I support Stardock, the devs and Brad Wardell!

Quoting mroberts82,

Quoting MrMT,
reply 33

Quoting Krelk, reply 32
Quoting BoydofZINJ, reply 29I support giving refunds if we are disatisfied.

Can we get a refund on this game?

You can only get a 75% refund.

Which is questionable, to say the least.

On one level, at least they don't say 'f off, caveat emptor', but the reality is this game was not what they sold (ie a fully-working release-ready product) and in the US at least it does not seem right to refuse a full refund for what is essentially a failed product.

Had they stated "this $50 is part purchase, part donation to an indie company that promises to keep working on this project in progress" that might have been a different matter. They did not. They sold this as a full-on release ready game. The CEO picked fights with people who suggested it wasn't, until opinion became so overwhelming he backtracked.

None of this is personal. I love that people try new things. Their effort to be a bit more transparent is laudable. This game is filled with potential character.

But they did not provide what they said they would for the price. Full refunds are very much in order.

Full refunds are absolutely not in order. People are lucky they even get 75%. Stardock owes you nothing. You take a risk when you buy a game, Stardock isn't the only company that has ever released an unfinished mediocre game, and they won't be the last.

To think you deserve any refund is laughable and way out of touch with reality.

Actually, when you purchase a product, you really are entering into a contractual agreement. The producer is offering a product with a set of adverstised features. The consumer is accepting the product with the expectation it will work as advertised. Since this game clearly does not meet its obligations, the producer can be held in breach of contract and the consumer has every right to expect reparations to THEIR satisfaction, up to and including a full refund of the purchase price. Brad is a libertarian, he understands the concept of free market capitalism and contractual obligations, regardless of whether he actually believes in them. Sadly, you do not seem to understand how contracts, even implied ones, work. Stardock owes us a working game or our money back. Which one of those options they owe is up to us individually since we are the ones that got F*CKED.

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Tridus

Join Date 03/2008

+110

Quoting tetleytea,

reply 40

I tend to see it another way. You pay $50 for a meal. You figure, it's $50, so it must be a really nice restaurant. You go, you eat, but you don't like it. Maybe even 75% of the customers don't like it. Do you pay the tab? I say yes, you do. You may not go back, but you pay the tab. Doesn't mean the restaurant might give you a partial refund, but not out of moral obligation--it's because they realize if 75% of the people don't like the food and they charge $50 a pop, pretty soon they won't have any customers.

If you pay $50 for a steak dinner and they forget the steak, you'd still pay for it?

Multiplayer isn't a question of liking it or not. It hasn't been delivered. Period.

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Quoting Arkenor,

reply 45

People have forgotten what community is about in the world - we've become corrupted by a consumer/capitalist philosophy that often lacks mercy and grace.

That's ridiculous.

I'll tell you what has become corrupted in the world. It is who the victims are, and who the perpetrators are.

Stardock are NOT the victims in this. Blaming the customer for this debacle, or suggesting that they're doing something wrong by wanting a refund, is a disgraceful thing to do.

Friggin AMEN. +10000 to this. Capitalism is the philosophy that producers make what consumers want, with the expectation that they may fail and be replaced in the market. I have no sympathy or love for a corporation, especially one that only exists to satisfy my needs and wants. If they cannot do it, someone else will step up to the plate. Blind loyalty only rewards failure and punishes consumers. Brad is a libertarian, he should understand the concept of capitalism and fully accept it.

Edit: I'm still waiting for my 100% refund. Tech support wants to string me along until every patch release and ask me if it fixed my problem. I want my money back. The game has obvious technical issues that are NOT going to be fixed in any "reasonable" time period. They need to follow their refund policy and gamer's bill of rights bloviating and give me my damn money back.

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Quoting nocomp22,

reply 51

Actually, when you purchase a product, you really are entering into a contractual agreement. The producer is offering a product with a set of adverstised features. The consumer is accepting the product with the expectation it will work as advertised. Since this game clearly does not meet its obligations, the producer can be held in breach of contract and the consumer has every right to expect reparations to THEIR satisfaction, up to and including a full refund of the purchase price.

