Frogboy Frogboy

Let’s try this again…

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Let’s try this again…

from JoeUser Forums

This week we’ve put up a couple of journals that are soliciting input from players on what they’d like to see in terms of faction customization.

My journals were clearly too wordy as I failed to convey the fundamental questions at hand.

So I’ll put it in bullet point form. :)

  • We are rapidly nearing Beta 3 where the “game” itself comes together.
  • At that point we will need to decide where to focus our asset creation (read: Artists and Random House writers).
  • Presently, Elemental supports Alignment (Kingdom vs. Empire), Faction (Altar, Pariden, etc.) and Race (Men, Urxen, Trog, etc.).
  • Presently, the assets (read: Art and Writing) has not been put in place which means we can still make pretty significant changes.
  • There are two general directions to take:
    • Eliminate the race distinctions and instead build out the Factions with more lore and artwork. Current customization of factions would remain.
    • Expand the race distinctions and provide more assets and code to support players creating their own custom factions made up by their own custom races.

There are pros and cons in either direction. 

Some people might find it confusing that factions and races are different. Kraxis is a faction that is made up of men that is part of the Empire. Umber is a faction that is made up of Urxen, a Fallen Race that is also part of the Empire.

On the other hand, having factions and races that are different provides us the ability to provide customization in terms of culture and genetics.

In Civilization, the differences between civilizations were ones of culture. They’re all humans.

In Master of Orion, the differences between civilizations were purely genetics. The factions were the races.

In Elemental, the difference between civilizations is based on their culture (Altar vs. Pariden) AND based on their race (Men vs. Trog).

So the question is, where would people like to see the focus? More emphasis on making the game lore with the 10 factions.  Or more emphasis on making it easy for players (in game) to customize their own factions/races?

510,169 views 207 replies
Reply #76 from Elemental Forums Top

I would come down on the side of more customization.  Fiddlin' with stats, tendencies, body types, etc. is what I like to do.

Reply #77 from Elemental Forums Top

I agree with this:

 

Expand the race distinctions and provide more assets and code to support players creating their own custom factions made up by their own custom races.

 

More customization is always more fun, it will give the game a longer life spam and more strategic options.

 

Its my opinion of course.

Multiplicity - Control multiple PCs using one keyboard and mouse
Reply #78 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting shadowtongue, reply 62

I truly do not understand why Brad is asking about this.
End of shadowtongue's quote

Testing the waters? Curiosity? Inmediate post-release support?o_O

Reply #79 from Elemental Forums Top

I would definately go for:

Expand the race distinctions and provide more assets and code to support players creating their own custom factions made up by their own custom races.

We need unique factions/races that play differently. And to achieve that, I think it is an illusion that some background lore from a few creative writers on contract is the answer. The answer lies rather in the game mechanics, this is a game after all. The least priority for making this the greatest strategy game should in my view be put on background story lore. Artwork is more important. But most important are the game elements, e.g. will you be able to make a race with wings or not? With IMPORTANT and unique special abilities or not? The customization, as already stated elsewhere so many times, is what will keep the game on the harddrive, not the campaign or story.

Also, try to look at what made MoM and AoW into popular games. It was not the story lore I would say, but rather the races/factions that lpayed out very well.  

Reply #80 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Tormy-, reply 73


Nop, that is option 2. Option 2 = More customization [racial/factional] options within the game itself...at least I think that this is what Froggie meant.
End of Tormy-'s quote

 

Well then we read it differently.  I cannot imagine that if all they do is expand the 10 basic factions they wouldn't allow for customization within that pool of abilities/artwork/...

 

Think MoO2.  You have stock factions, or you make your own faction choosing 'traits' from those built in the game.

 

Option 2 seems more about making mods where entirely new 'races' are created.  That means new artwork, new 'traits', new ...

 

Option 2 is the 'modder' option.  Which I hope comes at some point, but not at the expense of the initial development of the game play/balance/immersion.

 

Because really, for all the 'I play my own stuff' posts, how many people actually mean that they want to create their own unique race with artwork/new traits/new techs/new ...

 

As opposed to creating their own 'faction' by tweaking existing game elements?

 

Reply #81 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting the, reply 79

Also, try to look at what made MoM and AoW into popular games. It was not the story lore I would say, but rather the races/factions that lpayed out very well.  
End of the's quote

 

Perhaps, but realize that the amount of customization available to those games was essentially zero.

 

If we're just twisting ourselves over the need to be able to graphically represent winged dudes vs. non-winged dudes vs. pointy eared dudes then I think we're wasting our time and Brads.

 

The factions should (hopefully) be differentiated enough from each other in terms of how they play (as opposed to simply how they look) that this quibble over 'races' becomes meaningless.

 

Other than for the hard core peeps who can't play without winged dudes fighting pointy eared dudes.

