Frogboy Frogboy

The new magical order

▼

The new magical order

from JoeUser Forums

As mentioned last week on November 1st I’ll be resuming my traditional position as Executive Producer and lead designer (the position I held on our previous games) so that someone who can dedicate their full attention to Elemental can succeed me. 

My successor, Kael (Derek Paxton), is well known in the Civilization community for Fall from Heaven, a rich, fantasy-based mod.  If anyone is qualified to take over the reigns of Elemental, it’s him.

In addition, we recently brought on something we haven’t previously done, an Associate Producer. This is something we should have done on Elemental but we were still structured like we were when our games were just a half dozen people projects.  Toby Sarnelle was recently added to the Elemental project to work with Kael.  They shall bring order to the chaos. :)

I want to emphasize that I’m not going anywhere. I’ll still be part of the project and posting plenty but my journals will increasingly be about the part of the game I’ll be involved in most – the computer AI.   For v1.1, I’ve started handing the producing efforts to Toby in preparation for Kael’s arrival on November 1.

So how does game design differ from being a producer?  Let me give you a few examples from v1.1’s work.

The Design:

v1.1 technology tree has a cavalry sub-tree now.  The design calls for the new technologies to give new abilities to your existing cavalry units such as “Charge” and “Evade” (to evade arrows).

Producing:

v1.1 engine doesn’t support adding abilities to existing units. Alternative proposal: Those techs provide new types of mounts: (e.g. War Horse) that do have these abilities.

The Compromise

The Executive Producer thus has to make the call as to whether that is an acceptable workaround or if they are willing to increase the budget and due date for the release in order to extend the engine to support that.

Those are the kinds of calls that have to be made all the time in game development.  The challenge is making the right judgment call on when to implement the work around and when to spend the time/money to update the engine.  On a new game, this can be perilous (as we have already seen) because you make the wrong call on something and you can cripple the entire game experience.  This is why sequels tend to be better because you already have a feeling for what game mechanics will work and which ones won’t.

It’s also why the Designer and the Producer are generally not the same person. Checks and balances.  One of my funnest experiences (on development) was with Demigod.  On that project, I was the Executive Producer, Mike Marr (GPG) was the designer and Bartosz Kijanka (GPG) was the producer.  One of the reasons why Demigod is such a good game was because of how effectively the 3 of us were able to work together.

The importance of the triumvirate

These days, it seems like everyone wants to be a “game designer”. People ask me what does it take to be a game designer? The answer is you had better have a good handle on how games are actually made.  Anyone can sit down and whip up a 300 page design document outlining their ultimate sci-fi vs. fantasy real time strategy/RPG/FPS game. What makes someone a good designer is how well they can design something that can actually be made profitably: Time, Scope, Budget.  So for starters, make sure you know how to program. Have you ever made your own game? Have you ever made a substantial mod? These are important basic skills to get started.  Hence, people who want to be game designers, IMO, should get a degree in computer science or some other technical field – not “game design”.

Similarly, if you want to be a Game Producer, the key skills here are project management. Can you make sure your artists, developers, balancers, etc. are all moving according to schedule? It’s like juggling. :)

In my case, I’m a good but not great game designer. I’m a good but not great Game Producer. My “special” skill is that I’m good (but not great) across the breadth of game creation.  This is an important skill if you want to start your own game studio but can be detrimental once it becomes successful because you need to begin stepping back to replace “good” with “great” at the earliest opportunity and that can be hard to do.

Anyway…

I don’t really have a particular point I’m trying to make in this rambling journal other than to give those of you who are interested in the game industry a glimpse of what things are like.

127,510 views 64 replies
Reply #26 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Tasunke, reply 23
as far as I can tell, Warhorses could still give extra HP and armor ... (after the engine is made better) ... in lieu of no longer being needed to "unlock" the new abilities.

But yea, my vote is for getting it (the way you want it) the first time.
End of Tasunke's quote

We'll be selling the armor for horses as a separate $9.95 purchase so we can't really combine the horse AND the armor.

+1 Loading…
Reply #27 from Elemental Forums Top

"These days, it seems like everyone wants to be a “game designer”."

I am fairly confident that this will be taken amiss but I do think that it is important to post and, with any luck, it will remain posted and not start some sort of flame war. That said, it is not my intention to start a flame war but to post a very concise and bold point that has become more and more the case in recent years.
End of quote

I think, more accurately, is that too many people think that they know what it takes to be a game designer.