After a lecture on "restraunts", we now have a pseudo-legalistic lecture.

You are mechanically reciting an imitation of juridic lingo, which happens to not apply to the computer-software industry -- which is constrained by laws & norms that are quite different from those which apply when a consumer purchases a house or a car.

I won't develop what I mean because I will not hijack this thread with a pretentious lecture on legal matters.

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Crypto, I'll try this one more time. Are you aware of the Stardock developed Gamers Bill of Rights?

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This is a ridiculous argument anyway.

This was Brad, in https://forums.elementalgame.com/391978/page/5/#2728865

Email sales@stardock.com. Tell them I sent you.

It's item #1 in the Gamer's Bill of Rights:

http://www.gamersbillofrights.org/

So you can shout as much as you like about whether or not you think we should get a refund. Brad himself thinks we should, and he's the chap with the deciding vote.

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Quoting Cryptomancer,

reply 54

Quoting nocomp22,
reply 51
Actually, when you purchase a product, you really are entering into a contractual agreement. The producer is offering a product with a set of adverstised features. The consumer is accepting the product with the expectation it will work as advertised. Since this game clearly does not meet its obligations, the producer can be held in breach of contract and the consumer has every right to expect reparations to THEIR satisfaction, up to and including a full refund of the purchase price.

After a lecture on "restraunts", we now have a pseudo-legalistic lecture.

You are mechanically reciting an imitation of juridic lingo, which happens to not apply to the computer-software industry -- which is constrained by laws & norms that are quite different from those which apply when a consumer purchases a house or a car.

I won't develop what I mean because I will not hijack this thread with a pretentious lecture on legal matters.

You won't develop what you mean because you cannot defend your position. Computer software is no different a product than a house or a car. There is an expectation by the customer that the product works as advertised, period. In the US, consumer protection laws vary from state to state and often do not keep pace with the rapid developments in technological fields. However, the concept of a product working as advertised is the base guideline for ALL consumer protection laws, and the foundation for consumer protection law is contractual law. Norms only serve to guide the development of law, which is all that matters in court (besides who you are, who and what you know, and how much you can pay vs. the other guy).

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Quoting nocomp22,

reply 51

Quoting mroberts82, reply 34

Quoting MrMT,
reply 33

Quoting Krelk, reply 32
Quoting BoydofZINJ, reply 29I support giving refunds if we are disatisfied.

Can we get a refund on this game?

You can only get a 75% refund.

Which is questionable, to say the least.

On one level, at least they don't say 'f off, caveat emptor', but the reality is this game was not what they sold (ie a fully-working release-ready product) and in the US at least it does not seem right to refuse a full refund for what is essentially a failed product.

Had they stated "this $50 is part purchase, part donation to an indie company that promises to keep working on this project in progress" that might have been a different matter. They did not. They sold this as a full-on release ready game. The CEO picked fights with people who suggested it wasn't, until opinion became so overwhelming he backtracked.

None of this is personal. I love that people try new things. Their effort to be a bit more transparent is laudable. This game is filled with potential character.

But they did not provide what they said they would for the price. Full refunds are very much in order.

Full refunds are absolutely not in order. People are lucky they even get 75%. Stardock owes you nothing. You take a risk when you buy a game, Stardock isn't the only company that has ever released an unfinished mediocre game, and they won't be the last.

To think you deserve any refund is laughable and way out of touch with reality.

Actually, when you purchase a product, you really are entering into a contractual agreement. The producer is offering a product with a set of adverstised features. The consumer is accepting the product with the expectation it will work as advertised. Since this game clearly does not meet its obligations, the producer can be held in breach of contract and the consumer has every right to expect reparations to THEIR satisfaction, up to and including a full refund of the purchase price. Brad is a libertarian, he understands the concept of free market capitalism and contractual obligations, regardless of whether he actually believes in them. Sadly, you do not seem to understand how contracts, even implied ones, work. Stardock owes us a working game or our money back. Which one of those options they owe is up to us individually since we are the ones that got F*CKED.

This fictional world you live in, how do I get there?

