Legendary Heroes - Pre-Beta video

By on March 10, 2013 7:07:38 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001
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Hi everyone!

Here is a lengthy play through of Legendary Heroes. Note that this is pre-beta and there will be a lot of improvements, especially visually, between now and release.

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March 10, 2013 8:00:50 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Good video. I like the pioneer changes, swarm, growth changes, instant battles are great, looks like you accounted for the what if I have ranged question, talents trees are great. The battle report screen showing injury reports instead of multiple windows is a nice improvement. Here are some things I would like to see, not necessarily for release:

- A continue move button that like in Endless Space, so all units that already have a waypoint set will move towards their waypoint when you click this button or hotkey. This would be a huge quality of life improvement and it should take minimal coding time. This basically would run the continue movement portion of end turn. 

- give a city upgrade option on the city UI or prevent cancelling out of the screen unless you select an upgrade.

- Would it be possible to add the Gal Civ 2 Rally system for units or give us the ability to choose which square units leave the city at. 

- if you attack a unit and no defending stack remains the attacker should claim the empty square

- I liked the armies all requiring city pop mechanic which appears to have been given back to pioneers. Any possibility this will return for other units.

 

Anyways, I'm sure you have no shortage of "suggestions" I'm excited for the beta.

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March 10, 2013 10:45:15 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Great vid! Thanks for the preview.

- Swarm seems a little overpowered atm.

- Love the recruit champion and champion upgrade system.

- Would be nice if a popup still appeared showing champion damages instead of just in the combat results...

- How about that Assassin Demon, eh?

- Maybe it's just the vid quality coming through, but it seemed to me that the graphics for the goodie huts, resources, etc has gone down a notch. Either that or you've changes a bunch of the structures and I like the FE ones better...

- Are 32-bit users going to be given the option to turn on pedestrians?

- Love the new way city growth operates.

- Really love the way Fame is applied to the game.

- Really like the pathfinding notes before moving your units. Very nice touch.

- Terrain seemed a little bland. I think I'm going to miss the ground cover terrain graphics.

 

Again, great work! Looking forward to when it's released aside from Steam. Will get a copy then.

 

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March 10, 2013 11:03:19 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Because it can't be said enough, I love the new champion leveling and acquisition. Also like that city spam is being addressed, although I'll hold off of saying I love it till I play it and decide that I do (or, you know, don't if I don't )

 

Also, I just checked and shadowbolt can only be used every other turn in my FE, is steam distributing an old version or are you just too used to the stardock internal build?

 

btw, loving how much you talk on these forums frogboy, it's refreshing .

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March 10, 2013 11:04:06 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting GFireflyE,

- Maybe it's just the vid quality coming through, but it seemed to me that the graphics for the goodie huts, resources, etc has gone down a notch. Either that or you've changes a bunch of the structures and I like the FE ones better...

- Terrain seemed a little bland. I think I'm going to miss the cover terrain graphics.

 

Pretty sure that's what Brad meant when he said the shadows were missing. But agree I want the color pallete and everything to remain the same it looks so Avatar'ish

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March 10, 2013 11:23:10 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


Looks good.      What's the latest on timing for the start of the beta?

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March 10, 2013 11:26:39 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Looking nice! I really like the new hero leveling screen and the news that you're going to look at the city leveling screen, too. Any chance you can make the city leveling screen similar to the hero one (so we can see what we selected previous times we leveled, etc)? It might be interesting to consider an overhauled city leveling system entirely, with it more like the hero system than it is now (with 'skill' trees, etc).

 

Anyways, looking good so far.

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March 11, 2013 1:23:17 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Since you mentioned that you were considering replacing Governor with something else, would you consider adding a second magic-specialized class? Warriors, Defenders, and Assassins are all essentially mundane combat classes, the Governor is a mundane non-combat class, and in Fallen Enchantress Warrior and Defender cover the role of an army leader fairly well, while Mages are the only class specifically for magic users. Mages are 'efficient' spellcasters - their spells cost less to cast, but aren't any more powerful than spells cast by anyone else until you start gaining the Evoker traits. Could we have 'powerful' spellcasters, whose spells are more powerful (such as haste providing one more initiative, or Flame Dart dealing three fire damage per level rather than two) at the cost of increased mana use? A summoner whose summons are always at his/her level plus the summon ability bonuses (level with summoner rather than normal experience gain)? A curses and blessings specialist whose blessings and curses last longer or are more powerful or more likely to stick to resistant targets?

