Frogboy-

Why even put the distinction between Fallen and Kingdoms to begin with? It would simplify the game a LOT to remove these. Perhaps have an in-game alliance (like the United Nations in Civ, or the Under/Over councils in Fall from Heaven) that factions start out as. Because this game at its heart is about alternative history (You play through a timeline, each game radically different. No game will play out exactly like the books for example), different factions in each game could become part of the Fallen or the Kingdoms. This would expand the game considerably, and remove the complexity you were talking about.

I know its expensive and time consuming to even consider both options. If one HAS to be chosen, focus more on customization. Otherwise try to get as much lore-related stuff in as possible, but make sure to focus on customization.

Results:

I would like to see the following depending on which one is chosen if you go to either extreme.

Customization:

Being able to create RADIACLLY different races. Centaurs, Ents, Avians (with different styles of wings), cat-men, satyrs (half-men, half goats), horns, hooves, 4 legged and 6 legged creatures. Multi-Armed creatures which can carry extra weapons, tails, blobs, bugs, you name it. Is that asking a lot? - Ok maybe not the multi-armed thing, but you get the idea

Lore:

Thousands of unique quests, dynamic cut-scenes, an award winning story.

You had a good post until you said this.  Completely disagree.  Customized factions/races whatever should have all abilities available.  I don't want limitations.  Restrictions could come from mutually exclusive abilities and points but not from trying to make a certain faction unique.  Canon factions should be unique amongst themselves but shouldn't effect the customized factions.

I understand it more along the lines of...

Do you want an explanation as to what culture (insert faction) has and why, and have that history show up in its artwork?  So those fish people would have buildings and armor that resemble coral or some under-the-sea theme.

or

Do you want an explanation as to what culture (insert faction) has and why, but not have it show up in the factions artwork, but be able to create your own race. So races would share artwork based on whether they were kingdom or empire, but you could create your own race with its own unique pros and cons.

At least that's how I understand it. The first option could look impressive, its a overall a tough call, for me.  I'm split, but leaning to the customization, cause that's what I enjoy doing the most in these types of games.

I want a button in online games to disable custom races, because I'd rather play with known entities, not get wiped by a cheesed super-race with laser-eyes. However cool it would be to have that in singleplayer.

I'd rather see the principle numerical values belong to the Faction, and not the Race. A faction should be good at building something. The basic stats of the Race should impact the starting stats of the soldiers and provide slight boosts, but overall I'd rather have the Factions be the core of the gameplay.

However it's my understanding that Trogs are a heck of a lot more powerful than Urxen. It may need to be more complicated than just this. Urxen might need to compensate by having larger numbers (that's a tech tree impact) or by building Urxen warriors a lot faster (which is a building speed impact).

I am more on the side of expanding the base lore than adding more race assets and distinction. I come to that conclusion for the following reasons:

I assume that the 10 factions will be different enough that they play quite differently.

I also assume that a player can create their own unique faction with their own bonuses if they want.

Each faction is made up of a particular race and this fact should be well publicised through the lore.

Logically there should be some relationship between the canonical factions abilities and their canonical race. Thus if a faction is made up of a particularly strong and warlike race then Stargate should design to faction to have melee combat bonuses.

Given the above features of the factions there is no reason that the race needs to make any further gameplay difference at this point - they are already implicitely factored in via the faction abilities.

My conclusion is also based on the limited resources Brad talks about. If there are enough resources then obviously expanding the role of race would be nice. The definition of "enough resources" depends on how much would need to be cut from the core lore in order to do racial bonuses. Only Brad and his team can really make that call, but I certainly think the strength of the core factions, lore etc will be the main thing driving mass popularity of the game... modding will kick in as a byproduct of that popularity, rather than causing the popularity.

I'm pretty sure that kingdoms and empires are already too established in the lore(remember there's a book in production) to remove them. And I personally don't think it's all that complicated. You're one race that generally aligns with a certain side. Though there are a few distinct races/species, it generally comes down to men=kingdom, fallen=empire, with one exception iirc.