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75%? Really? What is the precedent or justification for a partial refund? Are you allowed to keep 25% of the game or something?

Then again, some might make the argument that 1.07 is 25% of a game, so....

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Quoting mroberts82,

reply 58

Quoting nocomp22,
reply 51

Quoting mroberts82, reply 34

Quoting MrMT,
reply 33

Quoting Krelk, reply 32
Quoting BoydofZINJ, reply 29I support giving refunds if we are disatisfied.

Can we get a refund on this game?

You can only get a 75% refund.

Which is questionable, to say the least.

On one level, at least they don't say 'f off, caveat emptor', but the reality is this game was not what they sold (ie a fully-working release-ready product) and in the US at least it does not seem right to refuse a full refund for what is essentially a failed product.

Had they stated "this $50 is part purchase, part donation to an indie company that promises to keep working on this project in progress" that might have been a different matter. They did not. They sold this as a full-on release ready game. The CEO picked fights with people who suggested it wasn't, until opinion became so overwhelming he backtracked.

None of this is personal. I love that people try new things. Their effort to be a bit more transparent is laudable. This game is filled with potential character.

But they did not provide what they said they would for the price. Full refunds are very much in order.

Full refunds are absolutely not in order. People are lucky they even get 75%. Stardock owes you nothing. You take a risk when you buy a game, Stardock isn't the only company that has ever released an unfinished mediocre game, and they won't be the last.

To think you deserve any refund is laughable and way out of touch with reality.

Actually, when you purchase a product, you really are entering into a contractual agreement. The producer is offering a product with a set of adverstised features. The consumer is accepting the product with the expectation it will work as advertised. Since this game clearly does not meet its obligations, the producer can be held in breach of contract and the consumer has every right to expect reparations to THEIR satisfaction, up to and including a full refund of the purchase price. Brad is a libertarian, he understands the concept of free market capitalism and contractual obligations, regardless of whether he actually believes in them. Sadly, you do not seem to understand how contracts, even implied ones, work. Stardock owes us a working game or our money back. Which one of those options they owe is up to us individually since we are the ones that got F*CKED.

This fictional world you live in, how do I get there?

The world where contractual obligations are fulfilled? It doesn't exist. I'm merely making a philosophical point. Laws, like contracts, are created and enforced by human beings, therefore I fully expect them to be broken, ignored, and bent to the purpose at hand. I still expect a refund on this game, however.

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Quoting mroberts82,

reply 58

This fictional world you live in, how do I get there?

I know others have tried, I'll try again. Here is a link to the fictional world. This fictional document was ESTABLISHED by STARDOCK. PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO POINT 1.

http://gamersbillofrights.com/

Get it now?

Geesh... I seriously cannot understand how people can take this position when it's STARDOCK we are talking about! When you do something as brash and profound as the gamers bill of rights, you better be DAMN sure you put your money where your mouth is.

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Okay, so...back to the OP. "I support Stardock, the devs and Brad Wardell".

I, too, support Stardock. Why? Because they are the only studio since the broad adoption of the Internet who has ever cared. I used to be highly involved in multiple Civ forums, and...Firaxis? Nowhere to be found. Infogrames? Nope. Infogrames even sued a fan who proudly showed them the mod he did. WTF?!?? Blizzard and Command & Conquer--okay they cared a little bit. Microsoft--yeah right. Origin Systems, I even told them, I am going to stop being a customer of Ultima Online because you don't offer worlds both with and without player-killing. I was told, "Ultima Online is player-killing. Go and get yourself some friends and go adventuring together." I stopped subscribing to Ultima Online.

I can't think of any commercial gaming company who ever engaged the users beyond the basic customer-service interactions. I can think of plenty of non-profit undertakings that did, and I can think of companies before the Internet who did (Sir-Tech, for example, cared, but you had to call them long-distance).

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It's sad that every thread gets high jacked like this. I support SD in getting the game to where it should be, because hell I want to play it. This constant bickering and shit is not helping anything.

For the record: Matt Gallant(stalker) has multiple accounts over at qt3, how much you want to bet some of the louder people here are him?

