seanw3

Join Date 12/2007

+141

[.86][Feedback] Dexterity: The Worst Stat in the Game

I have been meaning to say something about this. Dexterity does not equal the other stats in value. It offers only a minute increase to dodge and an equally small bonus to Crit Chance. This is not a sufficient bonus. I would say that 10 Dex is currently equal to 1 point of Strength. The bonus to Crit is even more laughable since it is impossible for trained units to crit. So there is never a need to ever give a trained unit Dexterity. The Dodge bonus is less weak, but weak nonetheless. Dodge, you see, is a static statistic that is rolled against accuracy to decide if an attack hits the opponent. Accuracy is a dynamic statistic that increases with each level.

So a level 3 unit will almost always hit a level one unit that has invested in a high Dodge amount. That is fine, but a level 3 unit would have the same chance to hit a level 3 unit that has invested in a high Dodge amount. This makes Dodge a worthless stat, because investing in more armor or strength is going to make your level 3 unit defend better than trying to make him able to dodge well. For heroes, Dexterity is a little better because you can actually crit. This is also problematic though because the increase is not enough to make a difference to any battle, and you must first roll a high Accuracy to even get a chance to crit. So why would there ever be an incentive to choose Dexterity over any other bonus?

There are many ways to balance Dexterity. The easiest way is to up the bonuses it gives to Dodge and Crit. A slightly more complex option would be to add a crit multiplier from Dex. Even better would be to allow trained units to crit as well. My preferred choice would be to have Dex confer a damage bonus to all ranged attacks. Any or all of these solutions would be great. Otherwise Dexterity should be deleted from the game.

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Quoting ,

quoting post

there is never a need to ever give a trained unit Dexterity.

that's for sure.

-> Maybe a bonus to ranged attack?

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I'm not sure it's only about adding *more* dex bonuses to dodge, as I already find my units are dodging very frequently in the game, but rather making dodge more *dependent* on dex, so you had to commit more to that stat.

As long as there were also mechanisms in place that tended to decrease DEF inversely to Dodge, like dex penalties to heavy armor. I think Def and DODGE should be somewhat mutually exclusive forms of damage mitigation, and you emphasize one at the expense of another. Right now I think it's too easy to be good at both Def and Dodge, which makes for lack of tactical variety and less interesting unit design.

But there need to be synergies to dex too, as you say, in terms of +accuracy to range weapons, and increased crit potential, otherwise it's still questionable why you'd want to build a dex based character.

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You can get god Dodge from shields, but that dodge still only going to work against low level units. Any unit over level 3 will hit almost every time. Dexterity should be the way Accuracy is countered at every level. I think they should do some work on Dexterity first and then balance the Dodge-Defense trade offs when the AI can actually get a unit to level 4 with god armor or Dodge.

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ManiiNames

Join Date 03/2006

+27

The only time I want Dex is if I have Finesse.

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I wish Dex affected initiative too, or accuracy : it is weird to have both of these not linked to any attribute, but being some kind of attributes of their own when attributes already do too little.

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Quoting DarkGaldred,

reply 5

I wish Dex affected initiative too

This. 5 Dexterity + 1 inititiative

And rework dodge so it scales better

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DsRaider

Join Date 11/2008

+70

Adding a +3 dexterity trait to a unit increase its chance to dodge by 1%.

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Quoting DarkGaldred,

reply 5

I wish Dex affected initiative too, or accuracy : it is weird to have both of these not linked to any attribute, but being some kind of attributes of their own when attributes already do too little.

I like the way you think. Especially dex = inititive bonus.

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Quoting DsRaider,

reply 7

Adding a +3 dexterity trait to a unit increase its chance to dodge by 1%.

I don't think it works like that. I am pretty sure chance to hit is Accuracy rolled against Dodge. Dodge is only as effective as the attacking unit's Accuracy.

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did you notice crits are out of control right now?

crit is not bad at all since you can 1 shot most enemies and do consistent dmg to high armor monsters otherwise very long to kill

i agree the scaling is a bit tuned down but SURELY not crit multiplier

i was about to make a post about crit being definitely too strong and it need a nerf not a buff

no initiative either, we discussed a lot about how initiative is too strong and now you want to give it more???

so either increase the scaling of dodge and crit chance (just by a small amount not much) or add some small bonus for bows

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The crit multiplier is not really out of control. In fact there are 3 factors controlling crits. Accuracy roll must be +10, Crit roll must be higher than target crit roll, and crit multiplier controls the power of a given crit. If you are doing excellent crit, I would bet dollars to cents that you are using a special weapon that increases these values. The fact is that putting all points into strength will do more overall damage than trying to crit often. Adding small amounts to the multiplier would solve many problems we are currently facing, like archer heroes having no late game usefulness.

