Magic overhaul

from Elemental Forums

I humbly submit these suggestions for improving the magic system.

Major points:

  • scaling: spells need to be based on level, not just shards. Something like X base damage plus Y per shard plus Z per level. Some of the low level spells like Flame Dart could have a higher base damage but less scaling so they'd be viable early game but then get replaced later on.
  • mage path: needs to be redone. I've seen a lot of great threads floating around and most of them are based on 4+ branches in the tree, one for each element. They need a similar structure, too, like "passive -> mancy -> passive -> summon -> special spell" or something.

Minor points:

  • coordination: spells are spread out over the mage path skills, the general hero skills, and the tech tree. I'd just like to see things better organized. General skills should contain the core spells, mage path should add supplementary spells, summons, and passives, and the tech tree should have the more general spells like unit/city buffs. The damage spells, especially, feel scattered all over the place.
  • tactical de/buffs: are not very useful. Even with the reduced weapon damage (which is a big step in the right direction) battles still don't last long enough for de/buff spells to be worth using (usually).
  • ranged weapons: I really want staff of ice/fire to be available at Sov creation. There just aren't any mage-style weapons besides the staff, which requires me fight on the front lines which is a huge risk for a mage. I end up giving them bows which just feels wrong...
  • flesh bound tome: a great concept but feels kinda weak. Churning out slave units is easy but I never have enough space in my army for sacrificial lambs (I might be playing it wrong...)

Discuss.

7,521 views 8 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

 my opinion on your suggestions:

- not sure about the scaling. flame dart is fine, IMO. if you want a cheap early nuke, grab aeromancy and use the lightning bolt (or whatever it's called).

- mage path: i actually like them the way they are now. the repeated "evoker" traits seem a bit too much. i think there are currently 4 evoker traits, that's excessive IMO. 2-3 would be fine.

- coordination: you have a point. some of the spells seem a bit oddly placed. i don't like "gentle rain" in hydromancy. swap places with mantle of the oceans in water, imo. the food buff should be a general trait, not mage specific; mantle can be a mage thing - it's really just for spellcasters. plus, hydromancy is low tier, so you could get there fast and actually have fun with spell casting thanks with the mantle of the oceans buff.

i disagree that unit/city buffs should be in the tech tree. it's an important aspect of the decision which champions to pick. choices are good! it makes the games more varied. champion selection and progress have a big impact on your available city/unit buffs. i think that's a great mechanic to link the different game systems.

-tactical de/buff spells: not sure which ones you are referring to? i always find it worthwhile to shrink or slow a big badass enemy (slags/drakes/dragons/juggernauts etc.). in a doom stack, buff spells become meaningless since you can just roll over the other army within a turn or two; i generally prefer to give my champs 2-4 units each and not more (unless i have to deal with some really nasty threat, i.e. a drago or obsidian golem marching towards my capital or something). wiith smaller armies, theres naturally more room for tactical spells. i don't think this needs to be enforced, though. i'm sure there are people who enjoy a single stack of doom led by their sovereign, so there's no reason to nerf that. just don't be surprised that the other champs feel useless and tacitical spells are meaningless swhen you overwhelm everything with an uber army.

-ranged weapons: i guess it wouldn't hurt to have that option. i don't see what's wrong with the staff, though. your not supposed to run up to the enemy and melee them with that thing. there's nothing wrong with your mage standing in the back and passing turns if you don't want to waste mana on trivial combats. just let your soldiers handle that stuff. for real fights where your magic is required to win, a staff is a lot better than any fire/frost wand. you don't want gimped initiative on your mage in a situation where your spells are critical.

- can't really comment on the tome. i played a game as magnar and never really used any of those spells. i guess the idea is that magnar is so badass that he can solo most stuff anyway (once he gets fireball, savant + some evoker traits), so you can send a few groups of slaves along as mobile mana/health potions. never needed that, though.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

I disagree with most points.

Scaling magic damage: Are we playing the same game? Magic has too much scaling already! Many spells are way too powerful late game (flame dart, horrific wail with savant, any spell that scales with level).  Perhaps you really want  more set-level damage spells early on (lightning bolt was mentioned). Something mages can cast to do moderate damage at the beginning.  

Basing damage on shards adds a strategic element, instead of giving character level too much significance.

