Easy levels and War-Crazy AI. » Forum Post by Tattyhat

Oh, so this is an AI is too good complaint, I didn't expect that, but it is refreshing. Maybe Brad will take a look at the Easy setting AI and make some tweaks. A good difficulty option should allow for all types of players.

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DsRaider

Join Date 11/2008

+70

I think your being unreasonable. I have no trouble grabbing 1-2 expansions on even the most crowded map. If you don't want to deal with the AI then play on very uncrowded maps. Also if you don't interact with the AI of course they won't like you. Build a few troops so your military rating isn't low, frequently the AI is offering me gold because I'm tougher then them. Also offer stronger AIs gold and research, and make treaties and then only the most warlike factions like Yithril and Tarth will war with you.

Again there is no point in having AIs if you are just going to ignore them. You have to actually deal with them diplomatically. Although I think we don't have enough options here it is still possible.

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I tend to agree with Xia here.

But when I play on Easy the AI always seems to make bad decisions when its absolutely crucial to make the right one. For example they tend to declare war on you yes, but they normally don't know how to handle your superior troops. For them a Strong force vs their Deadly one will lose. For you that's just not the case.

You can easily (hence the difficulty) outplay them. You don't need a high power rating to do so. I've won games where i had a power rating of 100 and my enemies had 400 both. no other races were in the game and i was of the opposing faction, but they both warred each other instead of my puny 2 settlements empire.

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You could try and reduce the amount of other AI empires. E.g. trying a large map with only 4 or 5 opponents. There should be enough time to build up your own empire until opponents borders reach yours.

My impression: AI is very likely to declare war on you, if they have a higher power rating. If AI has a minor rating, it is very unlikely that it declares war on you.

I don´t think, that diplomacy is the strongest part of the game. I would be happy, if the devolpers would tune AI diplomacy.

You mentioned the fast expansion of AI empires. I´m sharing your opinion. It´s sometimes very fast and aggressive and there is no different behavior between all the AI empires. Would be nice if the strategy of the individual races were different.

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I play on easy because I want a casual and easy game, nothing to difficult.

I usually play easy on a medium map with only 3 AI. I am able to expand a little and build a army of about 4 to 5 units, kill some monsters and loot some lairs.

Then I meet the AI, and I know my game is about to take a nose dive. They start asking for money and even if I have it, giving it away normally has me going into debt.

A few turns more and here comes the war decs (same old story), then is basically game over for me.

The pity is, that I love the look, music and general game play of FE and LH, but I absolutely hate the AI, it's like no other AI that I have ever come across, it seems that it's only purpose is to grief the player and ruin their game.

I just wish that easy, was in fact, easy.

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A lot of this is luck of the draw. The map layout and starting positions to be more precise. I play mostly expert or ridiculous AI and sometimes they will expand quickly but other times slowly. Some tips:

1. Use ctrl+n if you get a terrible starting location. Get yourself at minimum a 3/3/2 starting location.

2. Design a basic 3 traited spear unit. Constitution, Ironskin, and your choice of offensive trait. Fill up your first army with these.

3. Use Enchanted Hammers and Inspiration for your two essence slots. If you have a 3rd essence slot Use Propaganda. This would require all of Earth, Water and Air magic but it is a huge early boost to everything important.

4. Research the first 3 Civilization techs first. Start with Restoration for a early workshop to help your production along. Next get Knowledge for a quick study for a research boost. Finally get Civics for the Bell Tower unrest reduction.

5. Mining and Trading are most often my next two techs. Mining for the production boost and Trading for roads and the Market. After these you should be looking towards the techs needed for your next military design, usually leather and a weapon from the weaponry tech. Sometimes a ring of life added if you have some early crystal. I always Fortress first because I like these second tier unit designs to be boosted by the Fortress, Barracks, and Forge. If you use the Fortress start don't forget to change the spells to unit boosting spells before you make your second tier units! You can leave the Enchanted Hammers but at least get one unit boosting spell on the Fortress.

