Tuidjy

Join Date 08/2010

+80

First impressions for .98's balance - a disaster

Every single thing I hate has been strengthened.

Soloing heroes are the most effective strategy - the overwhelming production nerf does not affect them.

Pioneer rush is a must - they're about the only thing a piss poor city can build in less than 10 turns, and with the increased resource development times, you need all the shitty cities you can settle.

Troops are simply out of reach. It takes 10+ turns to build a naked spearman in your starting city.

The research pace has been slowed down at least twice, if not more. The research I used to complete by turn 25 now takes me until 70+.

I have started 3 games so far, and they've been uniformly boring for the same reason - up to turn 70ish they have consisted of playing with my heroes and hitting [Turn] in the hope that something nice happens. Heroes were the one thing I believe needed nerfing, and they are the one thing that has escaped it.

Well, this is what Beta 5 will be about, I guess. Trying to get balance straightened out. I will plod through this mess to get my bearings for a while, and then I'll start a walkthrough that I will use for examples of screwy balance and defunged gameplay.

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Heavenfall

Join Date 07/2008

+441

How do you feel that the 25% exp nerf and removing the Potential traits for early heroes play into this?

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I all honesty, I had not noticed. Experience gain is not what makes heroes overpowered. I won the game on Ridiculous with a solo hero in the release where Xpt was really low and everyone was complaining. I think it was .914

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mqpiffle

Join Date 10/2010

+44

Can't please everyone I guess.

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The research pace has been slowed down at least twice, if not more. The research I used to complete by turn 25 now takes me until 70+.

Have you tried the game setup option that lets you increase the pace of research?

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Production nerf is great. Now there is more a hard choice what to build, and units are usefull indeed with more aggressive creatures (at least they where in my game on expert and dense. One AI was killed by them after very few turns even).

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Quoting NorsemanViking,

reply 6

Production nerf is great. Now there is more a hard choice what to build

No, there is no hard choice what to build. The right choice is the same as before - build nothing, use your heroes. I am not the only one who has repeatedly won the game on Insane without settling a city.

Quoting NorsemanViking,

reply 6

units are usefull indeed with more aggressive creatures

Useful how? By the time I can build an unit, my heroes have cleared everything that unit has a snowball chance in Hell to even scratch.

Quoting NorsemanViking,

reply 6

One AI was killed by them after very few turns even

Doesn't this lend weight to the argument that the production nerf is too harsh, if anything? Not that it was not happening before. I have seen AIs not able to settle anywhere close, and then getting killed by a lair.

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Tuidjy, try playing one of the standard sovs/factions on a map with standard resources. Or if you really want to play customized, choose some traits that aren't automatic insane ridiculous wins. I don't think SD will be as sympathetic to someone playing highly unique game setup choices.

P.S. Don't make me quote Brad here... "Maybe this game just isn't ... oh nevermind."

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I do agree that heroes have it a little bit too easy, but the build times I think are OK. If heroes needed a little bit more help to be efficient on leveling up, then the balance would be there. The sollution is not to make things cheaper to build. That would make the game less strategical. A thypical case of creating new problems with the wrong sollution. If it almost doesent mather what order you build things in because you have it in a few turns anyways the game would suffer alot. I'm glad it don't take just 3 turns anymore to build a farm, mine or shrine in an early city.

The reason I need units now isnt that my heroes armies need 'em too badly, but to prevent my cities to be killed by monsters when my heroes are out far away. It's limited how many heroes I can get. I have to keep them in armies to kill the more serious monsters, so they definatly can't be everywhere at all times.

But I play with dense monsters on rather high difficulty, so that might impact it of course. I love how monsters felt more dangerous in my playtrough tonight.

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Quoting Trojasmic,

reply 8

Tuidjy, try playing one of the standard sovs/factions on a map with standard resources. Or if you really want to play customized, choose some traits that aren't automatic insane ridiculous wins.

I've won on the highest (at the time) difficulties with Relias, Irane, and Markin, without even going for the Master Quest. Irane's was a solo run raze fest (no cities on the map at the end, I called it the Cultural revolution) Markin had a single city, which is harder lately, but was perfectly satisfying when population actually mattered, and a well developed city actually meant something. Relias was the most recent - on .952 and won by alliance victory (once the Empires were gone)

Most races have 'I win' abilities (Gilden does not, and Procepinee's been badly nerfed) The AI just does not know how to use them.

