What we really need the most is probably an experienced modder to collect the low hanging fruit things and put them into a list of WHAT the issue is.

I haven't hard any problem making mods myself so I read posts like this and without knowing more think of it as nit-picking.  The map editor, for instance, is something I think is pretty awesome (a 3D transformable terrain map editor, very few games have this). You might not agree but I'd need to know specifics so I can see what can be done.

The object "insanity" thing strikes me as something that could be handled by a mod manager that the modding community could make. I see all the mods to FTL which is a lot less mod friendly and wonder if the problem we have here is an expectations management problem.

Personally, the single biggest modding problem I see is a lack of a scripthing language (like Python).  But that's not going to happen any time soon as there just isn't time/budget for that.

I agree that anything put in the documents directory should override any duplicate named objects in the base games directory. But that sort of problem could be worked around with a mod manager (which is what most games have in my experience and those are typically made by third parties).  

To answer the main question, I think modding in LH will be better than FE.  But the best way to get things done would be some consensus on a few bite sized things that  would have a lot of impact that I can then turn over to Derek to see if he can get fixed.  

havenfall I'm sure can do a better job of compiling a list than I can.  But I can list a few things.

1. the map maker.   Simply clicking on an object, and then clicking on the map doesn't place an object.  Things like starting locations, resources, etc.  Some things work easily and intuitively, others just don't.  I tried to play around with stamps, and couldn't figure out how to place a monster at the entrance of my terrain.   At that point I gave up. (after 2 hours of fidgeting)

2. Not all xml is handled equally.   for example, you cannot put a calculation in the experience point bonus that a city gives a unit.  But you can put a calculation in the bonuses a building gives trained units.

3.  The recent change to the tile yield calculations.   You can adjust the bonuses to tile yield, but you cannot adjust the new cap that was put in place, or the formula that is utilized to determine how many of each resources you receive.  I understand why the cap was added, but I don't understand why it was hard coded.

4.  the file priorities and overwriting.   It would be really really really awesome, if when we added an xml entry we could add "<overwrite>1</overwrite> to cause the engine to ignore all other entries that matched it.  So if I wanted my smithy to overwrite the current smithy entry, all I have to do is add that tag.

5.  access to more of the formulas that are used to determine things like combat outcomes.   I'm not certain why we can't have things like the damage calculation be an xml entry. 

6.  lastly, personally I would really like it if the xml for spellcasting allowed for me to add some form of casting time(overland), and add a maximum mana expenditure per turn (mom style), and to be able to adjust that casting time by whatever calculation I entered into the xml.

7.  another lastly, being able to edit the tech trees more completely.   Again, from the mod folder.  Ideally when modding xml, it would be best if it were possible to write *any* xml entry that is in the mod folder, and have an option for it to overwrite the default xml entry.   As it stands, most modders have to cut into the guts of the actual core xml files to accomplish what they want. ( I have not, but I refuse to write any mod that requires it.   I want mine to be simple to install).   


These are my comments from a modding newbie.   Havenfall I am sure can tell you how big or how not big these issues are, and add plenty of his own to the list.  

I don't think most of us are trying to nitpick.  We have grandiose plans for  what we would like to do with our mods.  When we delve into it, as a new modder, we are met with answer after answer of "that isn't possible" or "the engine doesn't do that for some reason, we don't know why".  I think most of these are not big deals to alter.

Lastly, I've noticed these forums don't have the same community representation from you folks at stardock as the other forums.   I suspect that is from personal interest, as I have seen first hand you and your staff contribute to thread after thread in other forums, usually during your off time.  I don't know how to resolve that one, short of keeping an eye out for future hires that have a sincere interest in the modding community.  (not to say you don't have an interest in it, but if the engine does something you don't like when you're writing a mod, I'd suspect you just edit the source in one of your private builds [which is AWESOME])

I hope you don't take any of this as negative.  I love what you have done with this game, I love the fact that you are endeavoring to support modders, and I love how you treat your community.   You asked for a list from a seasoned modder, I can only deliver one from a rookie modder.   I hope my feedback is helpful. 

Then don't.  

To set expectations: Assume that the modding won't improve at all. That way, if it does, hooray.

I said what has to be done.  We did that with "Name 5 things you'd like to see fixed in FE 1.3" and the consensus 5 things got addressed. 

The problem is that people will make an unpriortized lists of hundreds of things that they want, most of which aren't realistic. And yes, they get ignored because there's only so much time available. 

If the modding community could put together a VERY short list (like 5 things) they think would make a big difference but wouldn't require massive effort to implement, they're likely to get done.

And it has to be specific.

For example:

That's not specific enough.  The XML will never be "handled equally". That would be a massive undertaking. My suggestion would be to explain what you are looking to do so we can help accomodate that.

Let me give you my own personal requests:

1. Let the player choose MODS where it works as following:

* In the mods folder, each sub-directory that has an elementaldefs.xml would count as a mod and the user could pick. 

* Elementaldefs.xml should have an option to disable the following things in it:

a. The base city improvements (so only improvements in this directory will be seen)

b. The base player technologies (so only technologies in this directory will be able to be seen)

c. the base magic spells (...)

2. Any improvement/tech/gameitem that has a duplicate internal ID to what is in the base directory should be ovewritten by the mod.

3. The map editor needs to be able to load up tactical battle maps over and over without losing special tile modifiers (this is a bug0

4. The ability to create random map stamps should be spelled out to the player such that it explains in the dialog what the player does to create a map stamp.

--

That is what I mean by specific.  Now, in LH, scenarios are much easier to create because the problems I mentioned above had to be dealt with.  

