The implications of global mana pool (discussion and suggestions)

Spitz

Join Date 03/2006

+10

The implications of global mana pool (discussion and suggestions)

If mana becomes a global pool and essence is a binary value, what implications would you like to see that have for gameplay?

Does this mean that every caster with essence will be able to cast every spell? What role will wisdom play? Will there still be only one type of mana? What will effect will shards have now?

I'd like to see wisdom become the amount of mana a caster can channel per turn. Any character can cast any spell, but if you're casting a big spell with a low-wisdom caster, it might take multiple turns to cast. In tactical combat, wisdom would determine mana channeled per AP. Because some big spells would take multiple strategic or tactical turns to cast, the magical system would now have a use for spells allowing you to detect other casters' current spell and interrupt spells.

I'd also like to see shards decrease the mana cost of spells in their "class" by a set number per shard owned, rather than the current damage multiplier. I think that allows them a role in all magic, rather than just tactical combat damage spells, and also makes spells more easily balanced.

It would also be nice if arcane knowledge were removed and replaced with a mana cost to research spells. The mana slider system in Master of Magic was great because you had to make important choices about how much mana you were going to save, versus how much you were going to use in research versus how much you were going to improve your casting ability. In Elemental, mana could be split between being used to increase the size of the mana pool versus spell research versus imbuing versus use in casting, giving the player important and interesting choices about resource usage.

How will mana be generated? Each caster with essence should add a small amount of mana to the pool each turn. Controlled shards should add a significant amount of mana to the pool every turn, since they're the source of all magic in the world.

Other options would include giving each caster a spellbook a la HOMM. Then spells could be obtained by visiting cities with spell training buildings and rare spells could be learned by individual casters via quests, thus making a real difference between different spellcasters. Wisdom might also be used to determine how fast a caster could learn a spell or whether they could learn the spell at all.

What implications would you like to see from a global mana pool and binary essence?

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The more I think about it, the more I'm enamored with linking imbued heroes to specific shards. It limits imbuing in an organic way, makes shards critically strategically important, and, by giving hero element-specific bonuses upon imbuing depending on which shard is used to imbue them, gives another way to differentiate casters.

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and, by giving hero element-specific bonuses upon imbuing depending on which shard is used to imbue them, gives another way to differentiate casters.

That's a good idea. You should re-post this with a proper subject so it can be found.

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i like global mana. currently if you want to play the magic game you need to imbue as many people as possible to increase you overall magic regen. if mana is global and essence determines the max power of spells you can cast then imbuing becomes what it's meant to be: sacrificing the individual casting ability of the sovereign in return for the ability to have casters helping out all over the map.

of course, for this to work, the power of spells needs to be based more on the spells themselves than on shards. as the game stand at the moment, you only need one or two offensive spells before shards become much bigger problems.

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I think the global mana pool is the answer to prevent the high level Summon spam on the map, as you have only limited mana to support them.

For the sovereign to stay at home (for safety), I can't give any good idea except to steal the AOW Wizard Tower idea. It is too damn good so there is nothing that prevent people use the same method like it.

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econundrum1

Join Date 04/2007

+36

Ok my thoughts on this:

Firstly I like the idea of a kingdom/Empire mana pool but it does have wide ranging implications, I also like the idea of replacing enchantment slots with maintenance cost, easier to manage I think and all round more sensible. So what do I see as the implications;

How will they handle imbue spells and how will the balance work under the new system.

Firstly imbue as it stands deducts from essence because that means it has a permanent cost to your sovereigns own power if it just uses mana even a lot of mana there is little point in not imbuing all your champions over time.

So how will the game handle this, well my suggestion is as follows.

Firstly each kingdom / Empire has a maximum mana cap, this is determined by a fixed start amount + the number of shards controlled by the empire + a value or % can be added by certain buildings that act as mana batteries.

For each channeller in your Empire/Kingdom the cap is reduced by a set amount (only spell casters not summons that have mana and fixed abilities. This means you need to sacrifice power to create more channellers.

The amount of Mana an empire or kingdom produces a turn is determined by a base amount plus any shards controlled + bonus % or amount for techs or buildings.

