[Beta5] 101 Balance Issues (Long)

In the spirit of the upcoming Beta5 feature lock and focus on Balance I have decided to make 1 mega thread about all the balance issues I have come across in my many many Fallen Enchantress games.

 

Balance Issues

-Ice Elementals are still so weak they are pointless to summon.

-One Handed Blunt Weapons seem too weak because of their heavy weight and the -4 initiative penalty. Maybe reduce it to -2. With their heavy weight you almost always get -2 or -4 because of encumbrance anyway.

-The Monk's robe is seriously OP. Please remove the +2 initiative boost. It makes these robes an absolute must for all ranged units. The weightless armor is good enough. If you want to you could add a dodge bonus instead.

-The Binding faction trait seems very unbalanced. You can get the bound elementals too fast and they are fairly useless even midgame. I suggest making it so Altars don't create them, you would have to upgrade them to shrines first. This will prevent players from spamming bound elementals super early and make them require some investment. I also suggest making the higher level shrine buildings produce higher level elementals, so that they remain relevant later in the game.

-Pretty much all the city enchantments seem very OP. They are super powerful and easy to cast even at the start of the game. Pretty much all of them could be nerfed by 50%. I would also like to see much higher mana costs so that they actually have opportunity costs and you can't always spam them at the very beginning of the game. The troop boosting enchantments are no exception.

-Why did you change Slaves to a racial bonus from a faction bonus, this makes absolutely no sense. They are not juggernauts, slaves are not genetic. Slaves Lords is still even a faction trait it simply no longer unlocks slaves. So now Quendar who are not Slave Lords still get slaves but say Trogs who are Slave Lords don't? Please change this back, it is a annoying and pointless limit on our ability to create custom factions. A similar if somewhat weaker argument could be made for Golems.

-The wealthy trait is somewhat ridiculous at 1000 gold. This allows you to build a lot of buildings instantly. Maybe reduce it to 500.

- Why does Enchanters only grant a high end lightning staff but no early game one and no rings or amulets. This makes the lightning staff pretty pointless.

-Units gain too much hp from leveling. Every level they get a 50% boost. That's ridiculous. It's easy to get high level units with 4 times the base hp! Since humans are much better at leveling units this puts the AI at a serious disadvantage. After a certain point the AI has no chance of killing my units. Please reduce the hp bonus to say +2 per level and then reduce the -1hp per level traits to -0.5.

-Wow are monsters ever weak. I can solo pretty much all of them except dragons with a single champion. All I do is walk up and autocalc for free loot. This also means that all the monsters players can get are totally weak and useless. Darklings might be useful in the first 25 turns but after that... At the same time of course their are those annoying dragons that are totally impossible to kill early game that can attack you just because the AI constantly builds right next to monsters. No thanks. There have been tons of suggestions to fix this and I lean towards removing the ability of lair guardians to move and just giving them ZoC you can't build in. The little monsters they spawn can do the attacking. That way the weaker monsters can get a much needed buff, in particular they need ranged attacks and more armor.

-Armor is another thing that seems unbalanced. It seems too powerful right now. Going up a armor level makes you pretty much invulnerable to all the lower tier weapons and monsters. The defense values granted by armor just seem too high. Even units in leather are 2-3 time tougher then unarmored units. This is especially bad when mixed with the high hp gain from levels.

- The unique units produced by certain factions like Iron Golems and Juggernauts also could use a boost late game so they stay useful. I think the easiest way to do this would be a simple unique belt item or trait that unlocks late game. That way you can boost their stats late game, and defense in particular, so they can compete with units in platemail late game. Right now they are designed as midgame units so they are useless late game, which is a waste. A similar system could be used for lair monsters like darklings and ogres, which also tier horribly and are useless.

-The outpost road tech takes to long to get. Fallen Enchantress has a lot of rough terrain and slow movement so we need to be able to produce roads quickly and early to compensate. I think roads should be an outpost upgrade instead of automatic from tech. I don't want roads running everywhere I want to be able to choose where. Also a respawn road button on cities and outposts would be nice because terrain can change.