Reply #82 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting shadowtongue, reply 81

Quoting the Gorgon, reply 79
Also, try to look at what made MoM and AoW into popular games. It was not the story lore I would say, but rather the races/factions that lpayed out very well.  
 

Perhaps, but realize that the amount of customization available to those games was essentially zero.

 

If we're just twisting ourselves over the need to be able to graphically represent winged dudes vs. non-winged dudes vs. pointy eared dudes then I think we're wasting our time and Brads.

 

The factions should (hopefully) be differentiated enough from each other in terms of how they play (as opposed to simply how they look) that this quibble over 'races' becomes meaningless.

 

Other than for the hard core peeps who can't play without winged dudes fighting pointy eared dudes.
End of shadowtongue's quote

Here I think you miss the crucial fact that if you have wings you can also fly, which makes the whole difference for game play. People have not asked for just graphical differences, we want game play differences based on faction and race. Races are maningless in the present beta sicne they are not really included yet.

Reply #83 from Elemental Forums Top

Personally i would vote for more race assests and more factions customization even if it meant less artwork and lore for the built in factions.

I would like it that it be made very easy for the regular player to customize your faction. It is part of the fun imo to build up your own faction, and as DamnedChoir put it "If I want to be a race of armor-lovin' miners and smiths, or tree-hugging archers, or fire-wielding wizard-folk, I should be able to".

Even though this question hasn't been raised i believe a good solution might be to go for more race distinctions assets etc.. (ex the second option in frogboy's post) and reduce the number of factions available (for example to 6) to have them more fleshed out. If faction customisation is easy, the number of built in factions would be less important: it should be possible to save them and have them become potential enemies next game around.

Reply #84 from Elemental Forums Top
With it all clearly laid out in stone like that, my opinion has actually shifted somewhat from where it was. Given that chosing the option for more customisation isn't going to mean tearing at the soul of the game, hacking away lore and factions and everything else... I'd much rather see us keep the Factions and Races seperation distinct, and give us more options for customisation at the racial level.
Reply #85 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting the, reply 82

Here I think you miss the crucial fact that if you have wings you can also fly, which makes the whole difference for game play. People have not asked for just graphical differences, we want game play differences based on faction and race. Races are maningless in the present beta sicne they are not really included yet.
End of the's quote

 

Eh?

 

Who says you need wings to fly?  Who says all winged dudes can fly?

 

I think you miss the fact that it doesn't matter what it looks like, it matters what choices there are to make the game play.

*If* the factions are indeed unique in interesting game play ways then all of this moaning about 'races' is purely cosmetic.

 

Does that mean you shouldn't have the option to make your winged men?  Not at all.  It means that taking time now from developing the rest of the game, such that you can make your winged men immediately, seems to be putting the cart infront of the horse.

Reply #86 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Denryu, reply 2
I would like to see the emphasis on the Lore. Any tools that can be included to make truly unique races is a big plus.

I think that having deep lore in the game is what is going to make me fall in love with it.

I think the ability to make my own races is what will keep the game on my hard drive. For the inital game I think the deep lore is critical, an expansion with tools for creating your own races down the road makes more sense to me. Trying to add the lore later is just going to look stupid and kludgy.
End of Denryu's quote

I'm going to have to second this. As much as I'd like to have extreme customization tools for creating my own race, I want to fall in love with the lore of elemental; the lore seems like it is going to be phenomenal and get me hooked to not just elemental: war of magic, but the world of elemental and thus, anything elemental cannon. +1 for expanding the lore. If it is possible, add the race customization tools later, but the lore should take priority.

Reply #87 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting shadowtongue, reply 85

Who says all winged dudes can fly?
End of shadowtongue's quote

True! *stares at his avatar* :D [Sorry for going OT, I couldn't resist!]

Reply #88 from Elemental Forums Top

My personal preference is for you to focus on building out the Factions with more lore and artwork.  I think the game would be more enjoyable that way.  Major customization stuff can maybe be visited later.

Reply #89 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting shadowtongue, reply 85

Quoting the Gorgon, reply 82
Here I think you miss the crucial fact that if you have wings you can also fly, which makes the whole difference for game play. People have not asked for just graphical differences, we want game play differences based on faction and race. Races are maningless in the present beta sicne they are not really included yet.
 

Eh?

 

Who says you need wings to fly?  Who says all winged dudes can fly?

 

I think you miss the fact that it doesn't matter what it looks like, it matters what choices there are to make the game play.

*If* the factions are indeed unique in interesting game play ways then all of this moaning about 'races' is purely cosmetic.

