The true face of DRM

taltamir

Join Date 01/2006

+34

The true face of DRM

DRM as a whole is not meant to stop piracy; no form of DRM has ever been effective in stopping piracy, nor has any of it ever been designed in a way that could be effective in stopping piracy. DRM is nothing but a trick to force customers to purchase the same product again and again; which several big DRM advocates (such as the CEO of sony BGM) have publicly declared as their ultimate goal. DRM pushers also came on records as saying that libraries are nothing but massive scale piracy by the government and should thus be shut down. It is no surprise that the library of congress (and many others) have been complaining about their inability to archive works with DRM as libraries are another of the real intended targets of DRM.

Software companies like to pretend that their product is both intellectual property which they license, as well as a physical product which they sell you at the same time. Furthermore, they pretend that somehow the two are combined so that the consumer gets the responsibilities of both and the benefit of neither while they get the benefits of both and the responsibilities of neither.

When you sell a DVD you are transferring a physical product, one that was manufactured, transported, purchased, and has to be disposed of (at taxpayer expense) when trashed. And has to be repurchased if damaged. Just like a car. This is taking the "physical object" approach.

Digital distribution does not do that. Digital distribution treats it as 100% IP that is licensed to you. You have one lifetime license to use a game/song/movie/program/etc. A license that does not need to be repurchased if your CD is scratched, degrades from age, or otherwise damaged. Therefore you are getting the benefits (you can make copies, transfer devices, and get a duplicate of the data at no cost) and drawbacks (you may not resell it) of the IP licensing method. Which is fair and reasonable; you must remember that in the license approach, you should not have an inherent right to resell an item.

If you wanted the model in which you the consumer could resell the DVD than you have to agree to a model where DVDs can not be duplicated under any circumstances, that the DVD has to be in the drive to run the game. And that if the DVD breaks then you are obligated to buy a new one at full price, even if you already purchased the game/software. This is a ridiculous notion since a DVD is worth under 10 cents, but the software on it is worth at least 50$. It isn't a car, it is a method of transferring the software, which is pure information.

Most unauthorized copying (called piracy by DRM advocates) exists to reclaim the benfits of either the license or the physical property method, but many users forget that if you reclaim both at once than you are going from protecting your rights as a customer and into the realm of thievery (which, ironically, is what the content owners do to you when they claim the rights of both and the responsibilities of neither).

I am very happy with license type digital distribution. Now in a system that no longer tries to exploit me and steal from me (which is exactly what software companies do when they pretend that their product is two different things at once) I am quite satisfied with purchasing software again. This is why services such as impulse are so much better than buying a DVD at the store.

Locked Post +1 Karma

Advanced Search

Watch this post

Do not email me updates for this post Email me updates for this post

Successfully updated karma reason!

Leo in WI

Quoting taltamir,

reply 46

Patent law is a blight on more than just the USA. International trade agreements mean most countries in the world are bound with insane patent laws, the new Iraq government even passed a copy of the DMCA with 2 weeks of their creation.

China, Israel, Eruope (with a few exceptions), Canada, Australia etc are all falling into the same traps in this regards. Europe USED to have sensible approaches, but with the unification into the EU those have broken down, and the EU patent system is as messed up.

In fact, since the unification of EU, patent system is better... before, each European country was having his own system... now, they all follow the EPC ( european patent convention )... At the international level, 184 country have sign the Patent Cooperation treaty ( PCT )... Rules 39 and 67 permit International Searching and Preliminary Examining Authorities not to carry out search and examination on certain types of subject matter, such as scientific and mathematical theories, methods of doing business and computer programs. The PCT does not provide for the grant of an "international patent", as such multinational patent does not exist, and the grant of patent is a prerogative of each national or regional authority.

About the new Iraq government, it is not relevant... everybody know that Iraq is somehow controled by the US, that the candidat from the first gov was selected by the US... sure that with time, a lot of copy of US laws will be voted in Irak !!!

Anyway, rules 39 and 67 allow any country having sign the PCT to refuse patent for computer programs... Since EPC don't allow patent for computer programs, Europe will not grant a patent for them...