CursorFX - Customize your Windows cursor
Reply #28 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 26

We'll be selling the armor for horses as a separate $9.95 purchase so we can't really combine the horse AND the armor.
End of Frogboy's quote

Good joke, though I loved Oblivion and you can damn well be sure I bought armor for my horse.

Also, new abilities on cavalry sound cool no matter how they end up being implemented, looking forward to 1.1!

Reply #29 from Elemental Forums Top

We'll be selling the armor for horses as a separate $9.95 purchase so we can't really combine the horse AND the armor.
End of quote

Lolwut?

Reply #31 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting db0, reply 29

Lolwut?
End of db0's quote

Oblivion had a horse armor pack available as DLC that cost $2.95, that's the joke :)

*tries to head off any angry diatribes*

Reply #32 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting AndonSage, reply 31



Quoting db0,
reply 29

Lolwut?



Oblivion had a horse armor pack available as DLC that cost $2.95, that's the joke

*tries to head off any angry diatribes*
End of AndonSage's quote

Oh yeah...I LOVE the DLC system. 3 dollars for a new horse armor! IT'S A MUST HAVE! LET ME HAVE IIIIIIIIT! :rofl:

Reply #33 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 26



Quoting Tasunke,
reply 23
as far as I can tell, Warhorses could still give extra HP and armor ... (after the engine is made better) ... in lieu of no longer being needed to "unlock" the new abilities.

But yea, my vote is for getting it (the way you want it) the first time.


We'll be selling the armor for horses as a separate $9.95 purchase so we can't really combine the horse AND the armor.
End of Frogboy's quote

If we prepurchase will we get the sparkly version with wings?

Reply #34 from Elemental Forums Top

Well you can get a premium account that makes unicorns available and grants 10% more health to all creature for 12 bucks the month. Naturally there are special premium account items too. :| Browser games heh.

 

Well if someone wants to do a PC game s/he needs at least to understand 2 things: "Programming" and "Gaming". You can be proficient at ais and graphics etc. but if you are not so good at the gaming part (game theory etc.) you can get a good engine but essentially the game is bad (Spoken in general Brad did his best i think considering the circumstances). Also if you do story-driven rpgs you need a very competent writer or a well tuned team of writers which knows the tricks of good storytelling. Since someone will mention it anyway (i am looking at you cruxador and Tormy) games like df are a different case.

Reply #35 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting larienna, reply 25
if you want to be a "VIDEO game designer" you need computer programming skills

But for example, if you want to be a "board game designer" you do not need programming skills.

Sorry but It frustrate me so much when people asume that "Game Design" = "Video game Design"

Yes there are other types of games than video games that still exist (board games and sports are some example). In fact, video games are the last kind of game to appear in human history.
End of larienna's quote

 

Look at David Sirlin for that.  (guy very similar to Brad in style, but on a smaller scale)  He did do work with 2 games for Capcom, but now does card games mostly.  sirlin.net is a good site for game design discussion.

 

As for the horses, having different varieites of horses, deterrmined by stable improvements , would be nice.  Racer horses for light cavalry (faster but suffer more penalties when carrying armored troops), warhorses that don't suffer armor penalty.

 

Encumberance for armor needs to be an added stat I think.  Heavy armor should have some negative effects, mainly for mounted units and archery units.

 

 

 

 

Reply #36 from Elemental Forums Top

brad, my suggestion is to do the engine improvements FIRST, then add extra assets, and how about warcats :pout: ?

as you already have bears,dogs(wargs) and horses.

harpo

 

Reply #37 from Elemental Forums Top

Yep some more low and mid level variance would be nice. Killing spiders all the time is ... heck iirc you got already a demonic spider entry on tv-tropes.

Reply #38 from Elemental Forums Top

Wow Good journal read. Its gotta be tough to hand over the reigns on your baby! As long as you are still around though I'm sure the core idea of elemental will remain the same and unchanged! Can't wait to see whats in store.