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im ofc talking about crit numbers, i got 200+ crits in some case and often more than 100, thats quite insane and out of control imo

point is when you have a good weapon doing lets say 50 dmg and you already have 30 str 1 point more of str is just 2 % or so more dmg

i dont know the exact numbers so i cant calculate how much dex does but since the HUGE difference between a normal attack and a crit it could be worth

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The armor penetration of spears, daggers and bows should be dex * 2.5 %.

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someone with 40 dex would have 100% penetration then

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Quoting ddd888,

reply 14

someone with 40 dex would have 100% penetration then

Yep, but someone with 40 str will have very high damage, too, and it should be harder to reach stats of 30+ with the reduced stat increases.

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Totally agree it's the worst stat in the game currently.

Elsewhere I suggested that Dex be used for encumbrance rather than Str. (Str seems OPed at the moment.)

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100 dmg

20% crit

3x crits

average 140

with 20 str

average 168

with 20 dex

average 160

so as you see dmg is very similar, also the assumption of 3x crit is not the max you can get, with max crit dmg (wich i repeat is out of control and should be fixed) dex is nearly as good as str also providing some def

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mqpiffle

Join Date 10/2010

+44

Dex absolutely should not have anything to do with accuracy or initiative.

Encumbrance affecting initiative is just fine.

Level determining accuracy is great.

Dex affecting crit chance and dodge is perfect.

What needs to happen is the devs need to tweak and balance xp gain with dodge bonus and encumbrance to find the right interaction between the three. Then of course throw in traits and magic items and spell effects and sov bonuses and you start to get a feel for the veritable shit-storm of variables that come into play with these game factors.

The system is there it just needs some work. This is the point of the beta phase of development.

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Dexterity isn't worthless because damage-wise it is worse than strength. It is worthless because it's not something you can plan for. You could go 4 battles in a row before actually getting a critical hit, or get 2 in a single fight.

My recommended Stat Changes:

Strength: Affects Melee Damage and HP

Dexterity: Affects Ranged Damage and Dodge

Constitution: Affects Hp and Defense (including elemental)

Intelligence: Affects Spell/Wand Damage and Resistance checks (no more bonus xp)

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Quoting CdrRogdan,

reply 19

Unless they normalize crit chance to be considerably more frequent and hit for considerably less damage they should remove the mechanic alltogether. To be perfectly honest I'm not a big fan of being on the recieving end of a critical strike that, under normal circumstances, would have grazed my unit, especially when the chance of it occuring is probably under 20%.

Dexterity isn't worthless because damage-wise it is worse than strength. It is worthless because it's not something you can plan for. You could go 4 battles in a row before actually getting a critical hit, or get 2 in a single fight.

My recommended Stat Changes:

Strength: Affects Melee Damage and HP

Dexterity: Affects Ranged Damage and Dodge

Constitution: Affects Hp and Defense (including elemental)

Intelligence: Affects Spell/Wand Damage and Resistance checks (no more bonus xp)

That would work too, especially if we still forbid produced units to crit : that would make high dexterity for troops less stupid if it weren't a stat that only benefited heroes.

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Quoting CdrRogdan,

reply 19

Yeah, the critical hits destroy the TACTICAL part of the battles.

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Quoting Wizard1200,

reply 21

Quoting CdrRogdan, reply 19Unless they normalize crit chance to be considerably more frequent and hit for considerably less damage they should remove the mechanic alltogether. To be perfectly honest I'm not a big fan of being on the recieving end of a critical strike that, under normal circumstances, would have grazed my unit, especially when the chance of it occuring is probably under 20%.

Dexterity isn't worthless because damage-wise it is worse than strength. It is worthless because it's not something you can plan for. You could go 4 battles in a row before actually getting a critical hit, or get 2 in a single fight.

Yeah, the critical hits destroy the TACTICAL part of the battles.

It could be said that they enhance the STRATEGIC part, though (forcing you to adapt to unexpected circumstances).

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Good point, but that would only work if the summons would scale better, raise dead spells would be in the game or items to reduce the critical damage would be in the game.

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Quoting CdrRogdan,

reply 19

My recommended Stat Changes:

Strength: Affects Melee Damage and HP

Dexterity: Affects Ranged Damage and Dodge

Constitution: Affects Hp and Defense (including elemental)

Intelligence: Affects Spell/Wand Damage and Resistance checks (no more bonus xp)

I like this ... but critical attacks should still be in.

Obviously some weapons can impact critical chance ...

and Champions should have a base chance for criticals (do they currently?)

Then Path of the Assassin can unlock a crit bonus from Dexterity

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