-Earth magic is badly in need of a lv1 tactical spell.

-High level champions are hard to level, and yet the ones you can purchase usually have far fewer traits then they should considering their level. This is especially painful in regards to magic levels. Most only have lv2 magic. This makes them useless casters.

-All the unique wraith traits suck. The wraith blood ability is useless on troops and is only useful for champions early game. Please at least make it +3 hp per kill per unit, so that it is useful for stacks. Also whats with the +1 mana per kill trait? Officially the worst trait in the game.

-Random spellbooks are kinda odd. I don't mind them but they are kinda annoying because you never get the ones you want. The chances of you getting the right book, champion, and shards is pretty bad. The stars have to align... I like the idea of making them faction traits or possibly sovereign perks instead.

- Why do some city upgrade buildings for conclaves and towns boost troop production? Isn't this what forts are for? If other city types can build stronger troops why would you ever get forts?

-Fire Spells seem kinda weak very early game. Fire touch does 1 dmg to start... I think the minimum dmg should be 3 at least.

-Strategic Wither is really OP. It is unresistable and can significantly lower the attack of entire armies. It's fine cast from the tactical map where it takes time and can be resisted but the strategic version is really really OP.

-Blood Line traits are unbalanced. Trogs for example  get +20 strength and +1 attack, but other races like Quendar who get 50% fire resistance and cold vulnerability don't even qualify as buffs. Maybe give Quendar +1 initiative and make Trog units more expensive.

-As mentioned here the lack of consistent upgrade paths for some weapons makes them underpowered.

-The +4 initiative on swords and daggers is kinda OP. At max it should be +2. Any more and they become a must for casters and whatnot. Their low weight and counterattack can do the rest.You can always make them do more damage.

-Yithril's faction traits seem UP. Taken individually +1 level, Training tech, and Great Axes are nowhere near as good as say Enchanters, Heroic, Binding, or basically any of the more unique faction traits.

-Natural Leader seems OP. Even changing it from free champions to paying only 25% would make a big difference.

-Clay Pits seem OP. At +2 Materials they can double the production of a city. +1 would be more then enough. You could make a rare version that gives two called Marble or something but clay pits aren't that rare and I have ended up linking 2-3 to one city in order to triple it's production.

-It seems to be too easy to completely get rid of unrest. This is mostly because Townhalls and the Cleric line of improvements are very very powerful.  Not to mention there are spells and champions and many other ways to decrease it. The ability of basic improvements to reduce unrest should be diminished.

-The time it takes for champions to respawn is too short. Combined with the fact that champions can partake in defending cities even before they heal is very annoying. You end up fighting the same group of wounded champions over and over again as you take cities. Please fix it so champions don't join sieges until they are at full strength, or spawn at the Capital, or only 1 champion recovers at a time, or something.

-Champion armor costs a lot less research then plate armor.

...give me some time and I'm sure I can think up some more.

11,640 views 21 replies
Reply #1 Top


-Pretty much all the city enchantments seem very OP. They are super powerful and easy to cast even at the start of the game. Pretty much all of them could be nerfed by 50%. I would also like to see much higher mana costs so that they actually have opportunity costs and you can't always spam them at the very beginning of the game. The troop boosting enchantments are no exception.

-The wealthy trait is somewhat ridiculous at 1000 gold. This allows you to build a lot of buildings instantly. Maybe reduce it to 500.

-Fire Spells seem kinda weak very early game. Fire touch does 1 dmg to start... I think the minimum dmg should be 3 at least.
End of quote

I think the power of the city enhancements is very good, because they are limited by the essence of the city, but, as you suggested, the mana cost should be increased.

The wealthy trait should give the Sovereign 800 gildar.

Many spells are weak before you get the path of the mage and the fire spells are the worst. That is the reason why i suggested in another thread that the base effect of the spells should be increased and the shard bonus reduced.

