My whole army usually tends to consist of heros sovs and a few peon units. I use heros and sovs for the majority of fights and pretty much ignore normal units.

 

What difficulty are you playing on?

I can definately do that on normal where there is not a problem. However, normal is not a fun mode to play as the AI does absolutely nothing, I mean 250 turns and I find SOVs sitting on their starting town and they haven't even built a hut to increase their pop past 10 (dont know what rut they got stuck in for that!). Play on ridiculous, where you can get some kind of challenge and you have your SOV going against 250HP stacks mid game. It doesn't matter how buff your hero is, you can only output so much DPS and any standard AI stack will take you down due to the HP buff.

Also, in normal, I stick loads of armour on and all the HP upgrades and buff spells and my heroes are getting pretty buff.

Then the game comes and kicks me in the nuts with a simple fight a couple of n00bs quest and delivers me a dragon which kicks my entire's army ass. So I have spent 150 turns hand nurturing my sovereign who is the saviour of the land, only to have him quivering in the corner of the tactical map either plinking people with arrows or firing off some spells with a massive dragon next to him, which is not hard to get, able to deal out 70  damage an attack and practically non-hittable.

Where is the balance?

PS I love Dragons, but wish my SOV could be that strong as well.

he he he, what can I say? I'm from the old school, rulebooks 100pages+. I've played too many games where that +1 to hit modifier was the difference between a hit in the ass of that King Tiger Tank with a 76 APCR round or a miss, in other words, the rule was a game breaker. Underscoring that point might make the devs supply a manual that's a little more useful than useless in the next edition/verstion/game whatnot. From a strategy game background as a strategy gamer, I want to completely know every last detail down to the blow-by-blow level of how a game works so I can make the best possible decisions. I play games to win with the highest score, not to eat time pushing pieces around & waste time, that's just the way I'm built; it's a genetic trait.

This is a great case in point, with the next quoted post below ...

Never in a million years would I have guessed magic resistance was the same as physical defense ... buildings eat food, not people? What?? This is a perfect example of abstraction for the worse and makes no sense. At least they should have compared intelligence to intelligence & given combat units a generic "intelligence" level based upons some base value + current experience, that would make much more sense. So, I'm more magically resistant to a lightning bolts because I'm wearing armor?? My archers' wooden arrows are more resistant to firestorm because I'm wearing armor ??? ... this is just silly.

By the way, thanks for the great answer. These are the type of answers I love: short, sweet, perfectly to the point & which directly answer the question I ask. You actually don't find the quality of answers like that much in forums these days. Anyway, I'm gonna chuck a +1 to you for the good & to-the-point prompt answer. It's too bad they couldn't have taken a couple of sentences in the manual to say that same thing. I think that would be very useful to know, especially considering the completely un-intuitive way the game handles it. I haven't been bothering much armoring my channelers since I didn't think it effected magic resistance, this sheds a whole new light on the matter.

I tested on normal after the 1.09 patch, in fact I didn't buy the game until the 1.09 patch.

The thing is it sounds like your playstyle is a very slow playstyle and you build yourself up very slowly. In your playstyle I would assume that the heroes seem balanced or even OP. However, if you took your playstyle and matched it against a fast (you could call it rush I guess) you would lose every game. Then to you it would seem that the balance was out of whack.

I don't necessarily mean that this game should be balanced around multiplayer, I think for TBS that is a bit silly, there will likely only be about 2% of the games population playing it. However the AI needs to be a lot better and faster, when that happens your playstyle will be squashed and you will then see that to match it you have to employ the same more efficient tactics. Then when you start building up faster you will see that heroes do not really scale, you can research and output much stronger units in far less time.

My latest game on Normal I have by turn 250 or so about 10 cities, I am only on my first round of offspring. I have already killed 3 AIs currently about to kill two more, they would all be dead if they were near me. The most cities I have seen is 3 from the AI, I have razed a few of them I captured as I cannot be bothered with them.

