Thank you. Do you think it would be possible here to list some suggestions, even as vague concepts, which could be considered worthy of fleshing out? I'll try to start and would welcome people to add some of their own ideas:

- [Breakthrough]: Advanced Archery (lets you build "crossbows") [Path: Warfare] --> can be seen as available, but cannot be purchased until the breakthrough "Winches" [Path: Civilization] has been purchased

- [Breakthrough]: Arcane Forge I (lets you make +1 magic weapons) [Path: Warfare] --> requires [Breakthrough]: Arcane Construction I [Path: Magic] (and requires certain quantities of Ore, of course)

- [Breakthrough]: Arcane Forge II (lets you make +1 magic armor piercing weapons) [Path: Warfare] --> requires [Breakthrough]: Arcane Construction II [Path: Magic] AND [Breakthrough]: Reinforced Steel [Path: Civilization] (and requires certain quantities of Ore, of course)

- [Breakthrough]: Trebuchets [Path: Warfare] --> requires [Breakthrough]: Physics [Path: Civilization]

- [Breakthrough]: Spell / Potion of Compulsion (lets you try to "charm" other human entities) [Path: Magic] --> requires [Breakthrough]: Subtle Talking [Path: Diplomacy]

- [Breakthrough]: Spell / Potion of Total Compulsion (lets you "charm" any entity) [Path: Magic] --> requires [Breakthrough]: Subtle Talking II [Path: Diplomacy] AND [Breakthrough]: Animal Speech [Path: Adventuring]

Any of these you like? Should it be more complicated? Can you add some please? Thank you.

Good ideas.  One thing I am not looiking forward to in the next beta though is this idea of choosing your next breakthrough (your scholars have made a major breakthough - choose the technology you wish to gain).  It may work quite well but in roleplaying terms it's an absolute bomb.  But that's what betas are for after all.

Thank you for these replies so far. I am not sure I understood Fenhiro entirely, but that may be due to my suboptimal English skills -- sorry, sir (and to all those patient enough to glean something useful from my words).

I thought I would elaborate on the idea a little more and give some more examples, if I may.

First, I am unclear if the gameplay is currently headed in this direction or not, but I think it would be good if research and technology were quantified as a hybrid between Level and Breakthrough: By this I mean that spending research points in (some of? all of?) the (currently: 5) research pathways should give a person a quantifiable "level" in that field, regardless of the breakthroughs that person has purchased; this "level" in that research pathway would bestow an applicable bonus to that player in the applicable field, in addition to the boni that player obtains via the breakthroughs purchased in that path. (I would like to give some examples below.) In other words, one could consider the "research power" a player has in any field as a composite of Research Points spent in one of the (currently: 5) research paths and the breakthroughs that person obtained in these fields analogously to the D&D3E concept Level / Class + Feats.

Examples of what I mean above could be formulated like this: Researching in the "Diplomacy" tree for 30 turns means that you have invested, say, 1.000 research points in Diplomacy; because of this, in those 30 turns, you were able to purchase 4 breakthroughs in Diplomacy. Your Breakthroughs included "Subtle Talking", "Advanced Subtelty", "Animal Speech" and "Religious Sensibility". The boni gained by last two breakthroughs manifest themselves primarily in new gameplay options now open to you: you can now communicate with beasts and you can join or found a religion (and build buildings of those religions if you have the correct Civilization breakthroughs and train the right religious units if you have the right Warfare breakthroughs). The first two of these 4 breakthroughs also have some gameplay options tied in to them, though perhaps not quite as explicit, perhaps this: you can now use "charm" spells or potions (if you have the right Magic breakthroughs), or perhaps you can train "spy"-like units (perhaps if you have the correct Adventuring breakthrough), but these breakthroughs in Subtelty also give your nation an inherent bonus in "diplomatic strength". However, the 1.000 research points that you have invested in Diplomacy also mean that, no matter what breakthroughs you may have chosen, that your nation has a "Level 6" (or however you want to quantify it) diplomacy rating.

Secondly, I'd like to continue my original post with some more examples of cross-path research synergy / cross-path technology interdependency.

