is obviously a requirement to the respawn model, so some sort of story must be concocted to cover it. The idea that a grievously wounded Sovereign could slip away moments before death and get anywhere, much less back to his capital, seems flimsy at best. The consensus seems to be that essence should be lost by defeat, which isn't particularly well explained by the above, either. You could say that the serious wounds cause the Sovereign to lose his metaphysical grasp on part of his essence, but even that feels contrived if winning a battle in which the Sovereign is nearly defeated doesn't cause the same penalty. My version is based on the idea of essence-powered spells, the first and most basic being something akin to Word of Recall. This emergency spell would be precast, binding a certain amount of the Sovereign's essence for use when the spell needed to be triggered. The spell could also contain optional modifications, such as upgrading restoring health, changing the target of the teleportation, pulling friendly units (remaining in the battle or from elsewhere) with the Sovereign, causing damage to enemy units in the battle that defeated the Sovereign, etc. Each option could adjust the amount of essence required for the spell, and the Sovereign could even choose to refrain from using it (the pre-game option to allow respawning could be phrased as "Allow [spell name]:" with a check-box). The essence used for the spell would, of course, be consumed upon triggering the spell, but both the manner in which required essence is determined and exactly what happens to it could be adjustable. For instance, the essence could be removed from the Sovereign's pool functionally, while still impacting things such as the mana cap (assuming it is still tied to essence), being as the essence exists, but simply isn't available for other usage. The amount of essence needed could be determined as a percentage of the Sovereign's total (feasible on the basis of requiring more power to move a more powerful Sovereign), a static amount, or even a combination of both (a percentage for options directly related to moving the Sovereign, and static amounts for things like healing and damage dealing). Last, the used essence could be either permenatly lost or slowly returned over time.

Personally, I would like to see essence completely delinked from the mana cap and treated as a separate resource and as many pre- and in-game options as possible for adjusting the effects of a Sovereign's defeat. Here is the system as I imagine it (all specific phrases, wording, and numbers are just off the top of my head):

Pre-game options:

Check-box for "Allow Emergency Recall [or whatever it might be called]:". (self-explanatory)

"Essence requirement:" and options in the vein of high, medium, or low. (adjusts the amount of essence required for the spell and its options to make their use more or less risky; percentages and flat amounts are both adjusted)

"Permanent essence loss:" and a slider from 0 to 100. (adjusts the percentage of essence used by the spell that will return over time)

"Essence recovery rate:" and slider of high/med/low options. (adjusts how fast the temporarily lost essence returns)

Check-boxes for allowing the various in-game options in the spell. (detailed in the "In-Game options" below)

"Casting frequency:" and a slider from 0 through some arbitrary number. (adjust how often, in turns, the spell can be cast, 0 being unlimited; could be used to decrease the grind of repeatedly crushing an inferior foe)

Allow modifying (lets Sovereigns recast the spell to change its options)

Death options:

Essence dispersal (what happens to the Sovereign's remaining essence when he is killed)

Dissipates (poof, gone)

Distributed evenly (all remaining Sovereigns get an even share)

Distributed by diplomatic relationship (remaining Sovereigns get shares allotted by relationship with the deceased; requires a diplomacy system with enumerated or enumerable relationships)

All to most friendly Sovereign (self-explanatory)

Check-box for "Retain control after death:"

"Ignored orders frequency:" and slider for percentage (commands of all types have a chance to be ignored sing the orders are now emanating from the land's non-Sovereign second-in-command, who is having a hard time maintaining control of a disintegrating side)

"Collapse level:" and slider or high/med/low options (towns farther from the capital have higher chances of defecting to other sides or just going neutral; this is a universal modifier to all towns' chances to break away; indirectly modifies how long a Sovereign-less side can exist, as a lone capital will mutiny, ending the side)

"Max defections per turn:" and slider (self-explanatory)

Check-box for "Allow ceding of towns:" (allows side to give towns to another side that has a Sovereign)

Likewise for forces and resources

In-Game options for the return spell: (essence cost a basic amount pegged to the Sovereign's level plus whatever is required for selected options; essence used for the return spell is simply held in reserve, meaning it still counts toward the Sovereign's total essence but is not available for any other uses; whenever a required essence amount is updated after the return spell is cast, like the Sovereign leveling up, the required addition is removed from the Sovereign's pool and a notice to that effect is given; insufficient essence to cover the change will collapse the return spell, requiring it to be recast)

Return to selected city (sends defeated Sovereign to the selected city instead of to the capital, closest city, or wherever the default is; percentage essence cost)

Healing (could be handled lots of ways: selectable flat amounts, selectable percentages, fixed percentage, amounts or percentages pegged to level, etc.; essence cost depends on those)

Pull surviving units with Sovereign (teleports remaining friendly units, strongest first, in battle along with the Sovereign; selectable flat amount of units to bring; essence cost a flat amount pegged to the number of units allowed for)