My heroes are a lot stronger than in ridiculous mode even my melee spouse, however, at turn 150 I complete the dragon quest and now I have a ROFL uber stack. That dragon will wipe out my all my heroes in one go in fact I imagine it would take another 200 turns for anyone one of my heroes to stand a chance against it. So I guess in terms of games economics why spend the whole time nurturing a hero to have a stack turn up that makes the whole business nonsense.

It just becomes a game where all heroes are good for is triggering quests and picking up unguarded treasure, which on harder modes is their only use.

Ya I don't rush out pioineers out of cities as fast as possible and I rarely build military units. My playstyle is more based on enjoying the roleplay/empire simulation feel than to rush to victory.

I'll tell you this... if they decide to balance it so that one must rush everything to even be viable in playing then i'll be among the multitudes complaining about this game. I play freeform sandbox games to take my time and have fun building an empire.. not to rush to victory. WHich if i did I would be bored of this game already since half the time i could simply steamroll opponents with my SOV within the first 100 turns.

This is perhaps my biggest complaint of TBS games of this generation.. they all seem to be leaning more towards death match game play styles rather than simulate an empire. Not to say that older games didn't have the deathmatch mentality.. but they didn't take it so seriously (or perhaps just didn't put in the time during development to make the AI capable of doing it) that I couldn't play the game with more of a simulator feeling than a RTS deathmatch feeling. If all TBS games continue this trend then the only difference between them and games like SC2 are the paceing . Which would leave me sad and playing CIv iV for the rest of my life

Maybe the gamestyle I want just isn't something game devs are willing to make, as i'm among the fringe of gameplay styles. The entire system has to lean one way or another.. and with diplomacy in its current form it certianly leans toward the deathmatch style. Granted  elementals storyline is basically a bunch of magic users fight for control of the world so maybe my expectations are rather outside of the games scope. But after seeing what firaxis did to V.. i was hoping elemental would fill in for this gameplay style. Seems like everytime i buy a empire building game i hope for an abstract simulator but end with deathmatch mode.. Sr2020.. Civ V etc etc.. only one that remotely met my expectations was SP 2(the issues with this game were many though combat was horrid, and since combat is an inevitable part of ruling an empire to ignore that aspect is certainly NOT what i want) and Civ IV to an extent.. But at this point it kinda seems like the end result will always be the same. X number of empires enter only 1 can leave ... FIGHT. lol. Gone so far off topic.. i'll refrain from posting anymore in this thread unless i have something far more pertinent to the subject matter.

Afterthought** Its not to say that elemental or any other of those games are bad games.. simply not what I personally want in an empire building game. Certainly no game is ever going to be exactly what I want but this rant is the result of watching all games of the genre slide away from my goal rather than towards it.

When you understand the tech tree and get a feel for the ai it is very easy to set yourself so that that the computer will never want to attack you. Especially if you eat one or two of your neighbours. Incidentally this makes it easy to win through either magic domination or the adventuring quest. You can play the game as long as you want and then end it when you are ready to declare victory. Once Frogboy gets to play with the ai some more then we can have different computer players playing in different ways which will alter the flow of the game.

it is utterly stupid if a hero can be 1 hit killed from just a bad dice roll. Consider other things that might be comparable to what the hero is supposed to be like; Sins capital ships, warcraft 3 heroes, MOM heroes, ect. They represent considerable time investment, along with a cash investment to make them powerful. Why on earth is it possible to 1 shot such valuable units? Like others in this thread have stated already, heroes do not scale properly against the rest of the games units.

Don't forget either that as they are right now the traits they come with become redundent super quickly. I think I'd prefer full hero custimisation as they progress through levels so you can tailor them properly to fit a playstyle (Should include powers, traits, abilities, ect).

Wow, Lots of people seem to all be "on the same page" according to them, in how we "all play our heroes".

I have basically outlined my strategy a few times in prior posts, so it is easy to deduce how I play (held back a few key secrets). But can you guys please explain how you make "uber heroes"? I only ask, because I have not seen it mentioned ONCE in these forums. Granted I have not scoured the posts until my eyes bleed, looking for the exact strategy I use, but since no one seems to be mentioning a few key ingredients in my strat I assume they are not using them. Basically what I gather is you guys (correct me if I am wrong, and I am not flaming, I am trying to be rational here). You get a hero, jack up his essence, and give him a bow. Is this correct? Is this your "uber heroes" strategy? I have seen that SD wants to nerf essence distribution because of the cheese it cause. I read that in a post from SD somewhere, maybe patch notes, can't remember. Please define this cheese to me? I can go the whole game with my heroes having no more than 4-6 essence, (if that) and only knowing one spell.