Make a Scout and a Pioneer first, you could even design a scout with the stealth trait if you wish. Next is your workshop and possibly a merchant. At this point you need to fill your army with those awesome Spearmen you designed so work those in along with a study. Something I like to do is send my base Spearman unit out to scout and fill his spot with another 3 trait spear unit. I like to keep the militia in my army for their crushing blow ability. With 2 units full time scouting and your main army moving around, you should be able to find a nice spot for your next settlement. Once your army is full you should finish clearing any threats to your first settlements borders as it grows. Do the same for your second settlement spot you have hopefully found. Hope this helps!

+1

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@Grogtank

I will give it a another go playing along the lines you describe. I am getting pretty tired of stating new games after the last being killed by the AI, but I think I may have a few more try's left in me before I give up.

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I should add that when using ctrl+n, pay attention to where on the map you are. If you have water on two sides and are close to the edge of the map, you might be on a long snaking peninsula with little chance of finding a good nearby second settlement location. ctrl+n again!

Keep at it. You will find the right balance eventually and this will help you enjoy the game more.

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lol easy is too hard? Is this a troll post?

I thought this was going to be about adding multiplayer! 4v4 team game.... Awesome!

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Gaunathor

Join Date 04/2006

+170

Quoting Tattyhat,

reply 7

I am getting pretty tired of stating new games after the last being killed by the AI, but I think I may have a few more try's left in me before I give up.

If easy is too hard for you, why don't you try one of the lower difficulties? There are two more below easy. At least there are in FE, but I don't think they'd change that in LH.

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Its not so much it being hard as it being the AI pestering, nagging and griefing me. It just interferes to much.

Who's game is it, mine or the AI's?

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If you want to be able to expand without interference from the AI until the late game, play a 1v1 game on a medium (or larger) map. That should give you plenty of opportunity to build up and explore without ever even meeting the AI.

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huge map + 1 opponent = gaming in peace?

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Quoting Lord Xia,

reply 1

Oh, so this is an AI is too good complaint, I didn't expect that, but it is refreshing. Maybe Brad will take a look at the Easy setting AI and make some tweaks. A good difficulty option should allow for all types of players.

Yeah it's funny. The AI declares war on Tatty playing easy, but I can't get them to declare war on me on Hard. Tatty you need to do more diplomacy like trade, economic, and technology treaties with the AI... they love that stuff. You also need to get the lead which is easy to do by leveling your heroes and cities then everyone will bow to you.

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Quoting Tattyhat,

reply 11

Its not so much it being hard as it being the AI pestering, nagging and griefing me. It just interferes to much.

Who's game is it, mine or the AI's?

So, why don't you just play a game with 1 AI on a large map?

You seem to enjoy questing and city building. One AI on a large map would give you plenty of time to fight monsters, quest and level up before you deal with the AI. Another good way to put a chokehold on their expansion is to set the world difficulty higher than the AI difficulty. The AI has problems dealing with monster dense environments, which is good for you as long as you like challenging monster encounters.

Overall, I must ask, how do you expect the AI to behave? How do you want it to behave?

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parrottmath

Join Date 03/2008

+206

Another possible solution is to play a non-random map. You can go to the map editor and literally generate a random map, then put the AI on islands in the corners and play the game without them pestering you at all for the entire game. Just turn of the spell of making so they don't go casting that one. There is also a miriad of ways to mod the game where the AI just can't do anything.

The question really what kind of experience are you looking for in your gameplay. I find setting the map on huge with 2-3 AI tends to keep them out of my hair for quite sometime, but sometimes they are right next to me. The only way to solve that problem is literally generate the map and set the starting locations (mind you the item placement is still random, the terrain is only fixed).