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March 11, 2013 1:25:03 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

1) Please go that Civ 5 route and force you to do something.  (around 16.5 min mark)

 

2) Do monuments no longer expand ZoC of cities?   Was getting mad you didn't use that. (31 min)

 

3) I really want to see a race that is vuln fire resist cold.  ( a retooled urxen)

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March 11, 2013 1:54:39 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Great vid thanks, looking forward to the beta.

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March 11, 2013 4:59:54 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Thanks for the video! I am really excited about the leveling system for heroes. I hope this gets a lot of love. The more fun options, the better.

 

I know many players think that the sovereign should be stronger (and better at magic) compared to normal heroes. In regards to this, I would like to suggest that the sovereign be the only unit that can choose schools of magic and get access to lots of spells. I think other heroes should be able to choose individual spells based on base class, and unit lore. This lets the sovereigns really stand out. Tying certain special abilities to the sovereign's job could also be interesting.

 

In regards to Governor, I believe the Defender already acts as a general (maybe you should rename and refocus them?); they get a lot of army boosting effects. Governor definitely needs to change, as it is currently the weakest choice due to the difficulty of leveling them. A second magic class, as mentioned by Joeball, would be nice. We are supposed to be great mages; it would be nice to have more option that specialize to that end.

 

I had no idea that encumbrance effected a units speed. I thought it was merely a limit for the equipment that could use. Could you include speed/initiative changes in the item description when equiping? I think that would really clear that issue up, and make equipment choices easier.

 

Lastly, I am really hoping you guys find a satisfactory solution to settler spam. That is still the most frustrating aspect of the game. Using population helps, but it doesn't change that fact that in order to claim land you need a lot of outposts. You might want to fool around with increased city/settlement radius, and having city-settling land better controlled and placed on the map.

For example, I think that when you settle cities, all of the settle-able tiles near that group should be used up. It really bothers me when I settle a city, and there is still a settle-able tile nearby. I feel obligated to expand there so the AI does not settle right next to me.

 

Edit: The problem you had with settling between three different spots at 32:00 in the video is exactly what I mean. You laughed it off, but you still sounded frustrated. I feel the same way. It is very, very frustrating to know that the enemy could walk right up to your city and take a resource that is so close to your territory. Some people could argue "Making that choice is part of the strategy!" Right, I suppose it could be, but it doesn't change the fact that it is a frustrating and un-fun part of the game. I LIKE having my little corner of the map. Increasing city radius would be very helpful. I should not have to surround each city with outposts, just so they are connected. At the very least, a sovereign trait that makes starting cities have a radius two or three tiles wider would be nice.

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March 11, 2013 5:11:06 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Why not create an outpost creating unit that is fairly cheap, and make pioneers only for settling new cities?

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March 11, 2013 5:14:43 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Because spamming outposts is the problem, and making it easier to create more of them would not help. Fewer, but more effective and costly outposts would be better. It would also create more clear-cut targets for war.

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March 11, 2013 5:15:21 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Naidrev,
I had no idea that encumbrance effected a units speed. I thought it was merely a limit for the equipment that could use. Could you include speed/initiative changes in the item description when equipping  I think that would really clear that issue up, and make equipment choices easier.

In the current build of the released game, if you hover over your encumbrance bar it will give you this information. Also, when you are equipping items and you add equipment that puts you over one of the thresholds your initiative score will change as well. Basically 40%, 80% are the points that divide between low medium and heavy encumbered. Generally most units start with 30 before you add skills like strength. 

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March 11, 2013 5:15:58 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Are you going to tweak casting times now that combats are faster? Spells with casting times are pretty difficult to use already, unless you go for huge initiative.

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March 11, 2013 7:22:44 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Illauna,

- A continue move button that like in Endless Space, so all units that already have a waypoint set will move towards their waypoint when you click this button or hotkey. This would be a huge quality of life improvement and it should take minimal coding time. This basically would run the continue movement portion of end turn. 

- if you attack a unit and no defending stack remains the attacker should claim the empty square


This. Addresses very frequent and annoying mundane tasks required to play the current build.

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March 11, 2013 7:39:45 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


Yep, if you go with this idea please make a button. I loaded up Master of Magic and forgot that at the start of the turn it moves all your units. I just lost a city because of it. Damn you Horus! Oh Phantom Warriors are still a PITA.

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March 11, 2013 9:36:36 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Swarm does seem a little overpowered now.

All the things you mentioned such as the lack of information (tool tip) when it comes to the trait screen as well as world objects should be addressed.

*It also looks like Kraxis doesn't have anything new yet.

*Is the flame tongue ability a racial or unique to the hero? If it's a racial it's not very good.

*Overall the graphics look much better than vanilla FE.

