Todd_Hawks Todd_Hawks

No Random Map (was: "This is horrible!")

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No Random Map (was: "This is horrible!")

from Elemental Forums

What is the point of a fantasy strategy game with a heavy portion of exploring and adventuring when there are evidently no random maps?

It took me only 4 tries to get a duplicate map. Same shape, same position of the woods, the mountains and even the starting locations (these were shuffled around, though). Even if the resources are randomized, this is definitely not what I call a randomized map!

I have to admit, I am a very astonished. The most important thing you need for a replayable strategy game... and you leave it out. if I had known this, I never, ever would have bought the game. It may not be easy to implement, but other companies did it succesfully, so please change it to truly random maps. After all, you said that you wanted people to play this game in 10 years from now, and this is not going to happen without them.

 

elemental
65,716 views 130 replies
Reply #101 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Stuie_acs, reply 97

Quoting Todd Hawks, reply 96


Quoting Stuie_acs,
reply 95

LDiCesare is the author of what is still my favorite map script for Civ 4.  If anyone gets it, I think he does.


Which map script is that? I see myself playing some more Civ 4 until Elemental is in a playable state (and let's be honest: Civ V probably will need a few patches as well) and am always intererested in good map scripts.

He wrote the "Tectonics" script.  It's actually included with the game at this point (since BTS or one of the Warlords patches - forget which).
End of Stuie_acs's quote

Yeah if this dude wrote a script thats included in Civ 4 then you know he's the business.

Reply #102 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Stargrazer, reply 98

Quoting Todd Hawks, reply 86Just for your information: The patch 1.01 brought 4 new large and 5 new medium maps. bringing the total to 6 and 9, respectively.
To put things into perspective, this means that the probability of getting at least one repeated map (land mass layout) when playing n games on large maps is:

 

n:   prob

2:   16.7%

3:   44.4%

4:   72.2%

5:   90.7%

6:   98.5%

7:   100%
End of Stargrazer's quote

I know. I only mentioned it because I am disappointed that "Lots of new seed maps (particularly for medium and large)" translates to 9 maps, and those were only medium and large.

And like I said, no amount of maps will replace random maps (well, ok, maybe a few thousand maps each of any conceivable shape/continental distribution/size/...).

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Reply #103 from Elemental Forums Top

Just FYI, clicking "load" and selecting the top map when clicking new game, is quite the amusement.

You get to play the campaign map!

Reply #104 from Elemental Forums Top

Good heavens...  :O

 

Yes, there was a thread about this under 'support', but it got locked. So let me say here: ladies and gentlemen, I am shocked! I really am! I don't care about map seeds. I don't care about pre-defined continent shapes. I want randomly generated maps!

Yes, they can be unbalanced. Yes, it can be a fair amount of work to get them at least slightly balanced. Yeeees, we can remove the seeds in the subdirectory (and regret it), but... really! :(O

 

I cannot believe that the follow-up/replacement of MOM does not have truly random maps! I mean... I bought this game in far advance, upon hearing that you guys are creating it, meant as a MOM-replacement. You're programs so far have all been truly excellent (I especially love the whole GalCiv series). The modding-abilities in Elemental are a wonderful idea.

But. No. Truly. Random. Maps.  :'(  This means we'll either find a third-party program to generate them for us (you cannot tell me you're incapable of integrating something like this in your code, really!), or will simply stop playing in a couple of months, because... because we know all the maps.  :(

 

Damn. I'll stop playing now and see some kind of funny movie to get my mind of this catastrophe. No, really. This spoils the whole concept of the game for me.  :hugme:

 

Ciao,

Klaus

Reply #105 from Stardock Forums Top

Its been released two days now and you guys have already exhausted all available maps.

 

Rage quitters? O:)

Reply #106 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting LDiCesare, reply 99



Quoting PeeKay777,
reply 91
Do you realise how difficult or what is involved to program a random map generator that produce maps that are realistic and playable?

