Idea forBrad/LH based on previous statements: One suggestion on the Steam issue.

Why do you need a DVD? A direct download link with a "upgrade from 1.3 whatever to 2.0+" would do the trick. 

Also, Steam isn't the devil

I for one would love to have a collector's edition copy of FE:LH on DVD, DRM free....well, whatever the final state of the game will be. I understand another expansion is on the way after LH...

Direct Download is okay but having the physical copy on disk is better. Yes, I know I can backup to disk on my own, but I love the flashy art of a custom collector's edition. Call it 'gamer's pride'.

I am sorry, but I will have to disagree with this request.  My Steam account works fine and I have no paranoia about Steam or need for a physical copy I would likely lose or damage anyway.

Please, Stardock and Brad, continue your migration into the twenty-first century style of game purchasing.  It is my personal perception that the anti-Steam percentage of gamers is loud but very much in the minority.  Also, it is shrinking steadily as time passes.  I have no need to convince anyone of whether they should use Steam, but I do not want you diverting any resources at all to accommodate people second guessing your already explained business decisions.

It is time for everyone to move on one way or another.  Please focus on game development rather than methods of delivery.

Please don't be so outright narrowminded.
While the anti-steam percentage certainly is loud, so is the pro-steam percentage.
And just because you like steam doesn't mean it doesn't have some obvious flaws, which a CD does not have (I am thinking about having an internet connection to install the game, and not needing to sometimes authenticate your program). I am not saying you should by the DVD, but coming in here with a negative attitude against people who really wants a physical CD for any reason just feels wrong to me, and slightly immature since you are meddling in other peoples business which have a tiny effect on you.
I like steam, I use it daily, it is extremely convenient because I always have access to my internet, but I also have trouble with it when my internet is wobbly, steam is like a caged wild monkey, give it a banana (internet) and it behaves calmly, but starve it and it rages in its cage...
Please understand I only wish to see all these discussions end.

Hmm, I suck at posting proper posts today .... Please read this message as if I said it in a friendly tone, it is meant as that, and if you want to disregard it, feel free!

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

I'm not saying this would replace Steam- this would be an option for the folks who distrust Steam down the pike.   I'm generally ok with Steam as a service personally, but many Stardock fans in particular as vehemently anti-DRM, as Stardock was the hero of the anti-DRM movement a few years back.

If you read my post, you would see that I saw reasons for Stardock to do what they did, but I just think they need to have a failsafe down the road (and by down the road I'm talking 4-5 patches at least into LH's release, so not until 2015 probably)

This is just a way to reassure those folks, at a fairly minimal cost down the road, and protection against Steam going under (like for example if the Steambox fails massively+ Valve scandal or some other combination)

Surely you understand that giving people the choice of not using steam is inherently Anti-steam. "If you don't use it and love it for all your games you are a paranoid steam hater who needs to get into the modern age"

Who cares if you are tying your games to an account based subscription which can be canceled for any reason at any time it'll never happen to valve.. its too big to fail. They are like the Lehman Brothers of gaming.. surely the government will bail them out if something ever goes wrong.

Plus In a house hold survey 99% of vacuum cleaners preferred steam, and only 1 in 10 forum posts I read on the interent hate it so I assume that sample size is statistically significant for me to say that only a very small amount of people are attempting to resist the assimilation. Plus They wrote on the internet that it was a very small amount of users so it must be true.. just like Gabe newells promise to remove all DRM from all steam games if steam ever goes under, I mean i read it on the internet.. so its like totally gotta be real.

Resistance is futile so just quit gaming now if you don't like steam since eventually that will be the only choice for PC games I for one welcome our new PC gaming  Overlords.

Did I cover all the usual bases quickly so this thread doesn't devolve into part 699300 of this discussion?

P.S. I'm all for choice but i doubt its going to happen... stardock has charted its path and steam is the navigator.