Reply #39 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting StormbringerGT, reply 38
Wow Good journal read. Its gotta be tough to hand over the reigns on your baby! As long as you are still around though I'm sure the core idea of elemental will remain the same and unchanged! Can't wait to see whats in store.
End of StormbringerGT's quote

Actually quite the opposite. I didn't want the reigns in the first place.  For the first 3 years of the game's development I was hands off. I only took the reigns this Spring when it became clear that I needed to be more hands on.  I'm very excited to work with Derek and pass the reigns onto him.

 

 

 

Reply #40 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting markieness, reply 33

Quoting Frogboy, reply 26


Quoting Tasunke,
reply 23
as far as I can tell, Warhorses could still give extra HP and armor ... (after the engine is made better) ... in lieu of no longer being needed to "unlock" the new abilities.

But yea, my vote is for getting it (the way you want it) the first time.


We'll be selling the armor for horses as a separate $9.95 purchase so we can't really combine the horse AND the armor.


If we prepurchase will we get the sparkly version with wings?
End of markieness's quote

I think you know the answer to that.  All armor effects will be sold separately. In the future, we may provide a bundle with a 10% discount off the combined price.

(now I suspect some of you totally get why I get into trouble on forums and in the media with what I write online <g>).

Reply #41 from Elemental Forums Top

If we prepurchase will we get the sparkly version with wings?
End of quote

No wings, but it will* get you a fishbowl space helmet.

 

*it won't.

Reply #42 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 26
We'll be selling the armor for horses as a separate $9.95 purchase so we can't really combine the horse AND the armor.
End of Frogboy's quote

That's not really a new idea.  In Everquest you can buy warhorses (with their armor being the only difference to other horses there) with "marketplace points". Since you buy those points with real cash, yeah - you buy horse armor for cash. =P

Reply #43 from Elemental Forums Top

We know it's not new, that's what makes it a joke.  The first DLC for Oblivion, the game that kind of what made DLC what it is today, sold that shitty horse armor and it was quite the uproar.  Oh, memories...can't believe I bought that shit...

Reply #44 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 39

Quoting StormbringerGT, reply 38Wow Good journal read. Its gotta be tough to hand over the reigns on your baby! As long as you are still around though I'm sure the core idea of elemental will remain the same and unchanged! Can't wait to see whats in store.

Actually quite the opposite. I didn't want the reigns in the first place.  For the first 3 years of the game's development I was hands off. I only took the reigns this Spring when it became clear that I needed to be more hands on.  I'm very excited to work with Derek and pass the reigns onto him.

 

 

 
End of Frogboy's quote

Well then I thank you for what you've done so far! Without you and you team I wouldn't have Elemental to play today!

Reply #45 from Elemental Forums Top

You have no idea how long I have pondered and questioned what a "game designer" and, more importantly, what a "game producer" is. So, basically, a game producer is the business management executive? You've opened my eyes but now I'm just more curious.

Anyways, good journal.

Reply #46 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting larienna, reply 25
if you want to be a "VIDEO game designer" you need computer programming skills

But for example, if you want to be a "board game designer" you do not need programming skills.

Sorry but It frustrate me so much when people asume that "Game Design" = "Video game Design"

Yes there are other types of games than video games that still exist (board games and sports are some example). In fact, video games are the last kind of game to appear in human history.
End of larienna's quote

 

I don't wanna be "that guy" but..., and I'm not a racist but..., and not to be pedantically anal but..., and I'm not trying to start a flame war but...

Wait, what was I gonna say?

Oh yeah, just that since this is the forum for the video game Elemental, and this is the development journal section of the forum, and the original post is about what goes on in video game production, it is not unreasonable to skip the 'Video' qualifier when talking about video game design here.

If you were programming, you might consider it similar to using a statement like:

With Video

  .GameDesign = "Interesting"

  '..... more statements

End With

 

And now for the disclaimer.

1.  I assume that your peeve does not apply only to this type of forum.

2.  I assume that you are already fine with referring to game design in a video game forum without using the word 'video'.

3.  I assume that neither you or anyone else really needed to be told any of this.

:grin:

 

So why did I post this probably needless comment? Well boredom mostly, and because I can be annoying at times. I'm also hungry but can't go and get my noodles because I have to wait for a couple of customers to come pick up their stuff.

Reply #47 from Elemental Forums Top

Personally, I'd prefer to wait for the engine to be modified to accommodate the Calvary upgrades.

I think it's the wisest course of action, even if the patch is delayed for awhile.