Edit: while on the topic of racials i believe something needs to be done for racials such as fortify and berserk. Early on fortify could help in Vanilla FE but now it's useless since melee units are right on top of eachother. my suggestion is to make fortify not count as your action for turn meaning as soon as you cast it your character can perform an additional action or maybe make it so fortify automatically puts the fortified unit in defense position.

Berserk is simply awful beyond useless my suggestion is to remove it and add "+3 Attack power" to the racial trait. 

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March 11, 2013 10:24:20 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Swarm doesn't literally let multiple units attack at their full value.  The actual effect is that swarm reduces the defense of the target unit (due to being occupied by the other units). 

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March 11, 2013 10:50:58 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The game looks beautiful!  I am really happy with the hero recruitment and the tactical battles seem better (though clearly the game need a better UI clue for when a unit has ranged attack -- how frustrating it was watching you end-turn on your fire-mage).

Is it too late to make a common-sense UI suggestion?  Watching your play-through, there's an issue with flavor text dialogs breaking the flow of the game.  Flavor texts are important to establishing the lore and encouraging immersion, but they should be able to do so unobtrusively.  If they interrupt the game for meaningless decisions they're not providing immersion.

The first (and most egregious) is the book at the start of the game.  It's just a total waste of time.  And confusing to boot.  I think we can read the flavor text on the sov's details page, so why force a modal dialog on the user at the start of the game?  Take it out!  Get us playing, not reading.

Another bad flavor text moment is the goodie huts.  You get a OK dialog with something meaningless like "There's nothing here, but this one thing."  OK, it's a goodie hut, I know that already.  Clicking OK brings up another dialog with the thing you get and more flavor text (which doesn't actually describe what the thing does) and the awkward Use/Trade/OK options. 

I recognize that it's important to inform the user of what's going on, but these interactions are needlessly awkward.  Dialog-itis!  The frustrating part (for me) is that you don't need them.  You have a really terrific notifications system already in the game.

So my recommendation is that you try to get rid of all the modal dialogs that don't present an actual choice and replace them with notifications.  (In this case "Strike the Earth!"  or "Item found").

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March 11, 2013 10:59:32 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting sweatyboatman,
The game looks beautiful!  I am really happy with the hero recruitment and the tactical battles seem better (though clearly the game need a better UI clue for when a unit has ranged attack -- how frustrating it was watching you end-turn on your fire-mage).

Is it too late to make a common-sense UI suggestion?  Watching your play-through, there's an issue with flavor text dialogs breaking the flow of the game.  Flavor texts are important to establishing the lore and encouraging immersion, but they should be able to do so unobtrusively.  If they interrupt the game for meaningless decisions they're not providing immersion.

The first (and most egregious) is the book at the start of the game.  It's just a total waste of time.  And confusing to boot.  I think we can read the flavor text on the sov's details page, so why force a modal dialog on the user at the start of the game?  Take it out!  Get us playing, not reading.

Another bad flavor text moment is the goodie huts.  You get a OK dialog with something meaningless like "There's nothing here, but this one thing."  OK, it's a goodie hut, I know that already.  Clicking OK brings up another dialog with the thing you get and more flavor text (which doesn't actually describe what the thing does) and the awkward Use/Trade/OK options. 

I recognize that it's important to inform the user of what's going on, but these interactions are needlessly awkward.  Dialog-itis!  The frustrating part (for me) is that you don't need them.  You have a really terrific notifications system already in the game.

So my recommendation is that you try to get rid of all the modal dialogs that don't present an actual choice and replace them with notifications.  (In this case "Strike the Earth!"  or "Item found").

Umm, no. I enjoy reading these

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March 11, 2013 11:07:28 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Illauna,

Umm, no. I enjoy reading these

And you would still be able to read them.  Whenever you want.  Because they would be notifications, not modal dialogs that force you to read RIGHT NOW.

But if you watch Frogboy play you can actually see (and hear in his speaking) the awkward effect of these dialogs.  They totally break his concentration and knock him out of the game.  He's not reading them (because he already knows what they say) and just clicks through as quickly as possible.  The point is frogboy has a plan for the next couple moves and the game interrupts that plan with inconsequential modal dialogs.

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March 11, 2013 11:33:56 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting sweatyboatman,
The game looks beautiful!  I am really happy with the hero recruitment and the tactical battles seem better (though clearly the game need a better UI clue for when a unit has ranged attack -- how frustrating it was watching you end-turn on your fire-mage).

Is it too late to make a common-sense UI suggestion?  Watching your play-through, there's an issue with flavor text dialogs breaking the flow of the game.  Flavor texts are important to establishing the lore and encouraging immersion, but they should be able to do so unobtrusively.  If they interrupt the game for meaningless decisions they're not providing immersion.