Pull unit to Sovereign (selects a unit to be teleported to the Sovereign's upon his emergency return; can be added multiple times for different units; essence cost a flat amount pegged to the unit's stats in some way)

Parting shot (two versions, probably just have one available; essence cost could be all over the place)

Direct damage (simply deals out damage to remaining enemies when the Sovereign is defeated; essence cost based on compounding costs from sub-options)

Number of targets (maximum number of enemies that can be hit; could simply be all or damage spread evenly)

"Target strongest", "Target most valuable", or "Target lowest life" (assuming the parting shot can't hit all enemies in the battle, chooses targeting priority based on most powerful, most expensive to produce, and most likely to be killed, respectively)

Size of blast (range from fallen Sovereign to damage enemies; this is an alternative to the "Number of targets" above)

Elemental nature (determines the type of damage)

Piercing (damage ignores armour/resistance)

Spell (casts a spell on triggering the return; could be added multiple times for different spells; could be offensive spells or spells that affect the enemy army outside of battle; essence cost based on the selected spell and power)

Spell power (assuming spells have scalable powers)

Target (could use the same options as for "Number of targets" above with addition of "Self" for the point of the Sovereign's defeat)

Mana boost (provides a selectable amount of mana upon triggering the return spell; essence cost a flat amount pegged to the amount of mana selected)

Chaos rift (cracks reality during the teleportation, creating a random group of monsters, random damage or healing, random environment changes, etc. at both the from and to locations; reduces essence cost of the return spell by a percentage due to less effort required for the sloppy teleportation)

Directed rift (the chaos rift only affects the from location; changes the essence cost to a positive amount and doubles it)

Astral assistance (summons random creature to your service; essence cost dependent on sub-options)

Power (determines general power level of creature that can be summoned)

Duration (how many turns the summoned creature will remain)

I'm pretty sure I've forgotten things here and there, but that's the general idea. Giving players the option to set up the way defeats are handled wouldn't be exceptionally difficult or even significantly alter the game, but I imagine it would go a long way towards pleasing a larger audience. Allowing options in the effect of the return spell adds another layer of tactics that could become vital towards the end of the game. I can imagine a seemingly-weak Sovereign being defeated only to march out from a nearby town, mostly healed and with several of his strongest units, to hunt down an enemy army badly damaged by the battle and a crushing parting shot. Anyway, that's my two cents'... *glances back up* er, five cents' worth.

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Why not simply let all Sov' start with a "back to capital" teleportation spell. Relatively cheap to use (could be based on level) and restricted to be used only when a certain percent of hit points is lost. In this way players will have to make a choice. Do I want to gamble everything and possible die and loose the game or do I want to retreat. Only the Sov should be able to do this or it would diminish the tactical aspects on the world map (outmaneuvering an enemy champion/army).

Problems:

Players might consider sending the Sov into battles he cannot win, deal out destruction and then disappear --- rest --- repeat. (Perhaps you should only be able to use this spell 1 time per X turns, where X is higher than regeneration time - making it feel very game mechaninc/balancing "alike" and thus only suitable for multiplayer). Single player could just use autosave/load as have been proposed.

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@Wintersong

I understand generally what your saying but the difference is that when an individual is critically wounded in battle they shouldn't be able to manage their kingdom, or fight, or cast spells, or do just about anything besides lie there and recover. Also there is a difference between being badly injured and being on the brink of death. Just because a sovereign is on the brink of death (which in this case could be considered 0 hp) doesn't mean he'll/she'll die because a Sovereign as we know is no ordinary fellow. However even a sovereign would need some serious bed rest if his/her body was half-crushed by a rampaging troll. I don't think it would be to big of a lore jump to assume that a Sovereign could recover from injuries that would prove fatal for a normal man/woman, because quite frankly the Sovereign isn't a normal man/woman. However it also wouldn't be a big lore jump to assume that their ability to regenerate from an otherwise fatal wound would be related to their connection with the elemental shards and therefore cost essence to achieve.

Granted I'm personally biased because it's my own Idea but I still think its better then the pansy system of allowing the sovereign to just jump back to a city whenever hes defeated with 1 HP. If I go the superman ultra bad-ass Sovereign route where my sovereign has tons of magic power and can devastate armies I could wipe out half your forces, get defeated, and be back before dinner with the second half of your forces vanquished. And oh yeah, that's all with just one guy and no penalties... It's ridiculous. I also think its better then a black and white system of, If your sovereign dies you lose. It's not impossible for one bad roll to be the end all be all with a system like that and although that's not a problem in SP in MP individuals who want to employ their sovereigns rather then just sitting on their buttocks will be rare because they know a single slip of the die and its game over. My system promotes a perfect balance of punishment for being careless that increases the more powerful your sovereign becomes. I won't say it's flawless but I don't think there are any better ideas.

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