Just try it with only 2 terrain types - water and land. Say you want a map with one third water and two thirds land. You can not just look at each square and random generator because you will end up with chess board type maps. So you need to be random in a specific areas to create islands and bodies of water. That is just 2 terrain types.

Stardock already have a map generator but its not perfect (as people have said whe they remove the seeded maps) so they have a choice; either allow dodgy map creations or use seeded maps that produce proper maps. I think they made the right choice. They now have time to produce a random map generator that rivals Civ4


My map generator for Civ IV has been included by Firaxis in the latest patches. Cephalo, who also got the game, has made map scripts for Civ IV too, in particular his 'Erebus' map script which is used by FfH2 is absolutely perfect for fantasy worlds like that of Elemental. And I bet he'd provide map scripts for Elemental too if he could (like me, he asked for map script modding).

Seeded maps can't fit the bill because there won't be enough seeds for replayability.

An alternative to an in-game map script would be an external generator, but the map format is a bit obnoxious: They basically put lines of similar terrain in a single tag with a number attribute, which probably makes reading faster and the files terser, but is more of a pain for generation. I think they gain about half the size of the map on a regular map with lots of water. A lot of data seems redundant too, so I don't feel like creating an external program without an explanation of the format, or I could generate maps that won't even load.
End of LDiCesare's quote

 

Having written a few map scripts for Civ myself I just wanted to say that what Cesare is saying is 100% correct. Also having participated in beta I know that they were dealing with problems linking rivers to coasts, and having mountains and forests look reasonable to anyone who's ever looked at a map.

I love Brad and most of the stuff he does but they dropped the ball here and should open it to the community cause this was a problem they couldn't solve; this wasn't lack of resources or time this was a knowledge gap problem.

Reply #107 from Elemental Forums Top

i have definitly encountered a case in the civ-fanatics forum where two ppl got the same seed and therefore the same landmass. civ4 may have maps scripts, but i did and may still use seeded maps in some cases.

Reply #108 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting MichaelCook, reply 105
Its been released two days now and you guys have already exhausted all available maps.

 
Rage quitters?
End of MichaelCook's quote

 

That's not the point.  The game box states "each game produces a new randomly generated world."  No, it does not.  We just want what the box says is included.

Reply #109 from Elemental Forums Top

There also a few stop-gap measures that could work:

A. Simply have random rotation on the existing map seeds. Would take a little longer to spot the seeds this way as one map basically becomes four maps.

B. (This is what I thought we were getting). Maps are constructed from smaller randomly placed seed land-masses with some randomly placed land bridges between them. I assumed because of the random nature of the map names that the name would be the random seed (instead of using a number) so good maps could be shared.

This approach would also allow settings such as:

  • islands (no land bridges)
  • archipelagos (only a few land bridges)
  • central lake (no seed land mass in the centre)
  • Continent (land seeds placed closely so they overlap)
  • and so on.

Where land seeds collide it would basically just give precedence to:

  1. Mountains
  2. Forests
  3. Hills
  4. Plains
Reply #110 from Elemental Forums Top

:( :( :(

 

I just ran into the same map, and thought that the rules of quantum physics went out the window for a second (no pun intended). Now i read this, and it makes me very, very sad :(

Reply #111 from Elemental Forums Top

I was told on chat they are 80% done a random map generator, it works but it is very rough and does not make balanced maps.

Reply #112 from Elemental Forums Top

Hey, if you remove all the seed maps, it does generate a random map.   It just checked it works.   Try it.  Just move any files with the words seed in the title from the game map directory (<installdirectory>\data\Maps), then start a new game.   Voila random map.   Try it you'll like it.   They won't be balanced (but you do start with fertile ground close by at least in all mine I did).

 

Good luck!

Reply #113 from Elemental Forums Top

I do not care if they are balanced or not, some civs will just have to get a bit lucky, while others are there for the taking!