SO obviously I do not use the "essense distribution exploit" whatever that may be.

Next, Again, I am asking, not bitching. But what is the arguement you guys are trying to make? The post was about HEROES. And if they are under powered or over powered. I did not see in the title, that the cedar staff is nerfed, or that the amulet of roaming is underpowered, or that INT stat is too uber, etc. I saw it as a GENERAL STATEMENT that heroes are underpowered.

Now, branching off that... can I make a retahded hero? Sure, get a hero (doesn't matter type or level). Don't give him essence, Do not buy him gear, and run around attacking things. Presto, insta-gimp.

Let's pretend though that I am actually TRYING to efficiently use my hero. And thus, make him strong. I could hire a hero (second choice, having an essence regenerating offspring is always best), I could then buy him gear (or find some of it), I could then research spells that I will use, I could then give him buffs and/or summons. HOW THE FRICK IS THIS EXPLOITING, or CHEATING or not PLAYING THE GAME AS INTENDED? HOW????? PLEASE ELABORATE.

Now, based on that above paragraph, I can BEAT ANY ARMY STACKED AGAINST ME, WITH ONE FRIKKIN HERO, AND NO UNITS IN MY ARMY. NONE!!!!!!!!  Tell me, is that an underpowered hero or an overpowered hero? Oh I get it, I boosted his constitution, I am exploiting. I buffed him, I am a hacker. I bought him gear (oh god, how dare I?) and this is the cheese factor I use to beat the game. (I am not supposed to do those things, right? If not, then yes you guys are correct, heroes are underpowered.)

Mind you I am ONLY talking about on ridiculous. I assume on normal difficulty I can beat the game with one guy and a mace running around in clothes, no armor. But I only play ridiculous anymore, and I can WIPE THE GAME WITH ONE HERO.

So if you guys wanna argue or cry, or whine about a power being OP, I will support you. If you want to say such n such summons is OP or UP, I will support you. If you want to say BOWS are game breakers, I will probably support you (indirectly). But to say Heroes are underpowered shows YOU DO NOT KNOW HOW TO PLAY THE GAME. SIMPLE AS THAT. No other explanation. (well don't know how to play efficiently I should say. If you are having fun the way you play now, than you are playing correctly, just not efficiently)

Now, this may be the ONLY game element (heroes) that Elemental has done correctly as the "spiritual successor" to MoM. For the many many many of you who played that game (MoM), but don't know how to beat it, or have never played it, yet comment about it in these forums, Let me tell you a secret. THE EASIEST WAY TO BEAT MoM was with TORIN all jacked up. In fact, all the HIGHEST scores recorded were using that strategy on speed runs. Torin is a hero, Torin can be buffed/jacked/geared up to all get out. He can then ROFLSTOMP the game. SOLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So one last time, for those of you not following. The game does not have "under powered heroes". The game does need to balance certain items, spells, buffs etc. The game CAN EASILY be won by using one hero correctly and stomping the game in Ridiculous.

For all those of you who seem to be "using the same strategy as me" as you guys claim. If you do not agree with my above sentence, YOU ARE NOT USING THE SAME STRATEGY.

And for the record, Who cares if you have a hero using a club, a sword, or a bow? Does it matter if he uses Fire Giants, sand golems, or Air elementals? If you can make your hero UNBEATABLE then he is not underpowered. Oh yeah, for all those posting nonsense about "50% of the time getting first attack" blah blah blah. You are talking about Multiplayer. Then yes, I want first attack. In single player, WHO CARES? Give the AI the first 3 attacks. Without Sions I will ANNIHILATE THEM. I am 99.999999999999999999999% sure you guys are not using the heroes the way some of us are who can beat the game with one dude total.