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I don't understand how you could win the game with no cities at all. I play the game on challenging and can't imagine winning the game with only 2 heroes there. I think you need to explain your strategy a bit so we can understand what you're doing that's breaking the game.

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I don't even think the guy is talking about the new version.

He keeps bringing up older versions and he won the game 4 or 5 times already since the newest version came out>> Bullshit.

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It's easy to call someone a liar on the internet, isn't it, brave BlackRainZ? I have never said that I have won the game in .98. Maybe you should work on your reading comprehension. I am very careful to say what versions my games have been in. Given that the latest version nerfs everything but heroes, I am pretty confident in saying that I can still win the game without cities.

How to win without cities? There is only one way right now - Master Quest. Before, you could do it by razing enemy cities, but now you cannot, because you have to hold them for too long.

As for winning with heroes only, you could check some of my three playthroughs: .913, .915, and .952. I do not think I have build even one unit except pioneers in any of them. Of course, they are all of earlier versions, and the latest does not get all the way to victory. It still has multiple level 20+ heroes by turn 60.

The strategy for powerful heroes on any difficulty is: buffs, especially regeneration, high initiative, mobility. On high difficulties, before level 8-10, you may need to kite because the enemies get three to five times the hps, but once a hero is level 15 or so, nothing in the game can touch him, let alone take him down.

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Picking up the pace also cuts the number of turns from 1000 to 500

I'm currently doing fairly slow build outs - I pick oppenents that tend not to colonize too much

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How much kiting and out manuvwring of the enemy do you do? I wonder if your strategies would work if there was a turn limit on battles

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Quoting Tuidjy,

reply 13

But when you title a thread, "First impressions for .98's balance - a disaster," I suppose I'm not the only one who thinks "impressions" refers to impressions acquired through repeated playing. And as I noted above when you complained about the slowed pace of research, there's a new setup option in .098, Pacing, that lets you speed that up. This doesn't invalidate any criticisms you have, but I would suggest your arguments would be stronger if you play .098 for a while, first, using a wide range of setup options on a large map.

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Quoting Glazunov1,

reply 16

This doesn't invalidate any criticisms you have, but I would suggest your arguments would be stronger if you play .098 for a while, first, using a wide range of setup options on a large map.

I would strongly disagree with that. Balancing discussions should focus on the default settings (excluding difficulty) otherwise it's relatively impossible to compare.

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> I suppose I'm not the only one who thinks "impressions" refers to impressions acquired through repeated playing

Which is why I took three games to about turn 100 before posting. By turn 100, I would have usually decided the game in the previous versions. I consider myself able to extrapolate well enough from 100 turns, the change log, and my previous experiences of the game. A bit better than this, at least...

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Quoting Tuidjy,

reply 18

> I suppose I'm not the only one who thinks "impressions" refers to impressions acquired through repeated playing

Which is why I took three games to about turn 100 before posting. By turn 100, I would have usually decided the game in the previous versions. I consider myself able to extrapolate well enough from 100 turns, the change log, and my previous experiences of the game. A bit better than this, at least...

Tuidjy

Stop and smell the roses for a bit. 3 games of 100 turns? The newer version has been out for 4 hours or something. I'm being nice, but inside the parenthesis will be what you dont want to hear, and no one wants to say (chill the f out).

Personally I like it a lot. Maybe you should stop and make a city or something. Make some people happy. Build a college and teach them all of your knowledge.

p.s. thanks for making me feel better about all the half-jack-a$$ comments I've made. You win.

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Quoting Glazunov1,

reply 5

Production nerf is great. Now there is more a hard choice what to build

Agree completely. I am much less cavalier about sacrificing spearmen and settlers. The pacing change also nixes the settler spam, and actually gives you time to explore the world early on with your sov and heroes. More in keeping w/ lore and theme of game.

Regarding the other stuff (not building cities/units, owning the game after 100 turns, etc), no comment. If you're that good, you're just that good.

