Random, playable maps are not an either/or thing. It's an expected feature that isn't there. People have every right to complain about it.

I haven't had time to mess around much, but from Frogboy's posts it seems like the maps are only pseudo-random, such that you'd end up with the same continents and such eventually, but the goodie huts/resources/etc are randomized within them? Better than nothing, but then we need at least 40-50 different seeds for these kinds of maps - they do need to be geographically different to be enjoyable. Same geography but different positions for "stuff" doesn't really compare.

+1

Overall, randomness >> balance.

Or better put, map randomness is essential, balance is not (MoM wasn't very balanced, but this didn't hurt its replayability factor - actually it may have augmented it). For the same reason I'd like to have a random choice for the opponents (I like to discover them as I play!!). But maybe it's in and I just missed it.

Looks like I will be deleting those seeds too, but not until I'm more familiar with the game mechanics (I'm still going through the very basics )

Ok, so to get back on topic for a minute, for now we CAN get random maps ??  (by moving the seeds folder?)

By the way, Yes they should have put fully random map options into the initial release (if you don't like them or complain of unbalancing, don't use the option.. SIMPLE.. but don't take away the option from the rest of us that do) but for now, is it really that hard for people to move a directory ?!

So, in short, correct me if I am wrong:

YES there are fully random maps IF you go through 10 secs worth of effort to move the SEEDS folder.. correct?

(And to repeat, yes I know we shouldn't have to do this, but don't get up in arms about the complete inability to get random maps because it is there)

I'm sure they will patch with a 'semi-balanced random map generator' at some point.

Agreed, Brad always stated the focus for the game is on singleplayer. In singleplayer balance isn't such a great issue. So give us the random maps for singleplayer and if need be use the current system only for multiplayer.

I agree there needs to be randomized maps that work well as far as resource balance.

Stop being a fanboy and let people criticize a game and offer suggestions.

There's balance, and then there's balance. Having resources be a bit imbalanced is one thing. Having to wander 50 turns before finding a place suitable for a first city is another, and the second one is simply not going to make for a fun game.

The second case is the one that the map scripts need to be able to prevent.

I agree.  Perfect balance is fine and necessary for multiplayer.  But for single player sandbox I want complete randomness and exploration.

Yes, you are missing something. A lot of people are learning this game from the ground up.  It is highly unlikely that a game with this big of a learning curve will reward new players with a 2 day game out of the gate.  Slow starts, incorrect build order, learning new things...  And so on and so on.  People will be be starting new games very frequently.

Well, I didn't say, make the maps imbalanced. I just said for multiplayer I understand the need for truly balanced maps but for singleplayer there is a certain need for balance but surely a need for randomness too. Civ IV is an excellent example of how this can be done.

So how good are the mod tools?  Could anyone open them up and make some decent maps?  I'm tempted to buy the game and have a go at making maps.

Can you make map scripts like in Civ 4?  Or at very least modify whatever is generating maps by default?  Do we have any options other than just deleting the pre-set seeds and getting the resulting horrible maps?

If there is a ranking system for maps and you could select them from a web page and later automatically import them into your game with a click of a button, I wouldn't mind that option. 

I'll rant a little too.

Stardock should open the map generation to modders. Firaxis did it with Civ IV. Hell, they even hired someone (Sirian) who knew what map generation ment to get it right.

Apparently, the map generation has been 'toned down' because it was slow, and because the random fractal maps are not balanced.

Creating a map isn't slow if you do it right. Sorry Stardock, but your maps don't have more on them than those of CivIV so if generating them is slow, it's a problem with your generation algorithm, and you should open it so people who know better can do it. When Brad keeps talking about fractal maps, it shows he doesn't realise that there are fast ways to make random non fractal maps which, by construction, are more balanced than a pure random stuff. Beautifying the area next to the players' start location is something that's perfectly workable and fixes the worst (but not all) baalance problems.

One thing I started doing during the beta was post a small summary of the map format. Unfortunately we don't know it fully, and the beta forum is closed so my work is lost, but if the specifications of the map files were given, or if we retro-engineer them, it would be possible to make an external random map generator. In python, lua, C, java, or whatever. Just port your favorite Civ IV map script into Elemental. You'd have to skip the rivers or alter them because Elemental seems to do them 'in square' while Civ has them 'in between'. But then I haven't seen a river on an Elemental random map for a while.

If that's the case, then the entire world should be randomly generated and then a pocket of the world created for each civilization's starting city.  Fixed resources for each starting city is fine with me, but leave everything else random.

I would imagine we can copy the seeds and move them into an archive folder, then delete them from the EWOM folder and see how things go?  I assume if we didn't like the result we could copy the seeds back and restore the game to its original package?

IIRC, weren't they working on an issue with rivers?

Because the maps and starting locations are randomized to some extent, just not to an extent that some people prefer.

Although I do hope that Stardock releases a few dozen new map seeds over the coming months.  I don't much care for the earlier "Fix it with the mod tools" response.

Edit: Frogboy has said that "Lots of new Seed maps" will be included in the Day 0 patch (announcement here).

Its pretty simple to get completely random maps, perhaps it should have been an option to begin with but at least you can do it. 

The balance isn't even very good even with the current state of it not being random at all. Starting positions have wildly different quality in terms of resources, which the game was designed to have be as important as possible. Most games I start out next to a field and one or two other things. Recently I had a game where I started out within close proximity to a field, two lost libraries, an earth shard, a fire shard, a gold mine, an iron mine, a stone quarry, and an old growth forest. I would also prioritize balance over randomization, but this way has neither thanks to the single most important aspect of the game being randomized.

Hey, Guys:

"Lots of new Seed maps"

https://forums.elementalgame.com/391533

I got to say I feel a bit mislead with the lack or randomized map shapes. This was the motivating factor in me buying Elemental and I am not happy about it.

Seeds don't cut it unless they are releasing enough seeds that I never feel like I'm playing the same map shape.

Civ IV has a way to allow you to have random maps AND it works in multiplayer. Never played a single game where any player couldn't find a suitable place to drop a city within 1-2 turns. LordTheRon, you are just completely wrong on MP. There is no reason why MP should be shafted with the current system being described here.

Lots of new seed maps is still not a good answer. Ability to create random maps would be better. I've played hundreds if not thousands of civ games. If I play 10 elemental games, and if they produce 100 seeds (right now it's less than 10 per map size), the probability of hitting a map twice is around 40%. for 20 or 30 games, it's going to be too big to be acceptable. With a game like Civ IV, the number of seeds is around the billion, so the likelihood is so near zero that there's no comparison.

It's worth noting that civ doesn't let you see resources you haven't researched, so right off the start you're mainly just looking for a nice spot with good food and/or shield producing tiles (which are very common since it's just based on terrain type).