If Stardock thought it would be a good idea to do this, they would have done it.  I imagine they chose to go the steam route after some thought.

I'm all for Steam only for one simple reason. I wanted my free copy of FE to be a Steam key, but it wasn't. Now that the expansion is steam only, it's forcing them to give me one.

Paradox is another company that has switched to steam only, because they found out that while the anti-steam customers are loud, they make up a VERY small percentage of total users.

Bah I forgot to add the fake statistics based on nothing and to make sure everyone knows that my desires are so important that I would rather my choice be forced on everyone else rather than to be given the option to choose what I want.. My bad. Fixed 

If i forgot any of the other usual inane back and forth in this.. I no longer care..

Steamworks requires Steam.  We're not using any DRM features of it.

The problem with Steamworks remains the same I used to discuss in the Impulse::Reactor days -- to use the very useful libraries of Steamworks you have to include Steam. 

Unfortunately, GameStop didn't carry forward our work on Impulse::Reactor (which is a shame because it had features at the prototype level that still aren't in Steamworks) and we no longer have the ability to develop those features internally (that talent went to Dallas).

But we need these features.  Even Galactic Civilizations I (2003) allowed us to have global high scores and that kind of thing. Players expect this kind of thing now as basic features.

Incidentally, we are hiring.

I see your point, though I think the folks who really strongly distrust Steam, will tend to be folks who don't care about those "basic features".

I also agree that the actual true Steam-haters are a tiny minority.  Again,, I'm not opposed to this move, I'm just a little wary of too much power with one company- we've seen them mess things up recently (Greenlight)   I just hope Stardock has a failsafe in case they outlast Valve as a company.  I'd probably never need such a feature, I think it's a safe bet that when Stardock or Valve ever get into trouble, we'd be on GalCiv 5 or 6 at least.

If you are using Steamworks features, I'd like to see mod installation handled through Steam, would like to see it handled like Civ V.

without atleast outlining WHY you are FORCING steam on us, we (the non-steamers) WILL resist.

btw even though I do have rebellion, I have NOT played it in approx 4 months partly due to the steam shit and partly due to it feeling boring

harpo

Oh if only you weren't in Michigan...

Achievements are a big thing.  Getting mod support (if not in LH, in whatever comes later) started is a big thing. Getting cloud saves going is something we'd like to see. Getting a cloud high score list would be a cool thing. Setting things up so that unit designs can be more easily shared would be nice.

How much will make it into the release I have no idea. But these are a few of the things that a steamworks version opens up to us.

are these things important?... I must be getting old

(I am in no way contesting your decision, but I actually thought it was for the modding tools the workshop provided in its entirety).
Anyhow, it sounds like a great idea to easily share unit designs... If it can get to work more easily
(Like the AI automatically leeching 2-3 new unit designs for use in a single game from the steam-cloud, just to catch the player off guard).

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

For the sake of clarity (and since it was assumed before):

Do you actually get a better cut from your sales there, by making the game Steam-only?

Cloud Saves would be useful for me- but I think I'm in a small minority on that.

I switched to steam when impulse was sold. I have close to 60 games on steam and have never had a problem. I play offline most of the time but my minor sons prefer online for scores and chat. Now steam is also helping the smaller game developers with greenlight.  Steam is not evil, it is a platform that has done a lot of good for pc gaming.

Stardock has already said they are using it, how many times can the same people come in here and complain. Jeesh let it go, they know some of you are upset but it seems like steamworks is something they want to make available to their customers.  having steam run offline in the background while you are playing does nothing to your performance. I would imagine auto updating is the best thing for 90% or more of gamers, I know I like it. Log online once a week or if you know of an update and play offline the rest of the time.

We'll never stop complaining.  Steam is a DRM platform that severely restricts what a player can do with the games that he or she purchased.