- [Breakthrough]: Stealth (lets you build units with a sneak ability) [Path: Warfare] --> requires [Breakthrough]: Hiding [Path: Adventuring]

- [Breakthrough]: Advanced Stealth (lets you build units with a sneak ability and unlocks urban stealth, giving units in cities the chance to perform "spy"-like actions, like sabotage) [Path: Warfare] --> requires [Breakthrough]: Advanced Hiding [Path: Adventuring] AND [Breakthrough]: Trickery [Path: Adventuring]

- [Breakthrough]: Assasination (lets you build spy-cum-assasin units) [Path: Warfare] --> requires [Breakthrough]: Advanced Hiding [Path: Adventuring] AND [Breakthrough]: Advanced Trickery [Path: Adventuring]

- [Breakthrough]: Advanced Spying (lets you build units which can negate enemy commander commands and sabotage buildings) [Path: Diplomacy] --> requires [Breakthrough]: Advanced Trickery [Path: Adventuring]

- [Breakthrough]: Valaryian Steel Forges [Path: Civilization] --> requires [Breakthrough]: Imbuement [Path: Magic]

- [Breakthrough]: Heraldic Banners (lets you construct buildings with increased Prestige boni) [Path: Civilization] --> requires [Breakthrough]: Glamourous Representation [Path: Diplomacy] and Level 5 Diplomacy

- [Breakthrough]: Heraldic Oath (lets you train units with increased morale boni and a "banner"-like moral bonus to nearby units) [Path: Warfare] --> requires [Breakthrough]: Internal Motivation [Path: Diplomacy]

- [Breakthrough]: Religious Sensitivity (lets you join or found a religion) [Path: Diplomacy] 

• with [Breakthrough]: Architecture (allows you to spend 50% more time and resources on building, but gain 100% bonus on prestige for those buildings, can build Mansions, can upgrade buildings) [Path: Civilization] --> synergy with Religious Sensitivy = lets you build Temples
• with [Breakthrough]: Advanced Architecture (allows you to spend 75% more time and resources on building, but gain 200% bonus on prestige for those buildings and can now build Villas and Grand Palaces, can upgrade buildings) [Path: Civilization] --> synergy with Religious Sensitivy = lets you build Cathedrals
• with [Breakthrough]: Crusader [Warfare] --> lets you build high-morale "knight"-like units
• with [Breakthrough]: Oath of God [Magic] --> lets you cast morale-boosting spell

Thank you in advance for your constructive feedback!

I completely agree with you, Lambdaperson. That is a very good point. I hope to clarify, or perhaps modify, what I had originally wrote, in the following way, and also add one additional point.

Additional point 1: I had imagined that what I had suggested would actually encourage just that: more choices, less no-brainers. I had imagined that by having a certain number of techs be interdependent on a certain number of other ones, that the number of true meaningful choices would increase. Perhaps I am wrong.

Clarification or modification: First, with a dual-method quantification (overall level + breakthroughs), I had imagined that the cross-synergies would be "in addition to", and not "must be done this way". But I think perhaps the best way to handle the difficulties that might arise from your point would be in the last example of my previous post: Breakthroughs require research in a path, and when you achieve enough points to earn a breakthrough, you get one, and the one that you get gives you benefits; these breakthroughs, or at least most of them, might not require a prerequisite from another path, but yield additional benefits when the synergetic breakthrough is then earned: so earning the breakthrough "Religion" in Diplomacy will, in addition to the benefits that this breakthrough brings in and of itself, allow you to build religious-type warrior units ("crusaders") and build religious buildings ("temples") etc. Similarly, one could interpret the first example in my first post in the following manner: Researching Archery and Advanced archery lets you build nice archer units (warfare); earning the "winches" breakthrough in Civilization lets you build buildings 50% faster and allows you to construct bridges; if you have both, you can build "crossbows" -- you don't then need one or the other for a progession down a tree, they are rather composite substrates on a branch.

To your question Onomastikon about i meant:

First you start out researching weapons in your warfare branch which then allows you to research ranged weapons. you decide to research the said tech and when it is finished being researched you get the ability to throw rocks (low tech as it gets). this naturally would open up three unique branches like Throwing Weapons, Slings, and Archery. Since all a sling really amounts to is a piece of leather used to hurl stones over great distances, this tech branch more or less ends there. Now Throwing Weapons and Archery are a different story. Throwing Weapons opens itself up into three new branches: throwing knives and stars, throwing axes, and throwing spears. at first you would get crude version and as you progress you gain more advanced models like from a crude throwing spears to javelins, darts and pilums (or pila for those Ancient Roman buffs out there).