The preference I seem to see is that some people would rather play their own game rather than one that Stardock creates. Then there's people such as myself that would rather live up the Elemental story rather than create our own. I think there's clearly room to meet in between, but of course I'm of the preference that focus should be spent on making the existing factions incredibly distinct and diverse in game play rather than take more bland factions with the the ability to heavily customize your own.

I'm starting to get what Frogboy is getting at. With a more flexible race system, it'd be easier to do more interesting things with them, for example multiracial empires and interbreeding. And I've got to say I'm beginning to like this idea. It's just... the decision between this awesome feature and taking resources away from developing factions is really jarring. I think this is why the reaction is so strong, there's a sort of false dilemma, and it's in the way we perceive how the OP was originally written.

I'm more on the "custom races" side now, I think. If anything, I think the infrastructure to make interesting races and do interesting things with them is really valuable. We can always go back and make factions more "special". However, we really only have one shot at getting races right. And for god's sake, this is a fantasy game... it should be easy to at least make elves.

My fear with, let's say, a "spore" like system is a homogeneity among the creatures. I think custom made creatures, made from various clippings of models and textures, lacks the sort of artistry which gives the "spark of life" to creations made by even mediocre artists (like myself). Another concern would be the potential difficulty in inserting new elements. I often notice how the more easy-to-use modding tools are, the less power you actually have to alter things in a dramatic way.

Ive been mulling this over for a few days, and finally decided to add my 2 cents. personally i love lore, if well done a game can often have the same feeling as a novel, with distinctive characters/cultures. societies you'd love to live in, characters you love to hate! in GC2 it was the Yor for them it was genocide every time, hehe just machines so it's ok right? 

that said, id vote for expanded racial distinctions and for a custom race creator. i figure what better way to get people to try out each faction then to make them interesting via diverse races. the trick being how to jazz up the kingdom factions, or the faction creator, as they are all men... for now.  though I'd likely end up making my own sov, faction, and race in the end. ill still play the pre made ones as well, and id certainly like to play against them. im just not sure more lore or art is going to make me enjoy the game any more. I DO know the racial custom tool alone could keep me entertained for hours, add to that the map editor... i may not see the light of day once this thing is released.

Done right, there's no reason why art made for the Fallen races can't carry over to the custom races. If I can size and scale and tint a racial model, then my dark-skinned long-eared blood eyed Fallen just became my pale-skinned, tall elven custom model.

That of course means all of the armour and whatnot has to scale as well, so it'll actually fit onto my custom race. Sticking to the base humanoid shape and varying the animations for races seems important to get the maximum bang for buck on a given set of armour.

It'd suck to have to make different sets for different races, meaning the assets have to get divided in half.

I'm not saying "Remove them" as in make no mention of it. But remove them from being a factor during game creation. If any faction could join the empires or the kingdoms it would essentially be relegated to an in-game choice (likely somewhere near the start of mid-game). This would not impact the book, because obviously in the books version of the story (again remember we are playing an alternative history) those specific 5 races joined each side. 

Focus on the races, let us customize the factions.

If that is the question then the answer is BOTH.  Because the same dev resources are not required to do both, which is why I don't think that is the question.  Though if it is then my question remains.  What's all this fuss about?

Everyone seems to agree that game play mechanics are what are most important, everything else is going to flow from them.  So lets make sure those mechanics are sound and in place before we worry too much about messing around with them.

Now, if the question is how to implement these mechanics with respect to race, then I see that as a completely different question, and my answer is, do whatever makes the AI work the best.  So if 'race' creates a problem in captured cities, or adds migration, or whatever you have, and this borks the AI in some way, then figure out a solution for that.

I would prefer to expand the race differences than the faction differences.  Although don't gimp the faction lore too much, since that will be a big part of the storyline.

I'd also like to know that...

I'm in favor of "...build out the Factions with more lore and artwork. Current customization of factions would remain."

But, I don't understand why we would have to eliminate race distinctions for that? (To be honest, eliminating race distinctions seems like it'd do the opposite of building out the factions'...). I mean, after all, why not implement all the canon races (urxen, ironeer, etc) along with their relevant racial distinctions and race models. Then just use that as the foundation for the different factions. For example to make the Umber faction, start with the Urxen race and then pile on the faction-specific differences from there.