Please, in future posts, explain what you mean. If you are saying heroes UP, I just explained how wrong you are. If you are saying "bows are too OP." or, "Summons are OP" etc.. then clarify. If your arguement is "I want my hero to be a dual scimitar wielding dark elf, named Elemen'izzt, and be able to solo the game" then you are correct in saying heroes CAN NOT do your strategy, and may seem UP. But if you play them the way the game is designed at the moment, they are MORE OP than TOrin was.

One final comment to the person who commented about "1 hero being uber with a bow" or whatever he said exactly... referring to Legolas. There are tons and tons and tons and tons of Heroes that used bows. Legolas of course pops up first. But don't ALL ELVES in fantasy settings have uber bow skills? How about Robin Hood? (oh yeah, not fantasy enough, even though he didn't exist IRL). How about Tanis from dragonlance? I am getting too far off subject to go back and look up old fantasy titles and individually think about who used bows well. Trust me when I say, there are many examples in lterature of good archers (heroes) that weren't legolas.

cool. I promise you I will, if you explain to me how to do it. Not how to beat the stack, I can do that in my sleep. But how I can prove it to you.

Lemme explain.

1-- The AI, does not use stacks of dragons ever. NEVER EVER EVER.  Or if it has, I have never seen it. EVER. So that is out. (proves you don't play the game on Ridiculous)

2-- The AI does use stacks of Catapults, which for your arguement is just as good as a dragon.

3-- I assume you read one of my prior posts saying "the ONLY WAY POSSIBLE to lose a hero is to get one shotted by a catapult or dragon..." and that is why you post your decartesian doubting post about "how do I take out a stack of multiple dragons?"

4-- Read number one again. THERE HAS NEVER BEEN AN ARMY IN ELEMENTAL THAT THE AI HAS CONTROLLED THAT HAS HAD MULTIPLE DRAGONS, ON RIDICULOUS. NEVER. That goes for demons too, but demons can't take out a hero like a dragon or catapult can. (can you see the clues here??? i.e. a hero can ONLY be taken out by being attacked first, by a unit that does UBER ranged damage. In other words, an archer, a hero with a bow on AI side, a fireball etc... CAN NOT KILL ME. A dragon with 50 DPS, or a CATAPULT with 25x2 DPS, or more likely 6 catapults with 25x2 DPS each can kill me. THAT IS IT. IN THE WHOLE GAME. THAT IS THE ONLY WAY TO LOSE A HERO.) Consider that the "crack" spell from MoM that could swallow Torin. Or whatever the spell was that disintegrated you by swallowing you into the ground. i.e "The Torin Killer." If that happened you reloaded a save game. In elemental, as I mentioned before, I have lost an uber hero twice, MAYBE 3 times ever. ALWAYS ON RIDICULOUS.

5-- It is obvious most of you do not play on Ridiculous judging by the posts and comments you guys make. As I have stated many times before, that is ok. Heck, MOST GAMES I CAN BARELY BEAT ON THE LEVEL ABOVE NORMAL, let alone "ridiculous". It is just that in this game, the heroes are so OP, and the AI is so weak, it is like sleepwalking. (trust me, my ePeen is far more brett favre, then Tommy Lee)

6-- To really knock some of your socks off, I will make it (tell you) so my strategy seems even more unbelievable. When you are late game (say turn 400) on Ridiculous, it is easy to be attacked by an army with a score of 1500+. In that army, it is possible to have 4-6 units of catapults. Also in that army, you can have 2-4 units of STACKS of SIONS, and you can also easily have 2-4 heroes. ALL IN THAT ONE ARMY. But wait.... there's more.... LOL... Those catapults will have 450+ hp, EACH. Now please reread this paragraph, I said to be ATTACKED, not to attack. In other words, they ARE NOT IN THEIR FORTRESSES. They are attacking me in MY FORTRESSES and they still have 450+ hp. So you got 4-6 catapluts with 450+ hp. You got 2-4 stacks of SIONS with 300 hp each. And you got a few heroes with 40 HP. (yeah, they can be level 2 and have 45 hp.). AND YES, YOU CAN WIPE THE FLOOR WITH THEM.