 

Does that mean you shouldn't have the option to make your winged men?  Not at all.  It means that taking time now from developing the rest of the game, such that you can make your winged men immediately, seems to be putting the cart infront of the horse.
End of shadowtongue's quote

Looks and game play must go together to a large extent to keep players happy. If I want a faction of bird men, I do want to see their wings. Not just a human peasant that can move anywhere on the map. I thought that was pretty obvious. So you are wrong when you say that factions unique in gameplay makes "moaning about races purely cosmetic". By the way, cosmetics is very important for attractiveness, and should not be scoffed at! ^_^

 

Reply #90 from Elemental Forums Top

Expand the race distinctions and provide more assets and code to support players creating their own custom factions made up by their own custom races.

This is the way to go. Lets make our own story.

Reply #91 from Elemental Forums Top

PS:  Now that I think we have a firmer understanding of what, precisely, you are proposing, perhaps we could have it in poll form? (Also now that from the prior one, most people understand how to find such polls now. ;) )

Reply #92 from Elemental Forums Top

I'm interested in seeing prebuilt factions and the lore behind them, so I guess that is where I'd rather focus go.

Not that I dislike customization, far from it. But I really like the idea of having interesting factions. If anything, in a future patch/expansion, you could add focus to improving customization more easily then you could add the lore in.

Though to be honest, I'm still finding the subject hard to grasp. I just want to say "yes" to the question and get both. :) So I wouldn't put too much stock in my answers.

Reply #93 from Elemental Forums Top

I'm in favor of the lore.  As much as I value customization (and I do), I want the worlds in which I play to be rich, more than settings for moving my pieces around.  I want to have background that allows me to imagine motivations for my sovereign beyond power, and not cut those notions from whole cloth.  Give me a world with lore that's solid and complete, and I'll give myself so much fiction my Kindle purchases will drop off for months.

Reply #94 from Elemental Forums Top

Expand Race Distinctions please :)

Id like to have very different playstyles depending on the race i play.

Reply #95 from Elemental Forums Top

Basically I see Frogboy's question as this....

Do you want a Explanation as to why (insert faction name here) lives by the ocean? Or do you want to be able to make a race with fish fins and gills?

Do you want to know why (insert faction name here) lives near mountains? Or do you want to be able to make a race with wings?

What sounds more fun? Knowing why someone lives near water or playing as fish people?

Note: the fish thing was just a example.

Reply #96 from Elemental Forums Top

To be honest, I'd prefer going with the writing.  I don't like it when choices made at the beginning of a game determine the majority of gameplay events, as I much prefer it when the distinctions evolve over time.

In a Dominions game I'm playing right now, my entire strategy revolved around independant longbowmen and gryphon riders I'm getting from a few independant provinces.  Now, however, I'm finding I'm in deep trouble in late-game because of a few choices I made three months ago at the start of the game, with no chance of correction, all due to the static spell and technology listings.

I'm all for removing racial distinctions.  I would much rather see my faction develop as a result of choices and events as the game continues.  I'm not opposed to them being included for modding and expansions.. but I don't want to see Stardock wasting time adding too many racial assets at the start of the game.

I'm not seeing either approach as being wrong.  Just a decision.

Reply #97 from Elemental Forums Top

 Expand the race distinctions and provide more assets and code to support players creating their own custom factions made up by their own custom races

 

I would have to say this option would be both something that would make the game interesting and more involved. Mabey I could suggest Templates that would let people start with major stats allready in and then just be able to tweak minor stats, for all the pople who want just some custimization.

Reply #98 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Raven, reply 95
Basically I see Frogboy's question as this....

Do you want a Explanation as to why (insert faction name here) lives by the ocean? Or do you want to be able to make a race with fish fins and gills?

Do you want to know why (insert faction name here) lives near mountains? Or do you want to be able to make a race with wings?

What sounds more fun? Knowing why someone lives near water or playing as fish people?

Note: the fish thing was just a example.
End of Raven's quote

:grin: Couldn't have put it better! :grin:

Reply #99 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Raven, reply 95
Basically I see Frogboy's question as this....

Do you want a Explanation as to why (insert faction name here) lives by the ocean? Or do you want to be able to make a race with fish fins and gills?

Do you want to know why (insert faction name here) lives near mountains? Or do you want to be able to make a race with wings?

What sounds more fun? Knowing why someone lives near water or playing as fish people?

Note: the fish thing was just a example.
End of Raven's quote

Oh come on, now you're just silly. That's not what frogboy ment and you know that. There is more difference here then "just some writing" on one side and omfg dozens of playable races on the other side. -_-

 

 

Personally I'm strongly in support of well fleshed out stock races. It's just more fun to crush an interesting opponent then random fantasy race no. 234 with pointy ears and who sparkly in the day. ;)

Reply #100 from Elemental Forums Top

More lore. Simply put; people fall in love with stories not more customization, as fun as that can be.

I will look back and remember an epic battle between two factions with a deep history struggling over ancestral land, not so much the 17th custom race i made out of 50.