In Europe, computer programs fall under the intellectual property and copyright... a example in these topic was the "one click buy"... copyright will not allow your to copy the code but will allow your to create a original code who lead to the same function...

I agree that soon of later, all country will have identical rules but somehow, as now, nobody will give up his national right... until rules are not identical everywhere, international enforcement is impossible...

Successfully updated karma reason!

While it is true that the laws vary, the overall structure is a blight on free enterprise and ingenuity worldwide. Some places are less messed up in this regard, but all countries are suffering from it right now and things are only getting worse every year as patents become more draconic.

Which countries/jurisdictions has this happened in? From a quick look online it seems it's gone both ways in the US, but I can't find anywhere detailing whether it's been upheld elsewhere, such as in the EU. I'm assuming EULAs are frequently the same across countries, even when the laws can be signficantly different, and so would be shocked if there weren't a number of western countries for whom EULAs weren't enforceable.

Also wherever they are deemed enforceable the law is in need of an urgent rewrite (although again back to the issue of politicians appearing to be happy to ignore any such issues presumably due to antiquated stereotypes about gamers)

Various countries... and yes there have been rulings back and forth, but they should have been struck down outright... generally there seem to be more rulings that favor them.

Another tricks eulas do is end with "Except where prohibited"... so they could tell you "you have no right to do X except where prohibited"... and it so happens that it is prohibited in all countries and/or states where the item is sold. this is an attempt to trick people into believing and accepting such laws and limitations.

Successfully updated karma reason!

When I asked about DRM and/or copy protection of Mass Effect 2 on the Bioware board people immediately started asking why that would be so important, and shoving down the "you just own a license and not the product" crap down my throat. Looks like the fanbois now even start adopting EA's mantra about reselling software is bad and everyone who cares about DRM must be a pirate. *shakeshead*

Successfully updated karma reason!

This is crap. I am furious that I have to install more junk on my computer just to get a patch for a game I bought. I really enjoy their games. Makes me sad but, this is the last one I buy from stardock.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Star Adder,

reply 53

Are you serious? There are idiots who have completely accepted whatever DRM scheme the publishers cram down our throats? Ha, it looks like my prediction that there will be time limits on future games may happen sooner than later, if people are already willing to bend over to this degree.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Colin, you can uninstall Impulse after patching and all your games that use it to patch will still run fine. You can also opt not to install Impulse and only play the base game as is installed on the disk.

Successfully updated karma reason!

colins, implulse is not a form of DRM. the games (even patched to latest version) work fine with it uninstalled. and it is never run except to download games and patch them. it is a convenient tool if you have many stardock games.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting taltamir,

reply 57

Impulse IS a form of DRM taltamir. How many copies of Demigod do you think work as intended unpatched? They rebuilt large parts of that game to fix the problems it had coming out of the gate. When companies release their games complete and with minimal bugs where patches are minor fixes at best, then you can say Impulse is not DRM. When they release them, often times broken and with major changes needed, the patches are hardly optional even if some claim they are.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Nesrie,

reply 58

Impulse IS a form of DRM taltamir...

Technically, in the strictest sense, this is true however in terms of Copy Prevention - which is Taltamir's meaning - Impulse itself isn't.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I've had some 2-3 games now work for a while, and then at some point decide that they are pirated (which they aren't) and stop working. Roller coaster Tycoon 3 and Sims 3 come to mind off the top of my head (though Sims 3 got worse after a certain update).

I used to think I didn't need to worry about DRM because it didn't effect me. I was following the rules after all. Now I've decided not to buy games like Assassins Creed 2 even though I really enjoyed the 1st one. I just don't know at what point it will stop working for me, and I'm not gonna risk blowing $50 for a game that only works while I'm logged on, and may not work at all 6 months down the line.

Frogboy is right. People who pirate games aren't stopped by DRM. They just find ways around it. Even with consoles, if you log onto craigslist, there are a ton of people offering cracked systems where you can play a million games on it for free. I've known people who've done it with the Wii and the DS.

So they as thieves get to enjoy all the free games they want, and I as a legitimate customer who spends WAY too much on video games is screwed.