7-- Why did I ask you to "explain" how to do it? Because, I am too lazy to figure out how to "print screen" the battle, then save it to a folder or something, then figure out where it is, then copy it, and then figure out how to post that screen shot in a forum. If you really really want me to, please PM me how to do such a thing, and I will do it. Then again, please tell me how to "prove" I "one-man'd" it. Do I take a screenie of the battle summary at end? Also, how do I find multiple dragons, when there are none? I could scour the world to find a 1500 power army somewhere and home they have catapults, but not sure if that is going to be worth the time in my book. It might be easier for you to ask some people who ROFLSTOMP on ridiculous how they gear their heroes, then try it yourself, and save all this nonsense about screenies. But if you want, I will do it. Assuming I am not too lazy.

8-- Let me clarify. This might be confusing to some people, so I will try to be as concise as possible. I CAN beat the game with ONE HERO, and maybe 2-3 cities. I can do it. Would this be the most boring game ever? Yep. Would it be slow? Yep. Would it perhaps break my streak of only losing uber heroes 2-3 times and having to reload? Definitely. Would I be winning the game only on CONQUEST, and at ridiculous level? yes.  Do I play the game that way normally? No. Being able to do something, and having fun doing it are two different things. I only said that it is possible, to prove the premise that heroes are OP. not UP.

9-- My typical game goes like this. In short short short version. Get capital built hire janusk. Scour goodies, do some research. Find my nearest neighbor. Take over his town and kill his spouse (they always have a spouse by, turn 10 or so, in my experience). Wait for him to found another city, or to come back and reclaim his old city. If He founds another, I wait for it to build up, then take it. Rinse repeat, until he stops making free cities for me. I then Kill him. WooT, 1 down a dozen left. By this time, I have found another 'neighbor" I have bought some sweet gear, got a buff or two going, maybe, god willing even a summons. I then kill him. WOOT! my Third capital city, I am now rolling in dough, and food. Now, the game is basically won. Yep, I could win it from here. But I don't I play around. I build some cities, Hunt roaming monsters, Build up my army. Terraform, then kill all who cross me. What does my army look like. Well, it usually has soverieng and one other hero. Sometimes janusk. Sometimes Janusk is in a second army with another hero. So I may have 4 heroes total. I am married now, and trying to breed like a rabbit. Assuming I am ovder level 5 or so. Not sure if it matters, but it is one of my bugaboos.... My 2 hero armies are now BUFFED, all given essence, and armed. I have not surrendered any cities, but if I wanted to I could let the AI take them back, then retake them at a later time. Depending on my mood. By turn 150 or so, I have my guys completely geared (usually), and compltetely buffed. I have now got a few summons going (fire giant to be useful... or any other summons as cannon fodder), I also have an archer or two. Sometimes I have 2 units of single archers, or maybe 1 unit of 4 archers. That is my uber stack at the moment. Oh yeah, everyone is geared, buffed, and jacked. None of my guys have over 20 essence, and even that would be high. I do this until I get some kids going, They usually start about 30ish essence, I gear them, buff them, give them some units (maybe a dragon or demon depending) and then use them to kill roaming monsters and level up. Now I have about 4 stacks that can kick ass. I have had the game won for a long time. But now is when I let my OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder) kick in and I terraform everything, I make my cities uber, And I level up all my heroes, and make sure they all have perfect gear. I do this, so when I start kicking ass I don't ever have to reload, and battles go FAST. I hate 20 minute battles, or ones where I lose a unit, and have to wait 14 turns to build another, or god forbid, I burn through 30 mana and need 30 turns to recharge (that is where offspring come in). I DO NOT NEED UNITS OR OTHER HEROES, BUT IT MAKES THE GAME MORE FUN AND WAY WAY FASTER.

So there is how I beat this 'super hard' (hehe) game on ridiculous. Can I do it with one hero? Yes. Will it be longer and more boring? yes. Will I have to employ a scorched earth policy? Yes. Would it be easier to just do quest victory? Yes. Is it more fun to conquer all? In my mind yes. I use no hacks, no trainers, no sneaky tricks or AI exploits. I don't use cheat codes etc.... If by number 9 above you can not see how I win, then I repeat. WE ARE NOT USING HEROES THE SAME.