 

Reply #48 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting James009D, reply 45
You have no idea how long I have pondered and questioned what a "game designer" and, more importantly, what a "game producer" is. So, basically, a game producer is the business management executive? You've opened my eyes but now I'm just more curious.

Anyways, good journal.
End of James009D's quote

It really depends on the company and really even then it depends on the project.  In my experience, the Designer sets up the broad strokes, the Producer is the one who makes it happen.  

A good Producer is a pre-requisite for a good game. And a good Producer is heavily involved in the design.

At Stardock, we have the term "Lead Designer" which sets out the broad strokes of what the game is. The lead designer sketches out the basic mechanics and general rule sets.  The Producer is the one who makes it really come to light.

At other companies, the Designer is all powerful and the Producer merely carries out their vision.  Since I've never considered myself a real "game designer" the position of Lead Designer (which has been my role) has had a lot less power than it might have at another studio and instead the team and the Producer flesh out the concept.  My "power" comes from the role of Executive Producer since that's the part that sets budget and manages the product (as opposed to project).

Anyway, the thing to take away from this is that every studio has different ways of doing things.  Since we're historically an engineering-driven company, we have a tendency to put more power into the hands of those actually doing the coding.   

The downside to our system, which is something we're addressing, is that it leads to designs that are often soulless or generic.

On a personal level, my long-term objective is to be neither the designer nor the producer on any of our games.  Rather, I would be the executive producer (the guy making the overall requirements -- i.e. we're making a PC, turn-based, strategy game set in a fantasy world and you have 36 mnoths and $3 million to do it and I'll work with you on design and write the AI.

 

Reply #49 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 48

Quoting James009D, reply 45You have no idea how long I have pondered and questioned what a "game designer" and, more importantly, what a "game producer" is. So, basically, a game producer is the business management executive? You've opened my eyes but now I'm just more curious.

Anyways, good journal.
It really depends on the company and really even then it depends on the project.  In my experience, the Designer sets up the broad strokes, the Producer is the one who makes it happen.  

A good Producer is a pre-requisite for a good game. And a good Producer is heavily involved in the design.

At Stardock, we have the term "Lead Designer" which sets out the broad strokes of what the game is. The lead designer sketches out the basic mechanics and general rule sets.  The Producer is the one who makes it really come to light.

At other companies, the Designer is all powerful and the Producer merely carries out their vision.  Since I've never considered myself a real "game designer" the position of Lead Designer (which has been my role) has had a lot less power than it might have at another studio and instead the team and the Producer flesh out the concept.  My "power" comes from the role of Executive Producer since that's the part that sets budget and manages the product (as opposed to project).

Anyway, the thing to take away from this is that every studio has different ways of doing things.  Since we're historically an engineering-driven company, we have a tendency to put more power into the hands of those actually doing the coding.   

The downside to our system, which is something we're addressing, is that it leads to designs that are often soulless or generic.

On a personal level, my long-term objective is to be neither the designer nor the producer on any of our games.  Rather, I would be the executive producer (the guy making the overall requirements -- i.e. we're making a PC, turn-based, strategy game set in a fantasy world and you have 36 mnoths and $3 million to do it and I'll work with you on design and write the AI.

 
End of Frogboy's quote

 

Good insight right there.  SO, will have you different production teams? or will you stick to one game project at a time?

Reply #50 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Cruxador, reply 7




quoting post
The Design:
v1.1 technology tree has a cavalry sub-tree now.  The design calls for the new technologies to give new abilities to your existing cavalry units such as “Charge” and “Evade” (to evade arrows).
YES!
Producing:
v1.1 engine doesn’t support adding abilities to existing units. Alternative proposal: Those techs provide new types of mounts: (e.g. War Horse) that do have these abilities.Well, that sounds acceptable in this instance. In some cases, it's better from a simulationist perspective. But it somewhat limits the potential of the cavalry tree to branch. And this weakness of the engine seems like something that ought to be nipped in the bud early if possible; that's a capability that could be valuable for lots of things. And requiring new equipment all the time is also liable to clutter the interface

The Compromise
The Executive Producer thus has to make the call as to whether that is an acceptable workaround or if they are willing to increase the budget and due date for the release in order to extend the engine to support that.

So... what's the compromise in this case?

End of Cruxador's quote

 

1.1 time of arrival will be pushed back and so will expansions.