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Creationism & Hubble

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Creationism & Hubble

from JoeUser Forums

Creationists must go ballistic when reports of Hubble’s peering back into time approaching 14 billion years.

Is it a matter of human ego that the universe was created by a Judea-Christian God? Surely, the believer of the Big Bang must feel hurt that he has not been graced by the will of God. For where lies the satisfaction whose beginnings is a mere piece of erratic stardust?

Copyright © 2004 Richard R. Kennedy All rights reserved. Revised: December 13, 2004.

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religion
5,419 views 45 replies
Reply #26 from JoeUser Forums Top
Perhaps only to collapse upon itself and begin again?


No, what I mean is: If you drop dough onto a table, it will slowly spread out, pushing back the air that was already there. It is expanding into the air that surrounds it. If the universe is expanding, albeit in three dimensions, what is it expanding into?

IG
Reply #27 from JoeUser Forums Top

No, what I mean is: If you drop dough onto a table, it will slowly spread out, pushing back the air that was already there. It is expanding into the air that surrounds it. If the universe is expanding, albeit in three dimensions, what is it expanding into?

Well, by definition, it cant be expanding into anything since 'universe' means all. But I do understand your question, even if I have no idea of the answer.

Sins of a Solar Empire II
Reply #28 from JoeUser Forums Top
No, what I mean is: If you drop dough onto a table, it will slowly spread out, pushing back the air that was already there. It is expanding into the air that surrounds it. If the universe is expanding, albeit in three dimensions, what is it expanding into?


Very good question. But with all we know, we can as well talk about warp drive too. So far I know, humans have probed as far as first seconds of big bang physics but we know nothing about before. About the exterior of universe we know utterly nothing about. Since the border expands at approx light speed we will need to invent FTL drive first, then we can begin to probe the border of universe.
Reply #29 from JoeUser Forums Top
Why assume there's a border? Further, the before is equally infinitesimal and paradoxically needs no time except to explode from its speck of space.
Reply #30 from JoeUser Forums Top

Why assume there's a border? Further, the before is equally infinitesimal and paradoxically needs no time except to explode from its speck of space.


Well, if it's expanding, then that means it's not infinite, because how could something that's already everything grow into more than everything unless everything isn't everything?


It means the farther Science pushes back the boundaries of knowledge, there is always that thing that requires a belief. For in the end, I dont think Science can explain it all. just get to the root of the begining. And then what? You see, I am not a bible thumper, but I do believe in God. In the end, something came fiirst, and that is faith. For both religious people, and men of science. They never will find a source. For that is what faith is all about. So when they try to destroy (or subjugate) Christian faith, they wind up just going the faith route from a different angle.


Exactly! Science can only explain what humans can observe. When people say that science proves that God is real or God isn't real, it's not science. It's out of science's jurisdiction. Even if science had an actual theory on what came before the big bang, that still doesn't explain where that stuff came from and so on. Humans just can't understand some things and we need to accept that.

Reply #31 from JoeUser Forums Top
It's true that space and time are expanding but that doesn't preculude a universal dead void outside of the entire procession. Call it the mind of God, if you will.
Reply #32 from JoeUser Forums Top
Dunno, The thing we call 'space' may be infinite, but matter and energy ( actually same thing ) are not infinite, but a rapidly expanding sphere with origin of where the big bang happened. Dunno once again... Is it possible that there's one "real" universe with infinite of big bangs happening everywhere, but with unimaginable distance between them so we can only see one 'universe'?
Reply #33 from JoeUser Forums Top
consider the lowly mobius strip.
Reply #34 from JoeUser Forums Top

Well, if it's expanding, then that means it's not infinite, because how could something that's already everything grow into more than everything unless everything isn't everything?

Now that is a mouth full!  And insightful!  Have a cookie!

Reply #35 from JoeUser Forums Top

It's true that space and time are expanding but that doesn't preculude a universal dead void outside of the entire procession. Call it the mind of God, if you will.

Someone has gotten religion!

Reply #36 from JoeUser Forums Top
Not actually religion, more a metaphor. "God" is like "marriage", both of which have sundry meanings. One may refute God but not the term--it's a prevalent symbol. 
Reply #37 from JoeUser Forums Top

Not actually religion, more a metaphor. "God" is like "marriage", both of which have sundry meanings. One may refute God but not the term--it's a prevalent symbol.

That sounds kind of confusing, but if I make it out right, it indicates you are an agnostic.  Does not really matter, I liked your answer anyway.

Reply #38 from JoeUser Forums Top
Wow, that's a first!
Reply #39 from JoeUser Forums Top
In the last analysis, scientist who go so far as to attribute essense as "strings"--and no matter how far they extend the "everything" theory--it will never clear up the mystery of it all.
Reply #40 from JoeUser Forums Top
I would first like to say Creationism is not a theory as defined by Science. You cannot point to a book and say that is what it says in the Bible. You also cannot discuss these things without understanding very advanced Physics. First of all Space and Time are not separate. If you look at black holes for instance, you find that time slows down and inside one it stops. You cannot ask the question what happened before the big bang becuase time did not exist. Time itself was created at the Big Bang. Where everything came from cannot really be answered as yet. We will need very powerful accelearators to reproduce the conditions at the Big Bang. Also the fact that the universe is expanding and the rate is actually increasing not decreasing. So the concept of successive big bangs looks in doubt. The main thing however is science looks at the evidence and changes its theory based on it. You cannot start with a theory and look for evidence to support it. Or rather if you adopt this approach then you have to change your theory when the evidence no longer supports it. Please read some General Relativity and Quantum Theory before you attempt to answer some of these questions.
Reply #41 from JoeUser Forums Top
That's the question. Isn't it. what was there before the big bang, and if the universe is expanding, what is it expanding into?
A big balloon that will ineluctably burst[?] http://stevendedalus.joeuser.com/index.asp?AID=58967
Reply #42 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hubble has shown us some very awesome sights. It has also let us peer into the far reaches of space that (up until now) have been all but invisible to us on earth. we are still stuck in a study held into the restraints of time and space. Time that is still relative to the observer and space relative to the visible spectrum.

Is it a matter of human ego that the universe was created by a Judea-Christian God?


No less a matter of human ego than to believe that if we can't quanify it, or bring it into the parameters of our human senses, it doesn't exist.
Reply #43 from JoeUser Forums Top
Is it a matter of human ego that the universe was created by a Judea-Christian God?


No more a matter of human ego than believing that, if we can't quantify it, or bring it into the parameters of our human senses, it does not exist.
Reply #44 from JoeUser Forums Top
No more a matter of human ego than believing that, if we can't quantify it, or bring it into the parameters of our human senses, it does not exist.
Good point except for  equations that abstract reason beyond senses that nonetheless make "sense."
Reply #45 from JoeUser Forums Top
First of all you cannot say the universe started from nothing. This breaks the law of conservation of Energy. In any physical process energy must be conserved. There are certain quantum mechanical processes where energy can be borrowed for a very short period of time, but it has to be returned. This is rather like a bank account. Bringing God into it does not really help. Who created God? If God has always existed why is the universe only 14 billlion years old. If there have been many versions of the universe, this does not make humans very special does it.