Long Live Stardock! Thanks for keeping your games free of DRM! I will be a loyal customer as long as you keep that up!

The Library of Congress should get some 13 year olds to work there who know their way around those constraints. I haven't fact checked, but anyone who thinks of libraries as stealing content or government piracy needs to be water boarded. These people are sick.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting ZehDon,

reply 59

Quoting Nesrie,
reply 58
Impulse IS a form of DRM taltamir...
Technically, in the strictest sense, this is true however in terms of Copy Prevention - which is Taltamir's meaning - Impulse itself isn't.

Well in terms of copying often imperfect vanilla versions of games, sure Stardock games don't do that (not sure about all GOO games though). DRM isn't just copying protevtion though, it's also Access Control and in this case, access to patches. Now if Stardock pushed out fixes/patches outside of Impulse freely and did something like additional content inside Impulse (extra maps, extra demigods... extras), then I would lean more towards the not DRM side. Still have the forced proprietary server crap though which puts them in line with EA, EA being the one that just yanked servers for a game barely over a year old (PC).

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Nesrie,

reply 61

Still have the forced proprietary server crap though which puts them in line with EA, EA being the one that just yanked servers for a game barely over a year old (PC).

Which game?

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting bluebogle,

reply 62

Quoting Nesrie,
reply 61

Still have the forced proprietary server crap though which puts them in line with EA, EA being the one that just yanked servers for a game barely over a year old (PC).

Which game?

Lord of the Rings Conquest, release 2009 already had its server's pulled. Fortunately, I avoided that game after all the terrible reviews though I still play Battle for Middle Earth II (also forced prop. server).

Successfully updated karma reason!

with impulse you can back up a fully patched game into a zip file (which you are free to store on any media you want) and later use impulse to install it even if the servers are down.

with impulse you can uninstall impulse and the game will still run without any problems.

Impulse is not "in the same realm as EA", not even close. Impulse is less obtrusive than steam which is far far far less obtrusive than EA's crap.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting taltamir,

reply 64

with impulse you can back up a fully patched game into a zip file (which you are free to store on any media you want) and later use impulse to install it even if the servers are down.

with impulse you can uninstall impulse and the game will still run without any problems.

Impulse is not "in the same realm as EA", not even close. Impulse is less obtrusive than steam which is far far far less obtrusive than EA's crap.

You're taking that statement out of context. I am referring to proprietary servers being in the realm realm of EA. Not the overall package.

You are still using Impulse to say that Impulse is not DRM. If you have to use Impulse to complete a game, as in fix what shouldn't have been broken in the first place, aka acquire a patch, its still access control and therefore a form of DRM.

Successfully updated karma reason!

its still access control and therefore a form of DRM.

Which is something even Brad never really denied. Don't have the time to find the thread, but actually he explicitely stated that it IS a form of DRM. In the smallest. least intrusive and most convenient form possible though, which I tend to agree to.

I can perfectly relate to people who object to forms of DRM which force you to be constantly online to be able to play because I feel the same way. Heck, I even went ballistic when, in the early days of it, Stardock Central forced you to have an I-Net connection on your rig to download patches for Galciv2 while it was perfectly okay to dl them somewhere else and port the zip file over to your rig before.

But having to prove that you have a valid copy of the game just to get access to patches and upgrades is perfectly okay IMO.

Do not forget that so called "patches" are not always released for the sole purpose of bugfixing. More often they're supposed to improve your game experience.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Nesrie,

reply 65

...You are still using Impulse to say that Impulse is not DRM. If you have to use Impulse to complete a game, as in fix what shouldn't have been broken in the first place, aka acquire a patch, its still access control and therefore a form of DRM...

Well, of course its a form of Digital Rights Management - no one can argue against it - you have to log into your Account to access updates and patches for your Game. That's the entire purpose of Impulse. The difference between Impulse and, say, the File Planet website - where you need to log into your Account to download patches and updates to your games - is that Impulse is a Client based program that provides updates only to games and programs you have purchased through Impulse. I see nothing wrong with this as Impulse is only required to update the game/program and not to run it.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I much prefer digital distribution over the old buy-it-on-CD retail method. It's just so much more convenient. As discussed already, there is a trade off, but I think it's worth it.

