Switching away from encumbrance system has resulted in a lot of useless junk

By on April 17, 2013 12:01:28 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

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Now that armor proficiency is required for various types of armor, some of the low level treasure finds have become useless junk like a rusty plate helm with a defensive value of +2. By the time a unit could use it, much better options would be available. Another example is the rusty chainmail.

 

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April 17, 2013 12:06:17 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I was worried about this 

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April 17, 2013 12:10:38 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

yup, it's not very good for most hero types.

 

Defenders get chain for free and plate isn't too hard to get (and in the correct path as well).  So they get a big boost to early game armour.  Most other hero types might as well sell the armour, or save it for the next hero if they are defenders.

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April 17, 2013 12:23:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


In short: Encumbrance system was not bad, it had a major flaw because it only had two points in which it had any effect (40% and 80%). Instead of removing the system it would had been much better to fix it making it much more gradual.

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April 17, 2013 1:46:33 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I tend to agree. Also some traits are really somehow broken now.

Muscle and Strength now both give +2 atk, but have different prices 20 and 12 labor cost if i remember correctly.

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April 17, 2013 2:09:59 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Many powerful weapons are also useless since it is so difficult to now achieve the level required.

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April 17, 2013 2:24:00 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I am hoping that once they settle on their design changes, they go back and balance and polish the equipment to fix, but right now with things still up in the air, it might be easier to do that last.  But then again, the level problems on weapons have been there for some time.     

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April 17, 2013 3:29:45 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ,
Now that armor proficiency is required for various types of armor, some of the low level treasure finds have become useless junk like a rusty plate helm with a defensive value of +2. By the time a unit could use it, much better options would be available. Another example is the rusty chainmail.

 

Definately. Without encumrance, why pick stuff other than the best available?

With encumbrance, there was the added mechanic of picking the best available based on condition of max weight. You had to choose where to make the cuts and savings.

Phew....glad I'm still playing FE.

 

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April 17, 2013 5:28:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I don't understand this "running in circles" thing. Balance and polish are back to square one, meanwhile the game is re-imagined (again!) rather than expanded and improved. Not for the first time, I'm baffled by the course the development is taking.

Sure, I'm all for the Fame mechanic, at least. Can't say differently, as I was a very vocal supporter of it since the Elemental: War of Magic era... but, back then, the argument was regularly dismissed. Also I've always (and again, vocally) opposed the chance-based and messy leveling system of heroes. So, I welcome the related changes as "fixes", but at this late stage changes should be kept to a strict minimum anyway.

Encumbrance was a fine enough mechanic, imho. At least, no so bad as to make it worth throwing half of the other game elements into chaos by removing it.

 

 

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April 17, 2013 6:00:32 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Not sure I see the problem with its removal.  As I understood it, basically encumbrance was just cut off points for effecting initiative.  Items that raised encumbrance, were effectively just "plus" initiative items . Now each armor piece directly effects initiative.  

Items that would have let you carry more, now raise initiative (and the few that got "broke" like strength/muscle I assume will get fixed soon enough).

 

 

 

 

 

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April 17, 2013 6:08:10 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Maybe, instead of having on/off switch on armor, give all armor heavier than leather a huge initiative penalty, and have armor proficiency lower it?

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April 17, 2013 6:20:05 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

some of the low level treasure finds have become useless junk

unlike before?  From time immemorial, this game has always had a lot of useless junk.

Quoting GFireflyE,
Without encumrance, why pick stuff other than the best available?

Equipping your heroes with the best equipment available?  We don't want the player to do that!  Next you'll be suggesting that they use the most powerful spells and make the most powerful units they can.

Obviously, they'll need to balance the items again.  But Stardock does that all the time.  In fact, if they're listening on these forums, they're already rebalancing all the weapons to do less damage.  So what?

Encumbrance was a stupid system that wasn't fun and added no depth.  Good riddance!

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April 17, 2013 6:48:47 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

as much as I understand some of the frustrations and criticisms due to the removal of the entire encumbrance system (I initially was very skeptical myself), I have to agree with sweatyboatman here. Encumbrance was not a good system and added a form of micromanagment that didn't add any meaningful depth, the more time that passed without it, the less I actually mourn its removal. I think armor proficiencies are a better solution if they are followed by more varied traits connected to different pieces of armor.

Basically, all item values and champion traits have to be adapted and rebalanced, but hey, that's what the beta is for.

