Glazunov1

Join Date 08/2010

+26

City level-ups

Choices without meaning?

I'll start this thread with a quote from Tuidjy, who in turn quotes me in the recent Slums thread:

Quoting Glazunov1,

reply 15

Yep. That's the problem: there really aren't any choices.

Unfortunately, true for towns and mostly true for fortresses

All town choices are no-brainers

[3] Guild Grocer: 10% to everyone's hit points.

[4] Governor Mansion: +1 production per material everywhere

[5] Guild tribunal: +2 production per material everywhere

For fortresses

[3] Strike garison is a no-brainer for your main fortress

[4] There are no really useful choices, but mining guild is free iron.

[5] Here all choices are good, depending on your situation, although for troop production, Great Arena is best, which make me always choose it in the main fortress (all other fortresses are conquests, and seldom reach high levels)

For conclaves, almost all choices are hard ones, even if I usually end up making the same ones.

And that's why we complain about automatic choices. Because it's been quite a while ago, I quickly came to the same conclusions about which are the best choices for leveling up a city. One usually stands out per level. If there's a second, it's simply one that helps growth--and like the champion traits that increase experience, they're strategically useful with zero game flavor--they add nothing personal to the character (or city), while helping you get another trait faster. They're speedway traits, with a dull view on all sides.

Over to you. I'll probably post a bit more on city automation, later.

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definitely agreed, city upgrades need an overhaul.

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Quoting crimsongekko,

reply 1

definitely agreed, city upgrades need an overhaul.

What upgrades specifically do you think would help?

I'd like to see an accross-the-board upgrade that, like the ones Fortresses have, installs a fort with better and more local militia. Perhaps as well an upgrade option for Conclaves that adds a portal similar to the Cloud Walk spell--but you can only use it to travel to another portal in another of your cities. So it would be at once available without having to get the high level spell, but very limited in application.

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I actually use different builds depending on the city's role, so I'll toss this out there for consideration:

Capital (town):

3) Grocer (10% HP)

4) Almshouse (+1 Prestige)

5) Mint of Ruvenna (+3g per mat)

This is because all the trades comes into this city, so I always specialize it as a gold producer (often has the treasury vault). Arcane Forge and Propaganda enchantment if possible...

Troop Producer (fortress, duh):

3) Strike Garrison (Impusive)

4) Prison (10% empire wide unrest reduction, -1 growth)

5) Great Arena (+2 Atk and +3 HP for trained units)

More often than not, the Great Arena isn't even needed, you basically toss on all the fortress upgrade you have and the best troop enchantments (make sure to build on a 2+ essence tile, with decent mat) and pump troops...

Unrest Fortress (...):

3) Infirmary (+1 Growth, and heals units)

4) Prison (10% empire wide unrest reduction, -1 growth)

5) Onyx Throne (30% empire wide unrest reduction)

This fortress is mainly built to reduce unrest empire wide, usually on a high grain tile (little or no essence is fine), the main purpose is to rush to lv5, so the Infirmary is there to help with growth. It generally also get a bunch of outposts and consulates if I can't spare governors. Having this allows me to set tax at much higher values, producing gold to buy everything.

Research cities (conclave):

3) Oracle (+1 Essence)

4) Pyre of Anniellum(+3 mana, +1 fire)

5) Hedigah Bathhouse (-30% Unrest, +1 water)

Oracle is the only one important on this build, the extra essence allows you to get more research from alchemist and Revelation. The other two is really only there to power up spells. I might have a couple of these in a large map game, mainly to keep research at a decent pace as well as power up those fire spells and slow.

All other towns:

3) Grocer (10% HP)

4) Almshouse (+1 Prestige)

5) Guild Tribunal (+2 production per mat for all cities)

Basically my build for everything else. I still prefer Almshouse for lv4 because it keeps a large kingdom growing without needing to baby sit it with governors/consultates. Besides, I often just buy everything I need with gold, so the production doesn't really matter all that much. Having a bunch of towns along with an unrest fortress makes that possible.

No Scroll Scribe, and no Governor's Office in sight... so I don't see those as being defacto at all.

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I always grab one scroll scribe, since i really like using henchmen, and i will grab the crystal upgrade when i am running low on the resource.

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MisterAedan

Join Date 11/2007

I've never used the scroll scribe, what does it unlock that makes it essential (for some players at least)?

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Polistes

Join Date 02/2008

+19

I personally like the watch tower for the fortresses, free catapult for the win! (Even if they are not researched yet.)