Reply #2 Top

Yes, do not make city enhancements less powerful. They are limited by essence. I wouldn't mind making them more expensive to cast though. Other points you make are good, especially with the binding trait (those elementals are useless)

Reply #3 Top

Quoting BlackRainZ, reply 2
Yes, do not make city enhancements less powerful. They are limited by essence. I wouldn't mind making them more expensive to cast though. Other points you make are good, especially with the binding trait (those elementals are useless)
End of BlackRainZ's quote

The problem is that most of them get more powerful the more essence you get. With Oracles and Pools 3 essence isn't that rare.  Thus by using one essence spot you can get +6 initiative, +3 grain, +15 production, +75% food, +3 research, or say +3 growth early game. These bonuses are much better then any early game building and you can grab 3 of them. If you have essence you don't even really need food since on a spot with 3 essence you can get 5 food just from spells. A lot of these spells are just too powerful for the extreme early game or make other resources completely pointless.

Reply #4 Top

Quoting DsRaider, reply 3
Quoting BlackRainZ, reply 2Yes, do not make city enhancements less powerful. They are limited by essence. I wouldn't mind making them more expensive to cast though. Other points you make are good, especially with the binding trait (those elementals are useless)

The problem is that most of them get more powerful the more essence you get. With Oracles and Pools 3 essence isn't that rare.  Thus by using one essence spot you can get +6 initiative, +3 grain, +15 production, +75% food, +3 research, or say +3 growth early game. These bonuses are much better then any early game building and you can grab 3 of them. If you have essence you don't even really need food since on a spot with 3 essence you can get 5 food just from spells. A lot of these spells are just too powerful for the extreme early game or make other resources completely pointless.
End of DsRaider's quote

 

So what you're saying is they should require something like spell level 2+ to unlock instead of given for free at the start.  OR those spells put on the magic tech tree, say 2nd tier. 

 

Reply #5 Top

Essence is OP. It's easy enough to get 3 or even 4 essence and essence gets almost exponentially better as you get not only more powerful spells  but more spells. Id say they just need some balance though. I like essence but its too important and random, a bad combination.

Don't forget the essence conclave buildings. One of which gives a material, a mana and a research point per Essence.

-Random spellbooks are kinda odd. I don't mind them but they are kinda annoying because you never get the ones you want. The chances of you getting the right book, champion, and shards is pretty bad. The stars have to align... I like the idea of making them faction traits or possibly sovereign perks instead.
End of quote

Too much random is terrible.

-The +4 initiative on swords and daggers is kinda OP. At max it should be +2. Any more and they become a must for casters and whatnot. Their low weight and counterattack can do the rest.You can always make them do more damage.
End of quote
Yes

-High level champions are hard to level, and yet the ones you can purchase usually have far fewer traits then they should considering their level. This is especially painful in regards to magic levels. Most only have lv2 magic. This makes them useless casters.
End of quote
Really champion should always have more traits than thier level.

-Strategic Wither is really OP. It is unresistable and can significantly lower the attack of entire armies. It's fine cast from the tactical map where it takes time and can be resisted but the strategic version is really really OP.
End of quote

The unlimited range allows you to spam wither anywhere on the map as long as you have mana. With enough mana and a couple shards its a win button.

-Blood Line traits are unbalanced. Trogs for example get +20 strength and +1 attack, but other races like Quendar who get 50% fire resistance and cold vulnerability don't even qualify as buffs. Maybe give Quendar +1 initiative and make Trog units more expensive.
End of quote

I find blood line traits very odd. They need to be balanced for custom factions and made comparable to eachother. More basic stat modifications would be welcome.

-Clay Pits seem OP. At +2 Materials they can double the production of a city. +1 would be more then enough. You could make a rare version that gives two called Marble or something but clay pits aren't that rare and I have ended up linking 2-3 to one city in order to triple it's production.
End of quote

Agree. Its not rare for a city to get 2 clay pits, essentially doubling production. Too much randomness.