The DRM situation for digital distribution can be a real problem and it's a total case of buyer beware, i.e. Assassins Creed II. It goes too far when it requires you to log in and/or be logged in to play or has activation limits. That's just cruel and unusual punishment.

Impulse and it's native DRM scheme (GOO) I find quite tolerable. However, there aren't a lot of games on Impulse that use GOO. Most of the big 3rd party games use their own DRM scheme. I recently bought Mass Effect 2 on Impulse and it uses EA's own online authentication system. I really didn't like that it installs two applications soley to support its DRM (Adobe AIR and EA Authentication Manager). However, it only requires me to log in once to authenticate there are no activation limits as far as I know. It's right on the edge of what I'm willing to put up with.

I only hope enough consumers care about the situation that publishers feel the pain when they release games with over-the-top DRM. It's really annoying the way I have to scrutinize every game purchase to make sure I'm not going to get screwed.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting taltamir,

reply 57

colins, implulse is not a form of DRM. the games (even patched to latest version) work fine with it uninstalled. and it is never run except to download games and patch them. it is a convenient tool if you have many stardock games.

Okay. Just to clarify for those who didn't follow this thread. I never said Brad or anyone at Stardock claimed Impulse was not a form of DRM. The quote above is what I am referring to.

When comparing Stardock to EA, I was strictly referring to the fact that they, Stardock, plans to force all players, even those on dedicated servers, to have to save Elemental games on their servers, their proprietary servers which means, like all the other propreitary servers, Stardock can choose to not support them anymore and ruin that part of the game, or in the case that they no longer exist, not be there to support it.

Now do I have complaints about Impulse... sure I do, but I still use it. I also use Steam which is worst. Ubisoft can take their scheme and shove it. Do I think Stardock is going to pull an EA and yank servers out from under players just over a year after release... no I don't. The point is they could and that bothers me. I actually like using online services that keep myself and my group from screwing with routers all day long. My point-of-view is strictly on longer term basis (although a year and 2 months is not long-term in the cast of LOTR Conquest) in that I would prefer completely seperate dedicated servers and/or Direct IP options so that the company can't turn around and say hey, it was a hard decision, really it was, but we don't want to pay to support these servers anymore.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Stardock, plans to force all players, even those on dedicated servers, to have to save Elemental games on their servers, their proprietary servers which means, like all the other propreitary servers, Stardock can choose to not support them anymore and ruin that part of the game, or in the case that they no longer exist, not be there to support it.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Where have you seen that Elemental will require you to save your game online?

Successfully updated karma reason!

It's in here somewhere. IIRC it was Brad who stated that savegames will reside exclusively on SD's server(s).

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Star Adder,

reply 72

It's in here somewhere. IIRC it was Brad who stated that savegames will reside exclusively on SD's server(s).

Which actually makes Stardock more like Ubisoft than EA, except Ubisoft is applying their crap to singleplayer modes as well. I believe this little scheme of Stardock's is multiplayer only. Still a crappy move in my book.

Successfully updated karma reason!

That doesn't make any sense. it would be impotent wrath because they would be going out of business for that to happen.

that being said. they don't need to change anything. Impulse already has an option to backup your games for an offline install. This means that if stardock goes out of business today and you have backed up your games, you can continue to use them even without the servers.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting taltamir,

reply 74

I'm not very happy about that part either. But as far as I know SD I'd bet they will see to it that we don't suffer too much from it and offer a patch in time before they shut down the server(s). If they won't however they'd have to fear the players' wrath which would be a considerable one.

That doesn't make any sense. it would be impotent wrath because they would be going out of business for that to happen.

that being said. they don't need to change anything. Impulse already has an option to backup your games for an offline install. This means that if stardock goes out of business today and you have backed up your games, you can continue to use them even without the servers.

Impulse and the dedicated server requirement we are talking about with Elemental, are not the same thing. An Offline mode will not fix a thing for an online multiplayer game that allows dedicated servers but forces you to save on proprietary servers. It simply won't work when there is no place to save to.

Successfully updated karma reason!