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Quoting Trojasmic,

reply 14

Yeah it's funny. The AI declares war on Tatty playing easy, but I can't get them to declare war on me on Hard. Tatty you need to do more diplomacy like trade, economic, and technology treaties with the AI... they love that stuff. You also need to get the lead which is easy to do by leveling your heroes and cities then everyone will bow to you.

I remember back in FE that easy difficulties were a massive pain during beta for a while, looks like I'll make a game on easy and see how they do in LH. Right now, on challenging/challenging with dense monsters, the only times the AI would talk to me was to offer tribute. Of course, it also seems the AI has difficulty with lots of monsters (I also have above average wildlands, because I prefer playing an RPG that lets me build an empire in the background), so toning everything down to see what happens will be interesting, especially to see if AI is more militant on lower settings than on higher ones.

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Quoting Grogtank,

reply 6

A lot of this is luck of the draw. The map layout and starting positions to be more precise. I play mostly expert or ridiculous AI and sometimes they will expand quickly but other times slowly. Some tips:

1. Use ctrl+n if you get a terrible starting location. Get yourself at minimum a 3/3/2 starting location.

2. Design a basic 3 traited spear unit. Constitution, Ironskin, and your choice of offensive trait. Fill up your first army with these.

3. Use Enchanted Hammers and Inspiration for your two essence slots. If you have a 3rd essence slot Use Propaganda. This would require all of Earth, Water and Air magic but it is a huge early boost to everything important.

4. Research the first 3 Civilization techs first. Start with Restoration for a early workshop to help your production along. Next get Knowledge for a quick study for a research boost. Finally get Civics for the Bell Tower unrest reduction.

5. Mining and Trading are most often my next two techs. Mining for the production boost and Trading for roads and the Market. After these you should be looking towards the techs needed for your next military design, usually leather and a weapon from the weaponry tech. Sometimes a ring of life added if you have some early crystal. I always Fortress first because I like these second tier unit designs to be boosted by the Fortress, Barracks, and Forge. If you use the Fortress start don't forget to change the spells to unit boosting spells before you make your second tier units! You can leave the Enchanted Hammers but at least get one unit boosting spell on the Fortress.

Make a Scout and a Pioneer first, you could even design a scout with the stealth trait if you wish. Next is your workshop and possibly a merchant. At this point you need to fill your army with those awesome Spearmen you designed so work those in along with a study. Something I like to do is send my base Spearman unit out to scout and fill his spot with another 3 trait spear unit. I like to keep the militia in my army for their crushing blow ability. With 2 units full time scouting and your main army moving around, you should be able to find a nice spot for your next settlement. Once your army is full you should finish clearing any threats to your first settlements borders as it grows. Do the same for your second settlement spot you have hopefully found. Hope this helps!

These are very good tips i personally will be trying out.

But i have couple questions.

1. Do you mean i/we should make the first set of spearmen before doing any city upgrades?

2. Wouldn't making a pioneer first to set up a second city asap be better in the long run if/when possible without disturbing any monsters?

How bad is the unrest penalty on productivity/study/growth anyway? Haven't found any specific numbers from game UI and i only see the unrrest number when on building menu.

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These are very good tips i personally will be trying out.

But i have couple questions.

1. Do you mean i/we should make the first set of spearmen before doing any city upgrades?

2. Wouldn't making a pioneer first to set up a second city asap be better in the long run if/when possible without disturbing any monsters?

How bad is the unrest penalty on productivity/study/growth anyway? Haven't found any specific numbers from game UI and i only see the unrrest number when on building menu.

Scout and pioneer first, then workshop is what I mostly do. You need the workshop up for the triple traited spearmen. This all assumes the starting city is at least a 3 on production + Enchanted Hammers. Anything less and the spearmen can take too long to build.

I'm not sure about the unrest penalty. I suppose you might be able to skip Civics and head straight to Mining but you will want Civics anyway for Trading (roads and market). You would have to work the study in before the spearmen because of the research time on second tier techs at that point. I think the earlier full army is more important.

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Interesting post. Like Xia I expected the opposite complaint from the title.