DEAR LORD, I think I have to quit this thread. Everyone thinks heroes are UP. I disagree, I spell out how they are OP, and I spend hours repeating the same things. If you guys think they need more power, Cool. Please ask Brad to take care of that. Then when a ton of us can beat the game on Ridiculous while hampering ourselves with things like (no increase to CONSTITUTION) or so... Then you will feel like a goofball for arguing that they need to be buffed.

see this is the problem. Some kid (like a few of you posting here) take this as an "I am cooler than you" forum. In other words, I post a strategy to demonstrate what I mean and someone comes along "oh yeah??? well I can beat it without such n such. My ePeen is so big it....." Blah blah blah.

I can beat the game with no heroes too. I can beat it with no archers. ALL ON RIDICULOUS. Do you envy my ePeen now? Wow, we are cool aren't we? <sarcasm off>

Now since this was a forum about if Heroes are OP I will try and take it back to that direction. My comments, my "rants", my suggestions, arguements etc... ARE ALL THERE TO support my point that Heroes are not UP, they are OP. I don't care if you know how to get 50 gold mines, or 200 bowmen, or 16 kids, Or can take over 6 AIs by turn 4. I really don't. That isn't the arguement. It is "are heroes OP?" To which I add, Yes. And apparently you guys don't know how to make them OP. And because of this lack of knowledge someone starts a thread asking for KICK ASS heroes, and people chime in with "hell, yeah". If they get any more kick ass, the game will be so easy it won't be a game, it will be like cheating at solitaire.

For the record, even Glowing Ember and his "uber" strategy has no idea how to make them (heroes) uber apparently. First of all, I don't even remember who the scouts are.. But My hero will kill all 12 of his groups of 4 of them. Without "crossing his fingers and hoping to win a turn". Yep, all 12 of them. Oh wait, wanna hear something funny? I won't use magic. HEHEHE. You still have no idea how to do it, do you? That is ok. You are not dumb. Not a bad player, Not evil. Not crazy.... All it means is you DO NOT KNOW HOW TO MAKE A HERO UBER. And that my friends is the arguement. Most of you posting here talking about UP heroes DO NOT KNOW HOW TO PLAY A HERO EFFICIENTLY. If I had a hero with 100 essence, which I have had, He turns into a terraforming robot. Not a soldier. I like to terraform, it is more fun to me sometimes than stomping AI.

Yes, you can win game without heroes. Yes I can win it without any. Was this a thread about no heroes? a thread about how great crystal is when you make troops? Nope. It is about if Heroes are OP.

One more thing, I know most of you posting have no idea how to do it, because you don't post how to do it. I also know many of you DO KNOW HOW to make them uber. How do I know. I see people posting about ROFLSTOMPING on ridiculous, with mainly heroes. I have sent out an offer in multiple threads. "If you do not know how to get massive food, PM me I will help you." Or "If you need help beating the game on Ridiculous, PM me". Or "If you do not know how to make an uber hero, and WOULD like to, PM me. But beware it makes the game too easy." And no one PM'd me. NO ONE. So some of you must know these basic strategies.

Now in a forum full of kids as many of you obviously are, I find it hard to believe that people aren;t chomping at the bit to stomp on Ridiculous. Or assuming you aint kids, I find it hard to believe that Strategy fans (such as myself) aren't always trying to try a new strategy. "hey, I wanna do it with no caravans... how can I do that?" "I wanna try the game with no bows, hmmm, how would I go about that?"

But alas, the hardest concept for people here to understand, is that this IS NOT A THREAD on ePeens, or strategies, etc... This is about OP heroes. Which they are.

Anybody that's already played more than 3 or 4 training games out-of-the box can already stomp the AI on ridiculous. It's just a question of who can do it faster in a multiplayer environment (or single player for that matter, guess it doesn't really matter). If you think you have a killer strategy that beats the AI faster than everyone else just post it. Who cares? It's just a game dude. If it doesn't involve "cheating," "hacking," "restarting battles etc" then I'd be curious to hear it; I might even have used it already & dismissed it.