Reply #114 from Elemental Forums Top

Not too happy to see that random maps didn't make it the final release and no plan to add in later. :annoyed:

On the plus side, I've been playing with the Map Editor, it's not that hard to used so I think we will see more custom maps (player created) after things settle out a bit. The Map Editor does have a random map generator, which serves as a good starting point in creating your own maps.

 

 

Reply #115 from Elemental Forums Top

I have to add my voice to the dissapointment.

 

After reading three pages of this thread I have a question....  If a game like Master of magic was able to do Random maps why is Elemental unable to? I don't get it. A game from the 1990 able to do something that in 2010 is unattainable?

 

IN another thread Frogboy says they have random maps,  but continents are the same...

 

That's like saying new york city streets are are shuffled but the town layout is the same. That is not random.  Random is landmasses being different EVERYTIME not just the goodies.

 

So I ask again why is Elemental unable to do what every other games with randomness is able to do. MOM as old as it is is able too... so ???????????

 

If you are saying that doing that means having 1 shard compared to 10 for your opponent well to bad.. life sucks and that is your game... I like that aspect.

 

I am a big player of Galciv2 that game as random maps... so why is elemental unable to do it aswell same dang company no?

 

I don't get it. It's a real turn off.

 

And please don't tell me it's a random map if anything on it is the same as before. If a mountain is at the same place or a forest is also at the same place as before it's not random because I already know where it is... PUtting seeds it is not random because sooner or later I will have played them all. IN diablo 2 I have played so many games I can't even give you a count so please if this game is to be played as much as a very good game like Diablo 2 it better be RANDOM!

 

Sorry but being told that everything is random except... is a lie... it's not random if you have except... in the sentence...

Reply #116 from Elemental Forums Top

I wouldn't think it would be too hard to do a reliable random map generator. Basically, it would lay out like a giant grid, placing resources at least 6-8 units apart, after it's done that it would wrap it all with land. At least, that's how it would work in my mind.

Reply #117 from Elemental Forums Top

I already posted they were working on it, and you ignored that....said they were 80% done on one....

Reply #118 from Elemental Forums Top

I'm certain there will be some sort of update to fix this issue. Stardock doesn't normally leave people like this.

Reply #119 from Elemental Forums Top

[removed]

Reply #120 from Elemental Forums Top

Yes, because random map generation is minor for a 4X game, and open flaming is the best response to those who are rightfully upset about it.  Way to go! :salute:  At the very least, try to at least be creative, your "internet tough guy" routine fails miserably. :zzz:

 

Not to worried about this myself, as either SD or the community will take care of this in the end, and my game library is already too large.  Still rather sad that it seems like they pushed to hard to make this release date :\

Reply #121 from Elemental Forums Top

What!???? No random maps?

Are you kidding me?

I was planning on buying this and was really looking forward to it,...but this means I will not buy it.

Unbelievable,........how can you possibly make a game like this and not realize that not including a random map generator was a VERY BAD idea? Like many lost sales and many upset customers bad......................

And saying they are working on one,....after their lecture on how doing that exact thing is wrecking the industry goes on my list of humorous hypocrites.

Reply #122 from Elemental Forums Top

In Other News:  Chicken Little has reported that the Sky is indeed falling!!

 

This is easily the worst launch in my memory as a gamer from the early 80s on my TI-994A "Personal Computer" - not for the Product, or Support, but for the Customers.

 

Stardock moves relatively quickly to reasonable suggestions, and Stardock doesn't have any "Abandonware" that I know of.  So please take a placebo and relax.

Reply #123 from Elemental Forums Top

Seriously did you miss what I wrote?  They are working on it WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reply #124 from Elemental Forums Top

 

No random maps is a big game breaker for me, I won't play even my first game of Elemental.  Don't want to ruin the first impressions with an unpatched fully realized game.  ((I bought the limited edition)).  Stardock will add it though! They always do!

Reply #125 from Elemental Forums Top

Read the whole topic scott - you can enable custom maps.