So let me get this straight, you MUST spend essence to create city/towns? Is this correct?

You are not required to spend essence to maintain a town/city?

If so, would'nt it be bettter to let your opponent create towns/cities, and just capture them, if there isn't a corresponding cost in essence (which I understand to be finite) to do so?

Or does the original creator get the essence back, if a city/town is captured?

Same as my last reply. Defenders are almost always given a huge edge in battle. It takes a lot less resources, in a well balanced game, to defend two cities than to defend one and attack another. So my second city is going to get garrisoned with troops (say 2/3 in my "capital and 1/3 in the new city) An agressor with only one city would have to build up to the point of maintaining protection of his capital (or risk losing it) and also building up a superior force to attack the new town... again I am seeing a tendency to want to get your essence back from conquered lands. Not saying YOU are advocating this but I see themindset quite a bit. I think that would be an almost game-breakingly poor decision.

I think there is always going to be a risk/reward for expanding - there always is in this type of game. I think with as little as we know, to make the assumption that expanding is going to leave you in a position that your new town is just going to be taken over - I think that is reading a bit much into the tea leaves, it is exactly balancing between the Gandalfs and the city builders that I think will determine how great this game is.

It seems it's also going to depend on map size.  At first, I didn't know what the heck you guys were talking about.  Then I remembered that not everyone plays on "huge" map sizes.  Since on a large map, the changes of finding the enemy before they can build a resonably strong first town is slim to nil.

I know some of you want the Uber Channeler to be exactly equal in combat power to the City troops + lesser Channeler, but in a direct confrontation, the troops + channeler HAS to be MORE powerful than the Uber Channeler.

The advantage that the Uber Channeler will automatically enjoy is that he IS his combinded power.  The city owning channeler with troops (while overall much more powerful) still has the MASSIVE operational challenge of focusing all his might at once against the Super Channeler.  While the Super Channeler will have a much easier time picking his fights and avoiding fighting combined armies that might be a threat to him (especially if the Channeler can use essense to increase his speed stats).

So, while overall weaker, the Uber Channeler will enjoy the simplicity of not having to coordinate and time the deployment of his forces to the same extent as the Lesser Channeler (who has many cities and units).

Also, dont forget the multiple VCs. Maybe an expander WOULD have an advantage for a conquest VC, but the uber channeler (because only small groups can crawl dungeons) would be at an advantage for the Quest victory. Maybe the guy who goes somewhat Gandalf builds one uber fortress city, but rather than expand his borders he runs around clearing dungeons and following the quest. Another balancing issue - the builder/conquester that plays his gamestyle well should be achieving the military force to crack the nut (that sounds wrong) of the Uber channeler's capital uber fortress at about the same time that the equally well played uber channeller is getting close to finishing the Ultimate Quest.

And definitely I feel like if the builder overextends himself on expansion, those border towns are going to be gifts to the uber channeler and his small group of heroes.

I'm not sure whether to agree or disagree with you. The Uber Channeler is his combined power, true. That's his strength and his weakness. It means when he is on the field, pretty much everything is on the field. But that means that he can't divide his forces, protect or fight on multiple fronts. He can't attack and defend.

But at the same time if the City troops + lesser Channeler is weaker in direct confrontation than the Uber Channeler then there would be no outright way for the lesser Channeler to defeat the Uber Channeler. In other words, if the Uber Channeler made a bee-line for the lesser Channeler's capital city, the lesser channeler would be completely unable to stop him. So I guess I do agree with you after all.

It is going to be one hell of a ride getting the balance right, though.

Well I'd imagine a channeler would still be pretty uber if he's got one, maybe even two settlements besides the first. And even if he doesn't, there is still the problem of attacking and defending. You cannot invade your enemy and defend your town(s) if your military might is all concentrated into one unit.

From what I've read, I wouldn't assume losing your last town would end the game (although settings for that kind of thing are a must).

Even still, from all Brad's talk about being able to hoard essence to create an uber channeler, I still get the impression that the intention is to have said channeler at the head of a (small) army, not as the army. And I'm sure having at least one city will confer major advantages over being homeless. So if all my assumptions and impressions are anywhere close to being right, I imagine a lone, homeless channeler to be relatively easy pickings.

But I guess we don't really know much at all for certain. We could discuss this for pages and pages, but it'd probably be more productive to wait for alpha or beta to see how things are before trying to figure out the right balance.

Well... how does spell research work? Can the channeler wear equipment like normal units?

If you need libraries to research spells and to create some gear for yourself, the "uber channeler" won't be uber for very long compared to a city builder.  That's all but impossible to balance properly.

So, by the end of the process I don't expect it. You're going to need some cities. The question becomes do you imbue some really powerful generals with your essence, or act as your own uber general?

Actually, I don't have the quote to prove it, but brad definitely stated that you start the game with just yourself (i.e. the channeler) wandering around.  I think he said that if you then decided to invest essence in an area to make it habitable people would be drawn from the surroundings to populate the town. 

Also he said somewhere that he would like to see uber channelers walking around in battles like sauron in the beginning of LOTR.  Also the negative to keep in mind with that is that if the channeler dies, game over, no spell of return, nothing.

That's why I've become interested in the idea of champions as alternate 'production points' for things like research. Especially for something like magic, there's all manner of precedents for great minds working with few or no material supports like libraries. A champion researcher posted to a mages' guild would boost their output, but she should still have a basic output of her even if you just let her hang in a cave and meditate for a season or three.

Some of the Just You to Start With talk is in Brad's journal A stragegy game that is also a world. I hadn't really paid attention, but that post does at least suggest that there will be no traditional settler unit at the start of the game (or maybe ever?).

Well, the second city will obviously result in greater military production as well as greater income to support a larger military.  In the LONG TERM, that will be the counter to Bob.  Also, you'll be able to send out scouts/raiders to harrass enemy caravans (Bob can't be in 2 places at once) while also fielding an army that is a threat to Bob.

In the short term, Bob can come to get you before you have time to build up your second city and make a mighty military....but Bob has to get by your Channeler first = dead Bob unless he can outmanuever you! 

Now, the enemy Channeler AND Bob could show up...but that Channeler will have a completely empty single city that is ripe for anyone else to take.

Hmmm, seems like there is a lot of potential for balance here.

By my understanding, the map generator will employ some sort of anti-suckage algorythm to prevent corners, islands, and other unpleasant places from becomeing start positions.