De-buff spells: I think you need to try using these more, they are useful. Curse and Graveseal are incredibly useful. Slow is very useful, and downright overpowered if you have 4+ water shards. Shrink is useful. Wither is like slow, get 4+ death shards and you almost cannot be beaten.   

Mage path: Totally fine with it as is, though some small tweaks (like not having the evoker traits all in a line, remove knowledge as a prereq for aeromancy) could improve it.

Flesh bound tome: Cull the weak makes it all worth it, your mage can have almost unlimited mana. Candlecloak is very useful in the right situation. Consume is a great option to have if you are being invaded and need fast mana.

If you are sending your mage to the front lines out of obligation, I humbly suggest you poke around with other strategies. I almost never charge my mage. Try playing a custom sovereign with the brilliant trait, and death and water magic. Pick the staff of souls and Warlock if you want to do greater early game damage.    

Star Control: Origins
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

While I agree with Brainjuggler, I don't think it's realistic that we will get a magic overhaul that close to the release date. Would just take too much time, while there are still that many bugs to fix.

Especially I agree that the Level of a mage should have influence on the strength of spell. It can be something very basic like 3 - 5% bonus strength per caster level (after bonus dama, that would be the easiest solution.

I'd like to add, that the whole air magic tree is a bit of useless. Like Brainjuggler allready explained, the battles are just too short for debuffs or a small ini buff to have any impact and to waste a whole turn in tactical combat for it. You have to wait until level 4 of air magic before you get any direct damage spell. Also I miss something like illusions in air magic.

But again, I don't think there is time before the release to do much about that.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting JustATourist, reply 3

I'd like to add, that the whole air magic tree is a bit of useless.
End of JustATourist's quote

I always thought it was the best. 

Air1 has the propaganda spell - great for funding armies early game. Also haste, haste on archers is a battle winner.

air2 has tutelege, helps level  up champs

air3 has two direct damage spells. 

air4 has cloud walk, very useful to respond to invasions or monsters entering territory. Also Titan's breath, which can skip the entire enemy army's next turn - battle winner.  

air5 has tornado, arguably the best spell in the game. Tornado is the counter to stacks of doom, it's almost unfair. Also Celerity, if you have the mana to cast it ten times on one hero, that hero is almost invincible. 

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting davrovana, reply 4

Quoting JustATourist, reply 3
I'd like to add, that the whole air magic tree is a bit of useless.


I always thought it was the best. 

Air1 has the propaganda spell - great for funding armies early game. Also haste, haste on archers is a battle winner.

air2 has tutelege, helps level  up champs

air3 has two direct damage spells. 

air4 has cloud walk, very useful to respond to invasions or monsters entering territory. Also Titan's breath, which can skip the entire enemy army's next turn - battle winner.  

air5 has tornado, arguably the best spell in the game. Tornado is the counter to stacks of doom, it's almost unfair. Also Celerity, if you have the mana to cast it ten times on one hero, that hero is almost invincible. 
End of davrovana's quote

 

Agreed, Air rules, always my first school.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

What happens late game as far as scaling might be over the top. The problem is that beginning game, the mage is doing less damage than a gent with a sword at every level until and unless you take the a couple of levels of evoker and to get past the heightened resistances, and they have been heightened, you need spell mastery. The best way to play right now is to grab an axe for a lot longer in LH than you needed to in FE. 

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Personally, it bothers me that there is no way to improve your magic whatsoever from research.  There are very few new spells, damage boosts, or anything there.  It feels like the whole tree should have been named "magic items", cuz that really seems to be all it's about.  I would really like to see some techs like "Improved Elemental Manipulation" or whatever that would increase the scaling of certain spells.

Why do people say Flame Dart is too strong at high level..?   I feel like it it's only *useful* at high level, but hardly overpowered - the damage isn't that high, and it still has a 3 turn cooldown, and it still costs 30 friggin mana.  But then, I'm used to Ridiculous level AI HP...

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting nukularpower, reply 7
Personally, it bothers me that there is no way to improve your magic whatsoever from research.  There are very few new spells, damage boosts, or anything there.  It feels like the whole tree should have been named "magic items", cuz that really seems to be all it's about.  I would really like to see some techs like "Improved Elemental Manipulation" or whatever that would increase the scaling of certain spells.
End of nukularpower's quote

All ranged staffs of the magic tree should have the air, earth, ... focus ability that increases the damage of the next air, earth, ... attack or spell by 25 % and gives the attacker an additional action.