i agree that the late game has a tendency of getting boring. i don't really know a good solution, and i don't remember a 4x game that didn't suffer the "boring late game" syndrome. once the early intense part of the game is over and you established a strong base, the snowballing starts and exponential growth ruins late game balance. AI either can't keep up or (on higher difficulty settings) plays by a different rule set (handicaps/advantages) that of course doesn't really make it smarter - just more annoying. once you start running away with the game, you might as well quit and start a new game. at least, FE/LE have the master quest, which is pretty hard and a somewhat decent ending, but other than that, it's pretty similar to other 4X games - not really much to do with that nice little empire you worked so hard for. and of course FE also has the mastery spell - that's not really epic, but at least you can finish/win the game properly without quitting. 

Boring late game is one of the most serious FE/LH issues. It comes out mainly of insufficient faction diversity, early break even point making the player invicible and lack of any power-tiders that can AI use to switch power balance back (remember that Iconian late game technology run?).

I have been curious since FE beta how Stardock deals with this and although there were gradual improvements, still more need to be done...

I agree, the basic problem is stack quality. In my games the AI has far bigger armies then me but numbers mean nothing in this game. They can't even use those numbers for a war of attrition because the player hardly looses any unit against those numerous but powerless AI stacks. In the three games I played so far I never made it to high level techs because the game is basically over after the first war in the midgame. After that you I was the strongest faction and ended the game with the spell of the making.

Another problem is the slowness of units on the strategic map. I just watch where the AI is heading and with my road system I am usually quicker then them and can reinforce my cities before the AI arrives. Spells that obcure the field of view in a large area, quicken spells for whole armies or spells that make armies temporaily invisible could help if these were made faction specific and therefore only partly available. 

Overall the AI needs either better algorithms to create more powerfull stacks or game mechanics that superiority in numbers meaningfull.

I agree 100%.

The only entertaining aspect of the late game is to conquer a wild-lands. But even then, it doesn't matter if you conquer them or not. 

I think with the game as it is, one solution to this problem would be to either add continents so that you can explore and discover new AI Factions that have not been beat up on by other AI Factions, or perhaps add a dimensional portal that could transport you to a whole new world.

I think what contributes to this problem more than anything is the behavior of the AI factions towards each other. As long as this game remains a "every man for himself" attitude, nothing will change. If Factions were able to forge alliances early in the game then the mid-to-late might be more interesting.

Perhaps both of my ideas combined would allow for a great mid-to-late game. 

In any event FE/LH needs some serious attention to improve this problem.

Excellent post,

I agree entirely. I'm an empire builder at heart (sounds like OP is the same) but there is little point building an empire and strong heroes etc because there is nothing to do with it once you reach past mid game.

I think fixing this will require lots of changes and you've mentioned some of them. Just improving the AI to the point where a war between a strong AI and a weak AI will pretty quickly result in the strong AI conquering the weak AI would make a big difference. Imagine if late game when you've taken out one enemy neighbour you next need to fight Kraxis (or whoever) who has bulldozed through 3 other factions and taken all their stuff?

Although even then as various people have said it won't mean much unless Kraxis (or whoever) could use their resources/heroes well and use multiple strong stacks sufficiently well to cause a real threat to a mid-late game player super stack.  Achieving this will require a lot more work I think.

Speaking to that, does anyone know if the AI is scripted to act differently when its at war or at peace? I ask, because I wonder if those times when the AI is at war with me even though I have no idea where the AI even is and we never see each other units (which is a whole other problem), is the AI wasteing all its production during these periods building units that it can never use against me and thus crippling itself?

Since TL;DR, I'm going to put an idea up front:

Here's an idea - once that tipping point is reached and the game can tell its toast.  

• A mega hero arises and unites the opposing nations - both empire and kingdom
• For the next X turns he and his band are traveling to super spiffy mountain to do something heroic
• Upon success the hero and all surviving (some could heroically die) sidekicks get more powerful
• If not stopped, for the next Y turns he brings the thing he got by being heroic back to a random city.
• If not stopped, for the next Z turns he consolidates power, the hero and all the surviving sidekicks get more powerful
• If not stopped, the hero and surviving band chase the Sov down from the random city to wherever the Sov is (somehow cloudwalk becomes mysteriously disabled)
• A final fight ensues - with the winner claiming the world.
• Ta Da - holy crap end game

Note: Probably have X, Y, Z and "gets more powerful" and/or # of sidekicks determined by difficulty level.  

One other factor that is critical and mentioned above - I have a 4 essence Fortress that I've put +production, +initiative, +attack, +hit points.  Its my only fortress, why would I want to build units anywhere else unless in drastic need.

But ANY unit built in that fortress is going to have:

+3 move and +3 attack (level 2 upgrade) - which I personally think is better than "go first"

+25 damage to damaged units (if I ever get to level 3 I think)

+4 initiative

+4 attack

+4 hit points  (which is rare since I usually play empire)

So even if I build a base spear dude late game, he's going from 6 to 10 attack, 6 to 10 hit points, and 20 to 24 initiative...

Needless to say I'm going to build my units for initiative and attack and only put on enough defense that doesn't impact my initiative.

I'm going to put them on a warg for an extra +2 initiative

I'm probably going to spend the crystal to give them +1 initiative

I'm going to spend a trait to give them +2 initiative

Another trait to do +15 weight and +1 attack to free up some encumberence (not that you can see it anymore)

I'm going to use my 3rd trait to give them +3 attack for anything less than my probably 29 initiative

Then first turn I have high initiative, extra attack and movement - and will probably go twice compared to the AI.