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STARDOCK ROCKS!!!!!

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SD lost me as a fan tonight.

They're just another company to me now. And that makes me sad.

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Quoting Rune_74,

reply 64

It's sad that every thread gets high jacked like this. I support SD in getting the game to where it should be, because hell I want to play it. This constant bickering and shit is not helping anything.

For the record: Matt Gallant(stalker) has multiple accounts over at qt3, how much you want to bet some of the louder people here are him?

LOL, I love it when people want to make utterly unprovable bets. I'm sure all of this is coming from one guy. I bet all the poor reviews are the same reviewer too.

The one thing we do agree on; it is sad that threads keep getting hijacked like this. It's a shame that there is so much resentment with this release. I for one, was hoping for a much happier atmosphere. Unfortunately this is less like a wedding and more like a funeral.

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Apparently some people can't read. The OP created this thread to show his support for Stardock, but I guess the trolls can't resist slobbering over every thread about how much they're disappointed Elemental didn't turn out to be an exact copy of MoM

Anyway, I think Elemental is incredible. Gorgeous graphics, great music, and tactical combat is fun. I love the unit design -- perhaps my favorite feature of the game. The campaign is a great easing-into of the Elemental world.

I personally think this game is more fun than Civilization IV... and it's just gonna get better. Every game Stardock publishes has rocky releases, but they get better over time, and the modding potential of this game astounds me.

Great job on a great game, Stardock, and don't let the haters get you down! I'm currently recommending this game to all of my gaming friends.

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Again:

I support them as well. I support them unconditionally, and I hope that they recover from this debacle.

I believe the strongest way to do this is by providing vicious, unrestrained, and honest feedback. These are big boys. They don't need a harem of fans petting them and cooing. Its frankly insulting that people assume that Stardock employees are these delicate little flowers that need to be nurtured carefully in order to thrive. Don't coddle, its patronizing.

They don't need "solidarity." They need solid feedback.

After separating himself from the development process, the primary developer has expressed his dismay over the state of the game. He has apologized for it. Why must we continue to white knight this? It takes some serious brass balls to make a declaration like Brad did. These are grown men. It is insulting to pamper a grown man, more insulting than saying "This game is unfinished, here are the reasons why."

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Always!

Although I would never say " unconditionally". My support is based on several conditions, including:

Good business practices

Honesty

Great communication skills

Respect of your costumer base

etc...

As long as these conditions are true, Stardock is allowed to make mistakes and still get my money's worth.

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Man I am having fun with Elemental. Last patch made it a lot more fun.

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I hope Stardock can make this time, we really need a good indie game design company like Stardock.

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I love all the legal eagles in this thread. Hey heres a good one for you. Look up things on Copyright laws on computer games. Those laws actually take precedence and protect the companies from having to refund you for your software since once you opened it you could have copied it then returned it to get your money back. Stardock just isn't one of those companies thats gonna shove that up your butt and tell you no.

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Quoting Arkenor,

reply 45

They wrote the Gamer's Bill of Rights! If we're not willing to hold them to it, and they're not willing to abide by it, then what was the point of it?

Exactly. I respected stardock in large part because they wrote the gamers bill of rights. Now they are completely throwing it out the window as soon as it effects them negatively?

You want to know what that tells me? That tells me that it was a publicity stunt. That is the main reason I've lost respect for stardock.

At least with other companies(Like valve) I know where I stand, but to be betrayed by a company I respected is quite a bit harder. They should have given out full refunds, if not for their broken game then at least for their lack of multiplayer.

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Quoting Cryptomancer,

reply 54

After a lecture on "restraunts", we now have a pseudo-legalistic lecture.

You are mechanically reciting an imitation of juridic lingo, which happens to not apply to the computer-software industry -- which is constrained by laws & norms that are quite different from those which apply when a consumer purchases a house or a car.

I won't develop what I mean because I will not hijack this thread with a pretentious lecture on legal matters.

Really, you're saying people can't rely on the same consumer protection laws from software developers that they can from every other industry?

Well in that case sir, I have some really great software that I'd like to sell you!

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