Here's better a version from my previous post:

                                                      |-->Throwing Knives and Stars

                       |->Throwing weapons |-->Throwing Axes

                       |                             |--> Throwing Spears --> javelin --> Pilum

Range weapons |--> Slings

                       |                 |--> Bows |--> composite bows --> compound bows --> longbows

                      |--> Archery |              |--> arrow heads

                                        |--> belly bow --> light crossbow --> heavy Cross bow

Fortunately this is only a rough stetch example so it's pretty basic and i intentionally left some items out of laziness and writers block. hope this helps clarify what i meant

yea, I would rather be able to, say, Research nearly everything in military without crossing over ... except for complex machinery like Crossbows, Warships, or Seige Engines. (or guns). Such things would be unlocked with the "Machinery" tech in Civilization (or a wench tech, a Dry-dock tech, and an advanced machinery tech respectively ... all unlocked by a basic machinery tech which allows for belly bows (the precursor to crossbows) and small military ships.

Well, For those people that want complete synergistic paths, I beseech that such extra techs SPEED the process of unit creation, rather than be a requirement. For instance, a military player could tech to warships without ever using Drydocks, only with drydocks you build ships 40% faster. As for most other military units ... the key Civilization techs "Conscription" and "Mass Conscription" will allow for the production of large units become much more expedient. (10 of a soldier X will take 30% faster, while 50 of soldier X will be 50% faster, while 100 of soldier X would be 110% faster???) we will see.

I can't think of any other "necessary" cross-overs. Except for the Wheel -> Chariots. Well, okay ... You will need Animal Husbandry in order to start researching "Horsebackriding" in the military sector.

 here's some cross-path stuff for ya. we'll use the spear as a example.

Research Spears + Research Copper Smelting = Copper Spears

technically, you've already researched spears as a basic weapon template so what's the point researching "more advanced spears". In order to get a better spear you would need to gain access to better materials like from bone spearheads to copper spearhead. To do this you research smelting copper as a gateway to both better weapons (eventually) and other things like a royale mint (coin making shop).

Flaw with Cross-Pathing: too much makes it too complicated (in layman's). This is what can make cross-pathing problematic. some cases it can offer a fun challenge. lets use boats as our next example:

                            Research Rafts --> Canoes --> Sail boat --> Bireme

Research Woodcutting -->|                                     |                 |

                                                Research Rope -->|                 |

                                              Research Clothe -->|                 |

                                                         Research Mapmaking -->|

Sure a little here and there is okay, but if you have to research twenty seperate items (exlcuding generational linear paths) that's when it gets annoying.

+1 Cross-techs. No more Linear & Boring Co.

+1 Deeper-you-get-the-happier-she-is. What I mean is that there shouldn't be any kind of diminishing returns present. The deeper you go in a particular tree, the better techs you should be able to achieve. If anyone of you need some dimini. then let's make 1/2/3 infinite techs in every tree (with dimini.), so that you can spend your development point elsewhere, when you eventually reach end-game.

-1 My laziness & head-ache. Will elaborate more on this matter as soon as I have some free time.

I've been fretting in many different ways about the mundane research, but the more I think about my worries, the more I wonder how many of them will seem irrelevant once the magic system is in the game. Long, long ago there was talk that mundane research would be less important to the full game than magical research. I want a strong variety of strategic choices also, but I believe I'll be happier if the majority of them involve the magic system and not the differences between a Mongol composite horsebow and an English longbow.

This isnt exactly an example for multi-branch research, the main point of this thread, but here is an additional suggestion for other ways to "mix" research with other world entities / events:

Unlock Action: "Shield Wall". Any squad (a squad is a group of units with similar abilities on the tactical battle screen) can choose the "Shield Wall" action if

- the units posses a shield item

- the untis have been trained with the technology "Advanced Shields", in the Warfare path, single-branch (without any additonal techs)

Activating the Shield Wall action icon will give the units shield defense modifier + 150%, and the missile deflection modifier +250%; the units may take no other action and cannot attack for the turn in which this action is taken

I'm still hoping that the magic parts are far less finished than the mundane research stuff. But all the public dev attention on unit customizing & info cards isn't leaving me very encouraged that magic will be more important than steel and muscle. It'll be a shame if the subtitle needs correcting to "War with a Little Magic on the Side."

I think that the annoying effects of incremental technologies (i.e. Laser I, Laser II, etc.) would be largely negated if the technological upgrades automatically transferred to all units. So, if I upgrade my weapons forge, the weapons of all my existing units are automatically upgraded.

This can be done at no cost, at a specified percentage, a fixed cost per unit, a fixed cost per unit based on unit type, or even a general fixed cost.

It would really reduce the tedium, especially mid to late game where you have many units floating around.