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Some of my impressions:

- Few cities vs Many cities. I think here lies the main discussion. I think developers wanted this game to focus in few but powerfull cities. That is the reason to link prestige to growth, isn't it? But many strategics rely on having many cities although undeveloped, because this allows 1) expand dominion and control resources 2) expand economy (each city = +1 gildar +1 research at the begining) 3) avoid AI expansion

With this in mind, looking at some of the benefits in upgrade, seems to be so "discordant". And that takes me to the next point:

- Upgrades that affect all cities/units vs upgrades that affect the single city. So related with the first point. It is normal that most players decide the first one, as we tend to have many cities, so the benefits stack. Example: +10% HP, +1 materials, ...

Possible solutions: 1) nerf them OR limit a Max. number of cities with it 2) Locate them in the highest levels. 3) Locate them together, so you have to decide to choose ONLY one between those that affect all cities/units.

Special case: +10% HP. 10 towns at level 3 (relatively easy to get) = +100% HP for all units. I would really nerf this to 5%. Or maybe put it at level 4. Or both? Or a 5% in level 3 and also other 5% at level 4. You want HP? Then, you will get nothing else.

- Cities and AI. AI seems to make many conclaves (wich is not bad) and fortresses (wich is not good). I may be wrong, but that is my impression. We all know that having one (maybe two) well developed fortress is far better than many undeveloped. Towns are needed to provide the growth (and the +10% HP...). Many AI towns I get, lack the basic buildings, and they have shrines and other things that ok, but secondary. I think this point needs work too.

- Cities and players. As seen in posts above, even now the game allows to play different ways with the upgrades. I think the most important is that changes should take that in mind. If a certain way of upgrading is far better than others, then the game is "forcing" somehow to play that way, and that is not good.

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Quoting Glazunov1,

reply 2

Quoting crimsongekko, reply 1definitely agreed, city upgrades need an overhaul.

What upgrades specifically do you think would help?

my opionions are here: https://forums.elementalgame.com/437221

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Quoting SOLOSOL,

reply 8

Or a 5% in level 3 and also other 5% at level 4. You want HP? Then, you will get nothing else

I thought this in the last moment, and I think I could develop it a bit more. This is how could be:

Upgrading Towns

- (3) +%5 HP /all units (4) +%5 HP /all units (5) +%5 HP /all units. Maybe something else, like some more faction food

- (3) + 3 production in all cities (4) + 5 production in all cities (5) + 1 material in all cities. Maybe something else too.

- One of the rest of the options. Maybe they should be based in improving food. I think that this third option could be randomized.

Upgrading Conclaves. Not sure about the numbers, just orientative.

- (3) + 5 research (4) +10 research (5) + 20 research. Note: this could be plain or % when idle, as you wish.

- (3) +2 mana (4) +5 mana (5) +10 mana

- One of the rest of the options. I think that this third option could be randomized.

I should add the buildings, but I can't remember them now, just link each building to a level.

The idea is that each city could really focus in a certain way, or try a mix of them, if along the game, circumstances change.

Upgrading Fortress. Not sure. I think the idea would be to have to decide between, maybe, stronger units, traits (like the charge or the bloodthirsty), or production time.

A third randomized option could be fine too.

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Quoting Kalin,

reply 3

I actually use different builds depending on the city's role, so I'll toss this out there for consideration:

Capital (town):

3) Grocer (10% HP)

4) Almshouse (+1 Prestige)

5) Mint of Ruvenna (+3g per mat)

This is because all the trades comes into this city, so I always specialize it as a gold producer (often has the treasury vault). Arcane Forge and Propaganda enchantment if possible...

Troop Producer (fortress, duh):

3) Strike Garrison (Impusive)

4) Prison (10% empire wide unrest reduction, -1 growth)

5) Great Arena (+2 Atk and +3 HP for trained units)

More often than not, the Great Arena isn't even needed, you basically toss on all the fortress upgrade you have and the best troop enchantments (make sure to build on a 2+ essence tile, with decent mat) and pump troops...

Unrest Fortress (...):

3) Infirmary (+1 Growth, and heals units)

4) Prison (10% empire wide unrest reduction, -1 growth)

5) Onyx Throne (30% empire wide unrest reduction)

This fortress is mainly built to reduce unrest empire wide, usually on a high grain tile (little or no essence is fine), the main purpose is to rush to lv5, so the Infirmary is there to help with growth. It generally also get a bunch of outposts and consulates if I can't spare governors. Having this allows me to set tax at much higher values, producing gold to buy everything.

Research cities (conclave):

3) Oracle (+1 Essence)

4) Pyre of Anniellum(+3 mana, +1 fire)

5) Hedigah Bathhouse (-30% Unrest, +1 water)

Oracle is the only one important on this build, the extra essence allows you to get more research from alchemist and Revelation. The other two is really only there to power up spells. I might have a couple of these in a large map game, mainly to keep research at a decent pace as well as power up those fire spells and slow.