Okay, I'll give more specific requests.   I think part of the problem with getting a 5 item list from the modding community is the wide variety of things we try to do here, whereas with anything else in the game,  everyone will likely run into the same issues. Thus a "popular vote" can get you a list of things the vast majority of the players would like to see get fixed.

For modding, the things you're likely to see me wanting are probably going to be very different than the things havenfall, or mpqfile want.  Here are the things I would like in the order I personally would like them.  I'd be happy to take a bunch of suggestions and then start a poll.

1. Move the hard cap and formula for the tile yield for cities to xml.  It would even be better if it could be set so we could add our own resources if we wanted and work those into the formula dynamically.

2. Implement some way of adding a calculation into an experience point bonus.   One of the things I would really like to do, is allow governors to give a per turn bonus to xp to units stationed in a city with him.   The best way to do this that I can think of while opening the most options for modders:  Allow units to alter the resources (and custome resources) of the cities they are stationed in, and allow calculations in the 

<ModType>StationedUnitStatBonus</ModType>
     <StrVal>UnitStat_Experience</StrVal>
            <Value></Value>

tag.

3.  Allow some way for modifications made in the mod directory to overwrite the core xml entries, weather by the method frogboy listed, or by adding an <overwrite>True</overwrite> tag to xml entries causing them to shut off the core entry.

4.  Fix existing bugs in the mappaker, and release some good youtube tutorials on how to use it.

5.  More tutorials Frogboy style.

I have also commonly seen requested the ability to modify player-made factions and sovereigns through in-game UI, but I see that as a huge programming task and basically unobtainable if you are looking for bite-sized fixes. It would be in my top 5 otherwise.

You can work around 6) by requiring a resource and having that resource produced locally by an improvement.

BTW Frogboy, you mentioned above that:

I don't suppose you'd like to share with us what problems have been "dealt with" in LH..?

Cheers.

Oh nice.  (DsRaider will be happy with that, sounds like what he needs for his scenario.)

Yep that same concept (more or less) for all mods would be great.

And what about being able to access global resources count from within cities? Unless it's already possible and I have missed something.

FB, how about changing a little bit of an attitude on your side?

You haven't delivered. That was advertised as the most moddable game ever. It isn't, and you ask everyone to accept the fact that this will not improve and if it does they should hooray. When I saw that thread I knew that Seanw3 left some time ago and lots of other initiatives die...

I read in this thread HF is already modding other game.

I thought - it's wake up call. Those are the names they put on their manual. Those are the leaders of the community, recognized for being open, helpful, creative.

I've witnessed numerous of their posts pointing at various things to improve, even some to prioritize the ideas.

What I've never seen from the SD side is any attempt to recognize the post, to acknowledge them with a basic 'read, considered' not to mention, copied on some stickied list of thigns to do with estimated time of arrival and possibly some community accepted feedback on what is most improtant thing to do now. Neither I've seen SD employee to follow up with questions, 'what do you mean', 'can you post an example' I did saw HF going out to help fellow modders, with ready code.

And you've just said to your champion, "then don't", that's a poor tactic for a sovereign in FE and equally poor thing to say by game author to his community. More you say that the modding community here and game one in overall is demanding, selfish, stubborn and requests unfeasible things. Yet you praise other communities. Have you cosnidered why people there behave other way than those here? I don't believe in people being different en masse. They differ in particulars and you're particularly different then other game authors.

By your own attitude you have qeunched so much enthusiasm for the game that I can't believe it.

Or what?

If you want to talk directly to me, you're going to have to put up with my various idiosyncrasies.

I really hope we can all dial it down a notch or two.  Stardock has gone so far above what any other publisher has done to make amends on this game, that it is something that people from all corners of the gaming community have commented positively on.  I cannot think of another developer or publisher where the CEO would actually respond to a forum post, even if it is with attitude.  While I agree that the attitude towards folks like Havenfall is counterproductive, it was for a moment a two way street.  I don't know how often frogboy visits the modding forum, so it is possible he is not aware of the simple fact that havenfall might as well be a free employee for stardock.

Lets focus on what we have now.   Frogboy talking to us, saying he will try to address some of our concerns, asking us for a list, and people like havenfall giving one more shot at giving constructive feedback that only he is really qualified to offer.  

I am pretty sure havenfall knows how much the entire modding community appreciates and needs him.   Without him, I highly suspect this forum would be dead. 



So... yea. there is the pat on the back to everyone involved.  Now can we underail this topic before it gets sidelined? 

The guy has ran the numbers, modders make up a very small percentage of total customers. This was mentioned months ago. I feel like his attitude is "I don't owe you guys squat." 

Instead of fixing modding, I think Brad should come to my house, take a black magic marker and scribble out all the stuff referring to how moddable the game is on the back of my collectors edition box. Then he should delete every post promising modding features and promising to improve modding. Finally, he should delete this sub forum. 

That would pretty much resolve the situation.

"We're going to have python."

"You'll be able to recreate Master of Magic. I'm in the process of creating such and such rogue-like."

"We're exposing everything to be tweaked through xml."

"My focus is turning towards modding once the game is released."

"I have that guy from Civ 5 working exclusively on improving modding."

"Care if I sticky this post? We are going to use it to improve modding." (1st)

"Why don't you guys make a post, we will use it to make improvements to modding." (2nd)

So frustrating. Every time I see a new promise, I get pulled back in thinking "This guy owns the company, if he says it is going to happen, it is going to happen, or at least an attempt will be made".

Bottom line is, at this point I don't care what you fix. Just quit promising things and getting my (our?) hopes up.