How is the AI supposed to compete with that? 

I've also focused my production and I may be able to spit out a high defense attack machine in a turn or two once the war machine gets rolling.    And one of these units can usually wipe the floor with multiple NPC units - if not a whole stack if up to light plate/chainmail.

First turn is KEY, especially with multi hit units (cleave, impale).

Initiative is dangerous.  I don't think it needs to be capped, but I think every unit should have an action every turn. 

Charge is dangerous.   I don't think it needs to be nerfed, but we need anti-firstmove traits. A la, on first turn prevent enemy from moving more than 1 tile to come into contact (hard to explain, but if 8 away, can only move 7 on first turn.. can't charge right in).  Call it spearwall or something.  Maybe require spear.

Swarm is dangerous.  Not sure it needs to be nerfed, but should have anti-swarm mechanics.

I also agree late game could use some work.

PERSISTENT METRICS - to compare game to game

Better boss fights a la OP

Some better way to finalize/kill a civ - needing to clear each individual city is just too much drudgery.

    Was it galciv that had the mechanic that if an enemy felt they were overmatched they would surrender to someone and it might not be the person beating on them?    i.e. They lose a few major battles/cities and realize they can't win.. they throw their lot in with someone else.

    Might have actually been EWOM, can't remember but vaguely remember it might have had to do with dynasties.

Here's an idea - once that tipping point is reached and the game can tell its toast.  

• A mega hero arises and unites the opposing nations - both empire and kingdom
• For the next X turns he and his band are traveling to super spiffy mountain to do something heroic
• Upon success the hero and all surviving (some could heroically die) sidekicks get more powerful
• If not stopped, for the next Y turns he brings the thing he got by being heroic back to a random city.
• If not stopped, for the next Z turns he consolidates power, the hero and all the surviving sidekicks get more powerful
• If not stopped, the hero and surviving band chase the Sov down from the random city to wherever the Sov is (somehow cloudwalk becomes mysteriously disabled)
• A final fight ensues - with the winner claiming the world.
• Ta Da - holy crap end game

Note: Probably have X, Y, Z and "gets more powerful" and/or # of sidekicks determined by difficulty level.   

Alliance tech being too late in the tech tree and AI being not able to use it is one of the most serious late game flaws. It was discussed even in the FE beta phase, as far as I remember. At least since the last AI update, we have some AIs that are not constantly in war with each other all the time and are able to trade etc.

One example of spiced, memorable late game from my favorite Galciv II. In one of my best games, two late power blocks emerged: me (in the lower middle of the galaxy), Altarians in the uper right corner and distant Thalans vs. mighty, but feebling Torians occupying huge left section of the map, Drath, smallish empire just bellow Torian space and Iconians, in the right-low corner. My empire directly bordered all of them (though Torians were a bit distant), so should the cold war proceed into hot, I would be pretty much first to hit.

Anyway, I felt strong enough to wage two front war and I basically wanted to maul Drath, since they backstabbed me before, but not occupy them, and to push Iconians out and také their border worlds. But would I be able to sustain all-out war? It took me a lot of provocations and influence stations to make Drath declare war on me. Being impatient, I declared war on Iconians immidiately. After few turns, pretty much everybody entered the fray. And while I was able to maul Drath military, deter Torian onslaught and také some Iconian colonies, I was simply not able to undertake the decisive blow to push particularly Iconians (with their late game tech run) out of the main powers. My allies, however, ended much worse, with Thalans being reduced to few planets (later surrendering) and passive Altarians even loosing few colonies to - by that time - weaker Iconians.

And what was the conclussion? While I was rearming for the upcoming global war nr. II, Iconians managed to produce incredibly strong battleship (uber-late tech) and in almost completed secrecy, prepared for attack. While whole empire was holding a fest and most officers were on holiday, Iconians stroke back and in few turns not only overran my frontier positions, but also slaughtered most of my fleet and occupied many of my core worlds. It was too late for my allies to be of any help. With Drath vultures entering the war to get their part, surrender was the only option...

Now this story reminds me of two things. First that I have to install Galciv once again and play it a little bit

And second that I would really love to have such memorable late games in LH!

I think this is crucial and almost single-handedly might prevent the "Oh, I guess I'll take this stack of doom and wipe out this random AI now cause I feel like it" attitude. Knowing that your actions have diplomatic consequences, and knowing that these consequences will actually affect you, is so important it's not funny.

I think they could add a civ's vs. the world mode pretty easily that might make things more interesting, even for good players. Basically, throw the kitchen sink at the players, AI as well, and have multiple different master quests that are the only way to win (so each game is not the same master quest). Monsters can stream out of the wildlands, events can pop up and terrorize civilization; basically just eliminate the checks that stop monsters from being a real PITA (such as no city-razing).

Quests should be easy to make. If they don't have a quest maker that can churn these out as fast as you can write them, then they need to invest in that tool. The art assets are a factor, but really reuse here is completely understandable. This way you can get several (or more) master quests which make this player vs world games more unique and fun. 

The civ's AI is not really going overcome the crippling hurdles (to the victory hump) anytime soon, so this mode would be an easy to implement way to appease players who are good and player's who are not very competitive(since they will essentially be cooperative).