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So far, I've played for about 2 hours or so, and while they notably nerfed production, I can't see much of a difference as far as research goes. Maybe it takes an extra turn at first, but right now, even with lots of monsters crowding around, I'm still able to found about a half-dozen cities in less than 50 turns. I actually like the slower game pace, unlike the OP: it gives the game a reason to have a thousand-turn limit. I might look into fast research pace, but TBH I prefer slower games, with lots of neutral monsters to slay and wildlands to clear. The new options give me just what I want, and I'm happy.

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Quoting Napean,

reply 20

Quoting Glazunov1,
reply 5
Production nerf is great. Now there is more a hard choice what to build

Agree completely. I am much less cavalier about sacrificing spearmen and settlers. snip If you're that good, you're just that good.

Talk about amazingly good.

Um when were you ever 'cavalier' about wasting spearman?

Perhaps you played a very early beta? In my game it takes ages to research spears and some pants for him. Then of course you get to make like 1 every 5 turns or something amazing. Probably worse since you went straight to spears you wont have actually done any civic tech or buildings to help out.

Which wouldn't be that big a deal I suppose if my hero wasnt doing(as in killing and looting) something every other turn (or more). What is left for your spearman to throw his life away on so cheaply once your heros are done? Some drake thing, a big stack of trolls? A lvl nothing spearman isnt going to do what a fully kitted out horse riding enchanted hero counldnt do.

As to choices . . . choice was make a troop who is not as good or effective as hero or really needed OR make a building with X amount of production

With nerf I have same choice but with only 80 percent of X. I have much less choice because I have much less to waste (as if i ever had any to waste but whatever).

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Quoting NorsemanViking,

reply 6

Production nerf is great.

It's great for a slow game, but it makes heroes even more overpowered. Imagine Sauron walking all by himself to Minas Tirith, smashing a few soldiers along the way - how underwhelming

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While I wouldn't be as extreme as to say 0.980 has been a 'disaster', I do agree with Tuidjy in ALL his points. 0.980 has been a step backwards in production with the exceptions of AI and Monster strength.

If I could have the city building/empire expansion from 0.951 (0.952 was too fast) and the AI and monster threat from 0.980, this game would be awesome!!!'

Comments in how I felt about the game:

Early game build queue times take WAY too long now
Research of early game techs take too long now
Pioneer spam is even more necessary, but even harder to do, thus strangling all other queue options.
Early game resource improvements can't be built anymore. There is no time to queue them.
No queue time available to build troops early game.

See the pattern.

The game isn't bad if you want to spend the first 100 turns building only a few things. That's alot of 'end turn' actions.

IMO, it's now VERY boring in the early game.

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AlLanMandragoran

Join Date 09/2010

+63

I started one up last night. Insane world difficulty, dialed back the faction AI to expert. Struggling to clear the mobs around my area and having to make some hard choices. For me at least, thumbs up. With that said haven't approached anywhere near midgame yet. I'm optimistic. Love the fonts, etc. Looks way more polished.

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Quoting leroy105,

reply 22

Quoting Napean, reply 20

Quoting Glazunov1,
reply 5
Production nerf is great. Now there is more a hard choice what to build

Agree completely. I am much less cavalier about sacrificing spearmen and settlers. snip If you're that good, you're just that good.

Talk about amazingly good.

Um when were you ever 'cavalier' about wasting spearman?

Perhaps you played a very early beta? In my game it takes ages to research spears and some pants for him. Then of course you get to make like 1 every 5 turns or something amazing. Probably worse since you went straight to spears you wont have actually done any civic tech or buildings to help out.

Which wouldn't be that big a deal I suppose if my hero wasnt doing(as in killing and looting) something every other turn (or more). What is left for your spearman to throw his life away on so cheaply once your heros are done? Some drake thing, a big stack of trolls? A lvl nothing spearman isnt going to do what a fully kitted out horse riding enchanted hero counldnt do.

As to choices . . . choice was make a troop who is not as good or effective as hero or really needed OR make a building with X amount of production

With nerf I have same choice but with only 80 percent of X. I have much less choice because I have much less to waste (as if i ever had any to waste but whatever).

Guys, please get your quotes correct. I never said a word about the nerfing of production, or about sacrificing anything. Those are two other people whose remarks are conflated here.

Since this forum's software is abominable, Napean, you should check to see whether the person you're responding to really said what you claim they said. I'd barely trust this board with a single quoted passage, much less a double- or triple-tiered thing that's hopeless due to poor formatting and voice distinction.

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