Enchantments and summoned units have maintenance cost in mana this is deducted from the mana the kingdom or empire produces each turn, then any left over is taken from their mana pool. If there is not enough summoned units vanish first then enchantments at a rate of one a turn randomly. Some structures or tech could also lower maintenance costs.

These are my ideas of how it could work, I doubt they are exactly what Stardock are implementing.

One more thing it would be nice to be able to summon groups not just single creatures.

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I agree with a lot of the thoughts on this thread that the bones of a better magic system are there; given the amount of information we have it seems like:

1) Global mana becomes another resource that you can stockpile. I am assuming there will also be related mana generation buildings, etc. This is also nice strategically, as it allows you to save it up before going in with your casters and laying down multiple turns of chain lightening.

2) Essence is binary (cast / no cast), but there will still be costs for each spell. Hopefully wisdom will determine how much mana any given caster can put into a spell in ONE turn. I would prefer to see how this interacts with the other game mechanics before expanding out to allow for multi-turn spells.

3) I like how damage is affected by Intelligence and number of shards right now. I think that this should stay the same, and that shards should also add a certain # of mana a turn.

3) Maintenance costs for spells should help with the Summon spam, and make the admittedly cool unit models that much more fun and meaningful. No longer will each of my casters get their own Fire and Stone giant escort.

The changes to the system outlined above would allow for differentiated casters organically as they level. Fighter with just enough mana to heal, magic blaster, balanced artillery is all about selecting which stats to improve as you level. Combined with more abilities and a deeper item system based on those ability,(extra healing, lower summoning maintenance, elemental affinities, improved mana regen) and I think the true potential of the game really opens up.

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Quoting M. Agrippa,

reply 32

I really like the idea of giving imbued heroes special ability trees that they can put points into as they level, to allow casters to specialize in healing magic, defensive magic. This might work with linking imbued heroes to specific shards, so which element a hero is linked to could determine which special ability tree(s) they have access to when leveling.

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I think that there has been a general agreement that there need to be a better skill / ability system for everything, although the hero specific ones are what I think is most lacking now. There are a couple of really nicely done units that have interesting abilities (Fire Giant and choice of abilities), but overall this is weak. Hopefully as the ability tree content is added, and more items are created and added to loot tables this will broaden out nicely.

Spitz, we are in agreement about the idea of ability trees, but I am wondering about the exact mechanics that you were thinking of. For example you could add something like a "healer" class unlocked via questing or the tech tree; Champions could then take this class either via an option on the character screen, visiting the temple of healers final quest location, etc. There would be all the fun of balancing out these classes, but the mechanism I see clearly for specialized magic. (Same 'class' system would work for specializing fighters, etc)

I am having more trouble seeing how linking a specialized hero to a specific shard would be a fun mechanic. I think the idea of having a class for a particular element affinity specialization is great (Fire Mage go BOOM), but what is the advantage of having them tied to a particular shard on the map instead of just getting any benefits and access to the skill tree via total number of shards controlled? (like spells are powered up currently)

Linking to a specific resource sounds like it could be a lot of micro-management by the middle game, where you have over a dozen heroes and lots of shards. I also tend to play on big maps, so this could be biasing me against things that don't tie into the larger game idea of global resources.

Also, has this been cross threaded into Raven's massive suggestion page? If not, it should.

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Perhaps the central pool gets depleted by an amount dependent on the spell, but the affect is multipled by a factor 100% if it is the channeller but 50% if it is an imbued champion. Or the central pool gets depleted by twice the amount if the spell is cast by an imbued champion (rational once for the channeler to tap the mana and once to send it to the champion)

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I would suggest the following - each caster has their own mana. They can use this (if they have any). The mana from the shards needs to be collected first in some kind of building or artefact. So, your capital city build the Orb of Power, and the mana gets collected in it. Casters can then be imbued, that is linked to the orb. All magical maintenance is taken from the orb first.

Each caster can drain mana from the Orb, dependin on some stat (like Wisdon). Within the Area of Influence of the Orb all the mana reaches them. The further they move away from it, the less they get.

You can expand this area by building smaller orbs in other cities. This way casters (heroes and units) can protect the kingdom or empire, but you can't simply overrun other kingdoms. Or if you do, you need casters with enough own mana to hold out until your new cities have built a new small orb.

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