All other towns:

3) Grocer (10% HP)

4) Almshouse (+1 Prestige)

5) Guild Tribunal (+2 production per mat for all cities)

Basically my build for everything else. I still prefer Almshouse for lv4 because it keeps a large kingdom growing without needing to baby sit it with governors/consultates. Besides, I often just buy everything I need with gold, so the production doesn't really matter all that much. Having a bunch of towns along with an unrest fortress makes that possible.

No Scroll Scribe, and no Governor's Office in sight... so I don't see those as being defacto at all.

Some very good points, most of which I agree with. I do have several points of departure which are probably due to the level and way I play, and maybe the faction chosen also has an effect.

Capital and Fortresses are well chosen.

The Conclave at level 4 is usually an Academy of Revelation for me. The 10% empire wide boost to research is hard to beat, it is that combined with several level 4 towns (with high base research) that carries my research into the late game. Technology treaties with the AI can also boost empire wide research but that requires being at peace with them and helps them as well and it depends on how many of them are willing to sign up and what the cost will be.

Other towns will mostly have a Grocer at level 3 but a case can be made for using the Slums in a city with plenty of grain both in the early game and middle game. In the early game a town with Slums will grow to level 4 much more rapidly without using a Governor champion and before consulate can be researched. Plus consulates are expensive, so getting 3 of them at level 3 is a big boost in a Town I want to grow quickly and worth 3 x 540 gold / production

At level 4 my towns nearly all take Governor’s Office as the boost to production by +1 per material empire wide, that is a much better option than Almshouse which gives +1 pop divided by all my cities. I assume that I will have something like 10 cities by that stage of the game, some core, some newly founded and some captured and recovering. If each of those cities has an average of 4 material then I’m getting 40 production and even more as the empire expands and once Arcane Forge is researched. I just can’t see how getting 1/10 pop per turn can compare with gaining 4 production. In fairness I do play with the option that allows an easy surrender for a beaten sovereign and so I often capture 2 or 3 of them and the really big bonus they bring is often their Prestige which continues to grow as they are levelled up and I take them on all the big quests with a view to boosting my overall growth. An Almshouse promotion is small beer compared to that.

I am an aggressive warmonger and most of my games are over and in the mop up phase by the time I could get many cities to level 5 so I place more emphasis on choices at level 3 and 4. I have to really try hard to get a level 5 city, so I place a lot more value on the level 4 Governor’s Office than the level 5 Guild Tribunal simply because I get more of them and they are in effect for much longer.

When playing with a level 5 Death Archmage with the Sacrifice spell I view population as a source of mana and much of my emphasis on fast growth (e.g. Slums) is with this in mind as any city that has reached level 4 but can’t reach level 5 gets sacrificed and treated as another mana source and certainly any city that reaches level 5 is a huge bonus of 800 mana which is actually more useful than the level 5 promotion.

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As I mentioned near the bottom of my post, production just isn't very important to me because I pretty much buy everything I really need with gold, the excess stuff I just queue up and couldn't care less when they complete (although I've honestly never found myself in a situation where I really need those extra production). The growth is important for me because one of the highest gold generator in the game is the base town itself. Having high level cities is just the easiest way of getting tons of money. The only reason I take guild tribunals at lv5 is because at that point I tend to have plenty of gold income (due to having lv5 towns - lol), and don't really need the gold so much anymore, so I take the production to reduce the cost of buying stuff in between turns (can only rush once per turn afterall).

If you are aggressively warmongering, the city builds honestly doesn't matter all that much at all.

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I'd like to see more options than just three. Can't see why that couldn't happen.

I'd also like to see certain options only become available when the city leveling up has a certain resource(s) in it's ZoC. Given the frequent (re)expression of this idea it seems like the designers don't want it in. (Although we do have white horses, so maybe there is some hope.)

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I'd like to see a reason to build more than one fortress. No reason that tier3 upgrades can't all be similar - free impulsive, free charge, free endurance.

Depending on what sort of troops I want to build there, I'd choose any of those.

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Quoting feelotraveller,

reply 13

I'd like to see more options than just three. Can't see why that couldn't happen.

I completely agree. I'd like to see paths that envision not merely a specific direction for a generic city, but a specific direction for a city based on a specific resource--as you note just below. This would also serve to push players into factoring more content into making important settling choices: do I go with that city next to the forest, or next to the horses, or next to that shard?

Hate to tell you this, but those aren't white horses. Those are black horses that have been painted white.

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Quoting feelotraveller,

reply 13

I'd like to see more options than just three. Can't see why that couldn't happen.

I'd also like to see certain options only become available when the city leveling up has a certain resource(s) in it's ZoC. Given the frequent (re)expression of this idea it seems like the designers don't want it in. (Although we do have white horses, so maybe there is some hope.)

strongly seconded

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The loading screens are either outdated or alluding to future content. One remarks that their would be much more choice for city upgrades with uncommon and rare buildings.

I'd like that.

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