At higher difficulty levels the AI will only declare war on you if they have more power (or at least comparable). A large part of power comes from army size and settlements. Assuming Easy difficulty works the same way then recruiting enough troops and settling enough to keep your power at or above the level of the AI should make it much less likely they will declare war on you. The other thing you can do is create Trade Treaties with the AI, that helps improve relations. You may need to pay some gold to do so but it is probably worth it.

Actually if you do have more power than the AI they will probably pay YOU gold for a non aggression pact which is a big win-win for you when you want a peaceful game anyway!

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I like Grogtank's Research Order, with one alteration: Horses are an absolute must! 4th tech I get (well, 5th, technically, because of Training) is Horse Riding. Then I go to town on the Civilization tree, sometimes picking up Archery mid-game and sometimes not bothering.

I was initially playing a lot on Easy, but now I've progressed to Challenging, and I can still easily ROFLStomp the AI fairly early on if I feel like it (in my current game on a Medium map with 3 AIs, Magnar pissed me off by ninja'ing monster loot on me, so I ground them to dust as penance = P). It's harder on random maps, yes, but if you solely play pre-generated maps (Bay of Capacea and Anthys are very good choices for map control), it's fairly easy to memorize the layout and know where to cut the AI off so it can't expand.

To clarify that point: Find narrow choke points (preferably 1-3 squares wide, wider if you must) and plug them with stacks of spearmen or other cheap units. The AI can't get through them (even with a NAP!) and thus you can severely control where they go.

It's also very, very helpful to make a custom faction with Mancer race, Master Scouts, Arcane Monoliths, and whatever else you desire (Archers is an excellent choice, as ranged units own early game, and with Archers, they also own late game). Start yourself off with a Conclave on a good 2+ essence spot and forge a little bit into the Magic tree to maximize your mana/turn, so you don't have to waste Pioneers on Outposts. Makes a WORLD of difference early game. Mancer + Master Scouts + Horses means 5 moves per turn, no terrain penalties, excepting recruited heroes from other races.

You can also possibly improve your chances by making the Research pacing Normal or Epic (assuming you don't already have it there) and your Build rate Very Fast. This pretty much lets your construction keep up with your research, reducing that feeling of being pressured into, "do I build improvements or do I train troops?!"

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the only issue with using the map editor is you know what the continent looks like ahead of time. it might be nice if you could set the number of AI players to zero if you just wanted to play around and explore with with quests and wildlands without being bothered. I like to fight big wars myself, but it might be an interesting change of pace.

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I would agree with stein here. Being able to null the amount of AI, just to play a nice little rpg from time to time would be really cool. Of course the only victory conditions would be Quest and SoM.

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Quoting Ashnal,

reply 15

Overall, I must ask, how do you expect the AI to behave? How do you want it to behave?

I would like the AI to take war seriously, only declaring war as a last resort.

As it stands the AI acts like a school yard bully, declaring war on me simply because I won't give up my pocket money.

I would also like the AI to only talk to me when it has something useful to say, and not spam the hell out of me with it's jabbering and threats.

I would like the AI to at least appear intelligent, by doing things for a reason and not stumble about banging it's head on the walls.

I am going to go crazy here and play a large map with only 1, maybe 2 AI, and set world difficulty to something higher than the AI.

I have penciled out a plan for growth along the lines of the suggestions put forward in this post. Maybe I will fair better this time. At the very least I should get to experience more of the game before I get flattened.

Thank you for all the input, it has given me the will to carry on.

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World difficulty is the strength of the neutral mobs (creeps, if you like) and also controls the strength/quantity of random event spawns. With that set to Challenging, I often find that I run into one of three scenarios: the creeps crush me early game, the creeps are farmable early game which makes the AI easy to kill later, or I get a good start and then the Infestation random event triggers and the map gets flooded with spider hordes too beefy for me to survive against.

I'm thinking about putting the AI on Insane soon = P

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