I posted my strategy which I feel is the most efficient way to beat the AI in this game the fastest way, which happens to coincide with what most others players have found (based upon # of concurrence). I have no doubt that there are people who can beat me using my own strategy, maybe having refined it more efficiently than I have. I don't really care, cuz I know it can be refined. I just want the AI to play a more challenging game it's just too weak for me, 1.1 will determine how long I stick around with this game. Personally, I can' t use the dragon quest as a super unit because it's broken on my system.

The AI does incredibly "stupid" things in this game on both the strategic and tactical level, like getting "stuck" on the motherboard & chasing particular units around on the tactical map enabling other units to just shoot down the "chicken chasers" easily. It's very easy to take advantage of the stupid AI in this game. I'm not surprised at all if you've found some weakness with the already weak AI that allows a couple of heroes equipped or leveled a certain way to beat a whole stack of "stupid" AI units, perhaps blocking yourself in a terrain zone like trees with mudslide that prohibits AI from even reaching you, or buffing + some defense spell or trinket in combo that result in a "no-hit" possibility for attackers (if this is the case, it's a broken game effect not a great strategy), buffing combat speed to 20+ and moving/slashing like flash-Gordon. Some of the spells don't even work on my system, so I wouldn't be surprised if they worked in a "broken way" on other player's system, somehow creating a "loophole" that single buffed champs could never lose. Perhaps that "fog" zone around the tactical map has some wierd defense effect that most players haven't figured out yet (since it's not listed in the manual). How many times I've led monsters on a "wild goose chase" in fog zones while my other archers just shot them down I can't even say.

It all just comes down to time. If you've found a way to take down all the AIs really quickly, like 100 to 200 turns into the game on a large map ridiculous setting (which I always play), then Kudos to you. My best score has been about 300 turns, but I'm sure this can be refined. Whether your strategy will work against other human players in multiplayer game ... only a multiplayer game match will determine ... but I can assure you that most other human players with some game experience are not going to play as "stupidly" as the AI does in this game ... also if multiplayer battles are left to "auto combat" I'd imagine this would lend itself to different sort of "efficiency" as to unit builds, maybe archers arent the best choice in "auto resolve" ... frankly I haven't spent any time trying to determine efficiency of unit combo for "auto" combat.

thank you for taking this back on topic in a civil manner. I will PM you with how to do it if you would like. On one condition. DO NOT POST it in a forum as it is a HUGE spoiler. Do not say, "oh yeah... I knew that, I wasn't talking about making them uber that way." or "oh that is a hack/exploit/cheat/non-intended strategy" etc. Opps I guess those are a few conditions. If you want me to tell you how to annihilate the game with ONLY heroes. EASILY. Please PM me, and I will tell you step by step. Although after a few steps I am sure you can figure out the rest yourself.

Just please understand this will ruin the game for you as it is, (assuming you use the strategy of course) and if you post it, it will spoil the excitement for others in learning the strategy.

I would appreciate you to reply in this thread that "Fish is correct in his remarks that it IS POSSIBLE to make an OP hero, and it WILL be nerfed soon. But at the moment, they are OP, and do not need buffed." I am not asking you to say that the dagger is the best weapon, or that a melee hero level 1 can kill 40 dragons etc.. I am just asking you to post (assuming you agree) that IT IS INDEED possible to use the game mechanics AS IS to ROFLSTOMP with only heroes. Please send me a PM and I would love to tell you the strat. Heck, you can send it to all your friends, I don't care. This isn't about who is better, or can beat who. This is a strategy game with hopefully mature people trying to help Elemental get better.

I admit I do not know the best strategies, or every intricacy of the game. I have not "Played the Di*K off this game" as someone so eloquently put it in a different thread. LOl. (too funny).

I do not know what is broken about "Enchant". To be honest, not even sure what enchanting is? essence? Buffs? summons? Please elaborate.

For the record, i did follow this up nicely with fishslayer and we will see what kind of hero suggestions he has. Let us please try to keep it civil, I have to remember myself to be careful when i post at 5 am in the morning.