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April 17, 2013 7:04:27 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting GFireflyE,




quoting post
Now that armor proficiency is required for various types of armor, some of the low level treasure finds have become useless junk like a rusty plate helm with a defensive value of +2. By the time a unit could use it, much better options would be available. Another example is the rusty chainmail.

 



Definately. Without encumrance, why pick stuff other than the best available?

With encumbrance, there was the added mechanic of picking the best available based on condition of max weight. You had to choose where to make the cuts and savings.

Phew....glad I'm still playing FE.

 

You forget about the initiative penalties they added to heavier armor (since it's no longer dervrived from what % of your ecumbrance bar is filled). In fact, in the curent (.80) build, some of the most succesful units I've made have completly eschewed anything heavier than leather, to keep thier initiative high so they can run in and slaughter front-line guys before they have a chance to move and take advantage of swarm, something that would be very difficult if they were wearing some form of chain or plate.

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April 17, 2013 7:14:34 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Did I miss the part where people were clamoring for changes to this system?

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April 17, 2013 9:06:29 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I just want to stop collecting 5 wooden shields in a row. That's all I ask!

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April 17, 2013 9:33:03 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting FuzzyGold,

Many powerful weapons are also useless since it is so difficult to now achieve the level required.

On the other hand, I can now equip my champions with a Guillotine Axe very early on, if I find an Escaped Juggernaut, because I no longer have to concern myself with it weighing EIGHTY-FREAKING POUNDS!

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April 17, 2013 11:35:48 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I liked the encumberance system.  Not sure why it was necessary to nix it.

I had a situation in on of my recent games where I found that super heavy badass double/quad bladed axe thingie that was super heavy (100 lbs or something like that).  I chose to give it to Bacco, but it was too heavy even for him.  So I ended up picking a strength trait to boost his carrying capacity so he could actually use it.  I also gave him the Backpack of Holding to help as well.  Normally I wouldn't have bothered with the trait, but thanks to encumberance rules I had need of said trait.

Now the Backpack of Holding (or whatever it is called) only gives a +1 to initiative.  Lame.

These are the kind of decisions that make the game more interesting.  By taking things like this out, the game loses some of it's flavor.

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April 18, 2013 12:54:13 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Nyysjan,

Maybe, instead of having on/off switch on armor, give all armor heavier than leather a huge initiative penalty, and have armor proficiency lower it?

I dont have an issue with the current system (have only played one full game on .8) but this seems like a good, simple idea.

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April 18, 2013 1:35:17 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

What is curious to me is that they obviously went to a lot of trouble to take out this system, including developing new skill trees, changing graphics, and re-balancing numerous items and weapons. I just don't understand, with the other issues in the game currently, why this was focused on. I'd be curious to hear from Derek about what internally caused this need, because it sure didn't seem to come from the forums.

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April 18, 2013 2:00:05 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Not really liking the removal of encumbrance.  Though I do like the requirement of Chain/Plate in the Hero skill tree.  The problem in the skill tree (as mentioned elsewhere) is how long it takes to actually obtain skills due to the extremely slow leveling process.

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April 18, 2013 2:37:16 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting GFireflyE,
Definately. Without encumrance, why pick stuff other than the best available?

Because the different weapons and armors SHOULD have different penalties (initiative, dodge, ...) and SHOULD require proficiency traits that can be instantly selected, because they are in the general tree.

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April 18, 2013 4:29:48 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

What about that fancy, red, magic cloak with 5 armor, 6 dodge, and no init penalty? I forget what it's called, but that was broken before, and it's broken now, too.

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April 18, 2013 4:41:57 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting sxyz123,

Not sure I see the problem with its removal.  As I understood it, basically encumbrance was just cut off points for effecting initiative.  Items that raised encumbrance, were effectively just "plus" initiative items . Now each armor piece directly effects initiative.  

Items that would have let you carry more, now raise initiative (and the few that got "broke" like strength/muscle I assume will get fixed soon enough).
 

The problem is that previously each unit could have a different encumbrance maximum. So the effect of a heavy item was not the same in a strong unit than in a weak unit. Now all units get affected the same, all get the same initiative modifier regardless if they are a wizard or a warrior. So why bother going to the gym?

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April 18, 2013 5:28:33 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yeah I can't see why they removed it.  It could have used some tweaking, such as more levels and dodge negatives, but the system seems a bit simple now.

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April 18, 2013 6:44:02 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

You are not supposed to wear the rusty plate, you are supposed to recycle it! It's a clever educative element, and a reason why Stardock is eligible for EU subsidies for spreading the environment awareness agenda!

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