1.  You can't loan a game to a friend.

2.  You can't resell a game, or trade it in for credit at a store like Game Stop.

3.  At any time and for any reason, Valve can close your account.  Yes, it happens.

4.  At some time in the future, Valve might go under.  Then what?

5.  Steam does not allow you to play previous patch versions or to keep multiple versions installed.

6.  Sometimes, "offline mode" breaks and Steam insists on connecting to the Internet.  That really sucks when you can't connect.

And in return, what do we get?  Achievements?  Digital downloads?  Cloud saves?  A place to download mods?  These are all things that many developers offered before Steam and there's no reason that they can't continue to do so.  Frogboy can claim that they aren't using the DRM features, but Steam itself is the DRM.  You can't play a Steam game without Steam.

We might not be able to convince Stardock to change their plans.  They waited until beta was almost ready to tell us about this change (not cool), so it's probably too late to do anything about it.  But we'll continue to make sure that Stardock and any other developers watching know how much we don't like Steam.  Steam doesn't prevent piracy, it restricts what players can do with their purchases, and it offers nothing that didn't already exist.

And I, for one, would gladly take a DVD or digital copy of the game without all of the Steamworks features over one that relied on Steam and I'd pay the same price for it, too.

Of those complaints 1-2 already apply to Stardock store purchases, and you can't buy FE at retail.

3 was changed to where they don't brick your games at least.  MP you're boned, but being non-Steam doesn't mean the service you're using instead can't bone you instead.

4 is something we'd have years of warning, and I suspect Stardock would do something in that case.  Valve's not going under anytime soon.

5 is a problem sometimes

6 is a legit problem, but one Stardock could solve by allowing the .exe to run without Steam if needed like Paradox does.  That one would be on Stardock.   Steam could solve this problem by actually spending money on making Steam more reliable in this area.  This is my biggest criticism of Steam.

my real issue with Steam is more of a market power issue and the potential Valve has to be evil.  They haven't done it yet, but companies can go from good to evil on a switch.

Will I be able to maintain a mod of my own (private mod) without Steam trying to erase it because it is not in steamworks?

I was thinking the same thing. None of those things interest me....with possible exception to mod support...but that's what the community is for.

You can.

In Response to Kwami;

1 and 2:   Well honestly, do you think complaining to a developer that you don't want a steam version so you can loan it out and then resell it is going to help with your cause.

3.  I really don't see that legally happening.

4. Probably more likely you will lose or damage the original dvds than being unable to get your digital copy.

5. Sounds like a legitamate concern, but probably effects a very small minority of players.

6. I have never had offline mode break, not saying it hasen't happened though.

I can only speak for what i feel i get in return:  Extremely convenient way to purchase a game, ease of install and updating, great sales, availability to games you would have a difficult time finding without steam, then the kids like the achievements, chat and other features.

I personally hate messing around with a physical copy of a game. I upgrade my system a couple times a year (then pass on my stuff to the kids), and it is much easier to make a few clicks on steam or gog and presto my games are back.

I would think it would cost stardock additional money to create a physical copy that doesn't require steam, then ongoing update costs, for a small amount of sales.  So if enough of you would get together and pay and extra 50-100 bucks or so for the game they may do it.

Everyone has a right to complain. But i know i come to these boards to find advice and info on the game i enjoy playing. It really is disconcerting to see alot of the threads hijacked into steam bashing and mostly by a small group of people ( i can't imagine how deflating it is for the devs to come here and read it when they are posting about some news on their game).  Complain a couple times in the appropriate thread and move on with your life.

That's basically 'Conform to or go away, we don't want your business.'

Sorry, but that's a great way to send customers packing.  I was on the fence really until a guy over on GalCiv II forums found that he has to use Steam to download and update his game.  Me, I have to use GameStop and I don't even want to go into why I hate that platform so much.

I use Steam but I think it is an abberant load of poo and I only got it because Terror from the Deep was going cheap, and then, joy of joys, I kept on using it because my games need it to run.  Is this where PC games are going?  Really?

There you go.  We're not as shrunk as you'd like to think.