Reply #6 Top

Quoting Supreme, reply 5
So what you're saying is they should require something like spell level 2+ to unlock instead of given for free at the start. OR those spells put on the magic tech tree, say 2nd tier.
End of Supreme's quote

Well higher trait prerequisites and mana costs would be a nice start. The main problem however is the whole per essence thing. Their effects really shouldn't be multiplied per essence, or if they are there should be a upfront and a multiplicative part. Instead of +5 production per essence  it should be 3 + 2 production per essence. 1 essence already gives you a whole new enchantment it doesn't need to make every other enchantment way stronger as well. I would also prefer a system that grows in strength over time more instead of one that is so up front, and thus so super important early game. Say if the enchantment were multiplied by city level instead of essence.  Also some Natures Bounty are just OP period, it allows essence to completely replace grain.

Reply #7 Top

I still disagree. I like the per essence aspect of the spells. As long as the AI can use them as well I don't see what is bad about them. I don't mind some changes here and there to it but I do not think it is OP and it is not that easy to get 3 or 4 essence. In most maps I see, if any essence, just 1 or 2. Yes, given Pariden can build a building that gives an essence and there is the oracle which gives an essence but by that time it is later in the game. I don't know, I like it.

Reply #8 Top

I love essence and I like that it is useful.

However I agree it is a bit too powerful at present and this is almost entirely from the fact that so many enchantments scale with quantity of essence. Of course the number of enchantments you can have also scales with essence. This means that there is square affect going on where a city with 4 essence can get about 16 times the benefit that a city with one essence.

This needs to be scaled back so that it is closer to linear. I think most enchantments should give a flat bonus or maybe a two tier bonus to make them a little more interesting (eg 2 grain for 1-3 essence, 3 grain for 4+) if it is feasible from a coding perspective.

Reply #9 Top

With the current balance, Essence is too good. Conclaves can abuse it to perform just as well as a town with no Essence. Forts take a long time to become equal to the other choices as well. All this combined with the fact that all specializations do about the same research makes specialization less than it's maximum potential.

Idea for balance:

Towns should be good at growth and gildar.

Conclave should be good at research and mana.

Fortresses should be good at producing troops and making them elite.

 

I am not seeing this come into focus yet. Admittedly the dev team had some major technical hurdles to climb from .95 to .951. I hope we see some focus on making these descriptions we are given become a reality soon. For now I will enjoy being able to finish a game and not worry about saves.

Reply #10 Top

Quoting Stupidity10, reply 6
Don't forget the essence conclave buildings. One of which gives a material, a mana and a research point per Essence.
End of Stupidity10's quote

Which are currently bugged, if the city has more than 1 Essence.

Reply #11 Top

Quoting seanw3, reply 10
With the current balance, Essence is too good.
End of seanw3's quote

Agreed. Although I like the idea of Essence being more powerful/useful than grain and materials, we're talking about way too much of a difference once you get to 3 or 4 essence.


Quoting seanw3, reply 10
Idea for balance:

Towns should be good at growth and gildar.

Conclave should be good at research and mana.

Fortresses should be good at producing troops and making them elite.
End of seanw3's quote

Agreed.

I stuffed up a bit in my current game by not making any really great settle locations into Fortresses but even so I'm finding them pretty underwhelming. I like that they can get good reductions to training time and the troops produced have decent bonuses but I'm finding that their general production is too weak to actually BUILD the fancy buildings like barracks etc. Bit of a catch 22, without decent production you can't build the buildings which would allow you to recruit troops quickly from a mediocre productive base.

I think Fortresses need to have an affordable building that increases their materials by one (or even two late game) so that they can manage to build their troop producing buildings early enough to be able to spend some time producing troops before the game is over!

 

Reply #12 Top

-Blood Line traits are unbalanced. Trogs for example get +20 strength and +1 attack, but other races like Quendar who get 50% fire resistance and cold vulnerability don't even qualify as buffs. Maybe give Quendar +1 initiative and make Trog units more expensive.
End of quote

Personally think that the Quendar could just get the 50% fire resistance with no downside - fire weapons and spells are pretty common so this would be a noticeable benefit.

Ice Elementals are still so weak they are pointless to summon.
End of quote

Yeah, would be nice if they were more comparable to Fire Elementals. 3 move (so they can keep up with a mounted sovereign and not get left behind - I can see why a stone elemental would be slow, but not necessarily a water/ice one) and increased attack or an offensive spell to go with slow would be neat - or a "mass slow" spell at the start of battle, like the autocast mass curse that one hero has.