That wouldn't give us custom races, but it would still allow us to choose race and faction. IE, ironeers might get higher HP and sturdier buildings or something. When building a custom faction, first I could choose from any of the canon races (ironeer, men, urxen trog, etc), and then customize my faction from there. Or maybe that's you meant to begin with.

That'd be my vote.

My vote would be to spend effort on allowing players to customize their own factions/races.

If by "Expand the race distinctions and provide more assets and code to support players creating their own custom factions made up by their own custom races." you mean that each custom race could have custom units with special abilities (regeneration, flight, resistance, water walking, holiness), I'd vote for that.  Yes, I'm a fan of MoM.

If by "Expand the ...." you mean allowing difference in mundane attributes (graphics, clothes, swords, defense, attack, etc, but NOT magical  abilities/units with special abilities) I vote for something else.

I want each game to be different, and MAGICAL.  The units need to have more magic affecting/defining them.  I'd prefer that each city allow you to build that city's units, so you get different units depending on which cities you conquer.  This means your faction eventually could have any unit in it.

p.s. Thanks for listening to us who dream about the perfect game. 

I say focus on the lore of the factions and the original races, then allow further customization of races in patches or expansions.  Stardock is awesome at worthwhile content patching.

Since the poll regarding factions has 80% of the gamers choosing "The one I create myself"...  I would lean towards customization.  Even gamers who won't be interested in customizing their own race can tweak an existing race or choose one of the popular races made within the community.

Of course I don't think any created race will be THAT powerful. Balance must be maintained or everyone will make the same race. The Devs know not to do that. Balance is one of the first things any good game designer learns. Something I learned first hand working on UO back in the day.

If we get the ability to do custom races they will have the same abilities that are in game now (plus a few) but the player would have free reign to mix and match them as they saw fit. It won't be something that's over-powering. That much I at least know for sure.

That Poll was based on a Beta build where the players were asked to TEST the engines ability to CREATE a customized Faction/Race/SoV. If that moduled had been left out until Beta 3, do you think the results would have been similiar?

It was BIASED from the get go.

So being Green, but with +1 this and +2 that, vs being Blue with +1 that and +2 this is exciting?

If we can get 10 fleshed out, Dev made Races/Factions, across 2 Alignments, how can we then assume that anything made via "customization" based on the "same set of abilities" will be somehow "different" other than color, height, weight etc.

In the SandBox I would argue go nuts. But if the MP side is to flourish, the reason to even consider a hybrid, then the base game has to be set in stone, or Lore. You select the term.

Early simple Customizations, with a promise of expansionwould seem to be the Marketable solution. Never forget you face the Console market if you want to hit a market outside the current 4X player base...

Yup.  I'm for that.

Well if we do go down the route of Racial Differences as well as Faction Differences I think that it should work towards limiting those options to things that makes sense. After all a lot of the stereo types that exist in the world today are based mainly on culture. For example one group is not better with math and electronics then another but because they have high educational values it seems like all the people of this "type" are tech heads.

So basically racial bonuses should be things that make sense as a natural consequence of some genetic trait. Such has eagle like vision that allows their units to see an extra space. Higher endurance that allows them to move further. Larger size and strength means they hit harder but not as good at dodging. Things like this should be restricted to racial traits.

On the other hand things like excellent traders should be restricted to culture. After all there is no genetic trait that makes you a better merchant. You might have higher charisma or high intelligence but that doesn't directly translate into a race that is good at trading. They could use their charisma to be diplomats with no real interest in material gains. Or their high intelligence to focus purely on research.

This line of thought those does bring up some interesting combinations though. How about having some faction traits that require racial traits? Such as you can't become Highly skilled Diplomats without a race that has high charisma. There would be lower version such as Skilled Diplomats with a smaller bonus that everyone can get. This way the cultures that arise better fit with the races. It also opens up a whole new world of modding if the mechanic is already in place.

I think the story and the races should be kept mostly in Stardock's hands, and you should put the effort into developing those with your original vision.  I think it is best for the game overall, and will give it a strong single-player foundation.  I'm sure whatever customization tools you give us will be great and the player base can branch out with stories and races from there.