The first (and most egregious) is the book at the start of the game.  It's just a total waste of time.  And confusing to boot.  I think we can read the flavor text on the sov's details page, so why force a modal dialog on the user at the start of the game?  Take it out!  Get us playing, not reading.

Another bad flavor text moment is the goodie huts.  You get a OK dialog with something meaningless like "There's nothing here, but this one thing."  OK, it's a goodie hut, I know that already.  Clicking OK brings up another dialog with the thing you get and more flavor text (which doesn't actually describe what the thing does) and the awkward Use/Trade/OK options. 

I recognize that it's important to inform the user of what's going on, but these interactions are needlessly awkward.  Dialog-itis!  The frustrating part (for me) is that you don't need them.  You have a really terrific notifications system already in the game.

So my recommendation is that you try to get rid of all the modal dialogs that don't present an actual choice and replace them with notifications.  (In this case "Strike the Earth!"  or "Item found").

I too enjoy reading these in their current pop-up form.

I noticed in the vid that the injury the one champion obtained (the ear), the was no longer a pop-up for that announcement. I think that detracts from the RPG element. The pop-up should stil be there.

imo, there should be even more rpg pop-ups and cutscenes along the way.

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March 11, 2013 11:44:37 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Nichtganz,


*Is the flame tongue ability a racial or unique to the hero? If it's a racial it's not very good end game it can do good damage but it seems thrown in.

I noticed in the tool tip that it is 2 dmg per level.  That would be, what, 20 damage at level 10?  I agree, not great at all.  However, what if it was made true damage or something, where resist doesn't affect it, or like a spear, where it penetrates 66% of the resist?

 

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March 11, 2013 11:57:22 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Since Lairs seems to be more relevant and important now, what about making them have their own ZoC? (Mini Wildlands) That means you can't build stuff next to them, and if it overlaps with any outposts etc. they still keep it 1 square around them. (by default, dragons etc. could have bigger ones)

I think that would solve lots of stupid stuff the AI does, and give a more predictable game. It would also make it possible to design maps where you need to clear lairs to get resources etc. 

Other than that, fun video.. though I *slightly* disagree with your choices

 

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March 11, 2013 12:01:48 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I second sweatyboatman's dialogue suggestions, especially that "far beneath the withered... blah" at the beginning of the game.  I have NEVER been able to get my custom sov/faction text to show up in that window ever.  Ditch it.

 

Other thoughts:

 Instead of the equip/trade/ok screen can we just have the sov/hero inventory screen with scrolling arrows for multiple heroes in a stack and the ability to assign the item right away?  I noticed you forgot to equip the poison vial to your sov when you first found it.

 

The Fame icon should be in the popup with the lair cleared message: +1 Fame (symbol).  I hope there are fame multipliers for epic city battles or sov/sov battles.  Or victory against great odds.

 

Also, could we at least get a figure outline/paper doll for our heroes/sovs for item equippage?  ala HOMM3?  A little more intuitive and fun.

 

You never built on the shards within your ZOC throughout the demo, could the yellow turn button be expanded to prompt you about undeveloped resources in your ZOC?  Please make this available ESPECIALLY when you unlock the NECESSARY tech for an initial build or an upgrade.

 

I lol'd at the ctrl-n at the beginning with the essence-less start.  A special capitol building that gives +1 essence per level would go a long way to making the capitol special and fun.  Or use the governor traits mod from Emmagine and the unit traits from Dsraider to spice up the cities and the unit abilities.

Can we snake a tile or too as the city grows like Parrotmath's mod?

 

The tactical battles look awesome!  Love the new mechanics.  Agree with Nichtganz as to the "casting" of special abilities at the start of combat.

Would love to see a special morale ability that occasionally gives a unit two moves in a row.  Or make it monster only 

 

Please give me the choice of ALL basic weapons at game start and let me improve them with research.  Crude/Basic/Advanced/Masterwork or something like that.  The Armor techs over time make more sense, but the weapons restrictions are silly.

 

Give trained units a bonus trait every 5 levels or so to make them more interesting/deadly/usable as the game progresses.  Fix the Upgrade system to be more consistent  (i.e robes vs. leather breastplate, one needs crystal, the other doesn't).  Or make it available as a default option.  

 

Definitely develop a summoner path and give summoners access to special units no other sov can get based on different magic types.  Joeball123 has good ideas above.

 

One other fun idea ala Magnar's slaver trait.  If I defeat a settler unit, my nearest settlement should get a +30 pop bonus.  

Keep it up, you guys and gals are making me drool!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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