-Earth magic is badly in need of a lv1 tactical spell.
End of quote

Yes, why not the same one Altar henchmen can get (although that's pretty weak). Or something more interesting - an early interrupt/knock-down type spell?

On the subject of Earth magic, the Earth/Life summon creature spell could be cheaper or summon a stronger beastie, especially as it's one of the earlier offensive spells available in those schools and is kind of neat in principle but unusable in practice.

-Pretty much all the city enchantments seem very OP. They are super powerful and easy to cast even at the start of the game. Pretty much all of them could be nerfed by 50%. I would also like to see much higher mana costs so that they actually have opportunity costs and you can't always spam them at the very beginning of the game. The troop boosting enchantments are no exception.
End of quote

Possibly the only point I don't agree with to at least some degree, since inspiration/enchanted hammers speed up the rather tedious early bit of city development & research. If anything I'd like more variety early game, so that inspiration wasn't such a no-brainer: an early troop buff for people and Troggs who want to get to the fighting quickly, or a way of quelling unrest, or raising cash quicker, or increasing growth rate, or accruing influence quickly (hi, Kraxis!). Not such a fan of nerfing but always like new features.

 

Reply #13 Top


Yes, please make enchantments more expensive. 20 mana for enchanted hammers, 5 for inspiration.... it's just rediculous low, and rather nobrainer. Worth alot more the using that same mana to cast some early battle spells instead for some easy early wins, grabbing an earlier artifact and get the leveling going abit earlier.

Perhaps bring back maintainance for city enchantments, or at least make them abit more expensive to cast. At least doubble it, so you'll have to use all starting mana for enchanted hammers. That would hurt abit more taking that decission.

 

When it comes to Fortress cities I'd welcome beefing them up a little on the unit quality side. On the other side I'd like all cities to be able to build walls, but with better versions for each wall in a Fortress city.

 

Other then that I find archery abit overpowered, especially if you choose an early bow for your sovereign. It might have abit to do with the AI at the moment, often taking small steps even if you only use range (or the strongest unit of yours is range). You being avble to retreat and then shoot makes killing the early monsters a walk in the park. I'd like to see range penalties, or weaker effect on the shots if you are too far away from targets. Perhaps also

Reply #14 Top

Quoting MisterAedan, reply 13
Yes, why not the same one Altar henchmen can get (although that's pretty weak). Or something more interesting - an early interrupt/knock-down type spell?
End of MisterAedan's quote

I like this idea. If the spell hits it knocks down as well as doing damage, but if it is blocked it only does the half damage.

Quoting Mistwraithe, reply 12
I stuffed up a bit in my current game by not making any really great settle locations into Fortresses but even so I'm finding them pretty underwhelming.
End of Mistwraithe's quote

Ya fortresses are the weakest by far. They have the lowest growth and produce the least resources. The high level troops are nice but even then there are strong troop boosting improvements for towns. They need to get rid of those.

Quoting seanw3, reply 10

Idea for balance:

Towns should be good at growth and gildar.

Conclave should be good at research and mana.

Fortresses should be good at producing troops and making them elite.

End of seanw3's quote

Pretty much, although you could add crystal to conclaves. Conclaves don't boost research enough right now. Towns seem about right but need to lose the buildings that don't fit them like the ones that boost troops, use essence, and boost research by %s. Forts seem to need a buff. I think mainly they need to be able to produce troops faster. Tougher is fine but some production boosting buildings or  cost reduction buildings would be nice. A cool fort building I thought of is the Parade Grounds. As long as the queue is empty it would grant experience to all troops within the city.

Reply #15 Top

Hopefully the devs balance with this in mind: when you take the edge off everything, and the game becomes dull.  Gamers will have no incentive to try other paths/options.  For example, if you take too much of the special power from essence, then it no longer becomes a resource to build around, to hunt for.  

Honest questions here: Why is it OP when everyone can use something (like essence) equally?  What would be gained by making it less worth having? The same can be said of meaningful city buffs that help you specialize your growth; assuming the AI can use them too (and I get every indication Brad means to optimize them once the features are locked), what makes them "too powerful"?

It's possibly better served to think in terms of adding edges to dull features rather than the "nerf" mentality where everything should be equally unimpressive.  For example, on par with heavy armor, you can add a supple leather line that adds dodge--more stuff to research, more decisions to make, rather than simply nerfing armor.  It's great that heavy armor forces the use of higher end weapons to damage it--it would be silly for a low tech weapon to be effective on armor that costs 50+ dedicated seasons to research (because then why would you even bother researching and using it?).

Have you guys who are calling stuff "seriously OP" played on Hard difficulty or higher?  There exists counters for everything you mention--it's just up to the AI to use those counters (and they do a bit more of that in the higher difficulties).  For example, monk robes aren't so great when faced with groups who can reach you in their first turn of movement--if you don't have armor to block for you, your ranged units are in trouble.  You have to use a much more balanced array to effectively whip the AI, and just putting monk robes on everyone won't cut it (in lower difficulties, I contend you can wipe out the AI wearing only your skivvies).

Reply #16 Top

Yes, it is often better to boost other less powerful things than to nerf more powerful things - as long as the most powerful things aren't already game-breaking.

Reply #17 Top

Quoting StevenAus, reply 17
Why is it OP when everyone can use something (like essence) equally?
End of StevenAus's quote

Essence is OP even if everyone can use it. Currently the AI does not see Essence when settling. It does not cast city enchantments. That is a problem somewhat solved by the new update. The problem with Essence being too powerful is that Grain and Materials become irrelevant, as do any city leveling options that have to compete with Essence. 4 Essence means you are doing 20 Production more than a Town or Fortress. You can do twice as much growth as a Town. You can get 4 extra Grain. And you still have one extra enchantment slot for specialization. Grain can't compete with Essence when Essence can make Grain. Towns can't compete with Conclaves when Conclaves can outgrow Towns. Fortresses can't compete with Conclaves when Conclaves can outproduce Fortresses. The really messed up thing is that Towns and Fortresses can compete with Conclaves most closely on research levels. Are you starting to see why the current Essence balance is a problem?

Reply #18 Top

Quoting seanw3, reply 18

Quoting StevenAus, reply 17 Why is it OP when everyone can use something (like essence) equally?

Essence is OP even if everyone can use it. Currently the AI does not see Essence when settling. It does not cast city enchantments. That is a problem somewhat solved by the new update. The problem with Essence being too powerful is that Grain and Materials become irrelevant, as do any city leveling options that have to compete with Essence. 4 Essence means you are doing 20 Production more than a Town or Fortress. You can do twice as much growth as a Town. You can get 4 extra Grain. And you still have one extra enchantment slot for specialization. Grain can't compete with Essence when Essence can make Grain. Towns can't compete with Conclaves when Conclaves can outgrow Towns. Fortresses can't compete with Conclaves when Conclaves can outproduce Fortresses. The really messed up thing is that Towns and Fortresses can compete with Conclaves most closely on research levels. Are you starting to see why the current Essence balance is a problem?
End of seanw3's quote

What he said
I know its slightly not helping the thread, but I when I saw Steven's response I was thinking the exact same reply up...

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reply #19 Top

Quoting StevenAus, reply 17
Yes, it is often better to boost other less powerful things than to nerf more powerful things - as long as the most powerful things aren't already game-breaking.
End of StevenAus's quote

If essence is too good then it will be pointless to build in places without it. Also as it stands now as long as you have essence you don't need to worry about food at all. It also tends to make conclaves overpowered. We will see more diversity in cities and more interesting choices if the game is balanced. It would also be impossible to say boost grain to compensate since essence currently can totally replace grain.

Reply #20 Top

Updated. It's great to see all the changes that have removed things from this list. Great work Stardock!

Reply #21 Top

Quoting DsRaider, reply 21
Updated. It's great to see all the changes that have removed things from this list. Great work Stardock!
End of DsRaider's quote

:D
Some of the changes I welcome gladly, like the change to monks robe really makes it less "overall use" and more interesting.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej