[Thoughts and Impressions] Disappointment, Part 2

Putting It in Terms of Other Games I've Played

So, I confess that it's pretty hard to get excited about FE.  The game suffers from the same trouble elemental did:  it's boring.  Every game I start, aside from happening on a random map, is pretty much the same.

This is a pretty stark difference from GalCiv, which always feels fresh and exciting.

Troubles:

  1. All the races are the same.  They look the same, but even worse, they play the same.
  2. All the armies are the same.  If I wanted to micromanage a horde of identical peasants, I'd play one of the Total War games.
  3. There are too few techs, which matter too little and too much at the same time.  I have to research the ability to use swords, really?
  4. There are no significant options when designing units.  "Identical or helpless" is not a choice.  Minor stat bumps are not a choice.
  5. The sovereign has too many abilities that don't matter.  Or rather, no abilities that do matter.  My sovereign isn't so much a sovereign as a militiaman with delusions of grandeur.
  6. The world is ugly and drab.  It may be relevant to the story, but that just means you need a better story, or better vision of it.  Enslaved, for example, had a vibrant post-apocalyptic world, one that would have been more interesting to try to save.
  7. Oh, yeah, and I don't care about the story, I just want a fun re-playable turn based strategy.  People don't play Civilization for the story.

Solutions:

  1. Dynasties like in Crusader Kings II, because family trees and intrigue make everything more interesting, and then heroes would important even if they still had no useful role in combat.
  2. A Sovereign that matters like in Master of Magic.  If I'm going to lead a people back from chaos to conquest, I ought to be playing as someone who is at least interesting.
  3. Diverse races, like in GalCiv II.  I can't say this enough, diverse races are half of what makes these games replayable.
  4. Colors, like in Heroes of Might and Magic.  The world is prettier in color.
  5. Actually, tactical combat that's engaging, like in HoMM.  While FE is an improvement over WoM, the combat still drags because it's a line of identical units versus enemies that have varied appearances, but are mostly just jars of increasing hitpoints with unreasonable damage.  Except bears, that apparently get unlimited attacks.  
  6. Oh, and buildings that are important and interesting, like in HoMM, or even slightly more interesting, like in GalCiv.  I spend a lot of time building things that don't seem to matter much, aside from increasing the oddity and inconvenience of my city shape.
  7. Useful spells that can be practically employed, like in every other game that involves magic.  Underpowered, overpriced spells with boring effects...  These are not fun to use.
19,951 views 45 replies
Reply #1 Top

I think that Stardock is doing very well with the FE beta. They have promised more faction differentiation, more of everything (spells, units, quests and such). 

Some of your solutions seem to be for a different game. Its a bit too late to do very advanced dynasties (this is not Crusader Kings), and I would hate it if I had to micromanage who marries who and get which children. Some very simple solution could help diplomacy a bit though.

I prefer more colours too (Kings Bounty), but they are not changing graphics at this point. 

They will address city building.

I love the way units are in this game, and if we only could update unit numbers all would be well :d

 

Gal Civ didnt hook me in any way like FE beta, so I really dont miss anything from it. People have different tastes I guess :)

Reply #2 Top

I agree with all your points though I think the tech tree is pretty good for a beta. Yes the art/science of quality sword craft needs to be rediscovered by the surviving metal smiths.

The game already has dynasty system but my understanding is that they cut it. I'm not sure the time frame fits a generational system but I think they should leave it in..never remove options. 

Color is the only thing I'm really disappointed with that doesnt show any signs of improving. Homm4 is 10 year old game and both the world and the units look much sharper and outstanding than FE

Reply #3 Top

So, I confess that it's pretty hard to get excited about FE.  The game suffers from the same trouble elemental did:  it's boring.  Every game I start, aside from happening on a random map, is pretty much the same.This is a pretty stark difference from GalCiv, which always feels fresh and exciting.Troubles:All the races are the same.  They look the same, but even worse, they play the same. 

Indeed, I completely agree with this one. The look doesn't bother me, but the game play does.

 


All the armies are the same.  If I wanted to micromanage a horde of identical peasants, I'd play one of the Total War games. 

I agree with this one too : despite having an unit designer, without traits and gear to make units play specific roles on the battlefield, and with so much stuff locked because of tech prerequisite, there is very little room for variety here. Total war games have much more diverse units, because you need some spearmen, some cavalry, some archers, and some grunts to hold the line. Spamming the single same unit does not work as well as there. Note that this was a problem with MoM too, as there was little reason to have a mixed force. But at least, there were several ways to build a stack of death, and many of them were specific to a single build. 

 

There are too few techs, which matter too little and too much at the same time.  I have to research the ability to use swords, really?
There are no significant options when designing units.  "Identical or helpless" is not a choice.  Minor stat bumps are not a choice.

 

That's one of my biggest concerns with the game : the tech tree is horrible in its current version. I hate having to research basic stuff like swords, shortbows and spears. I'd like most of the boring techs to be given at start, and replaced by techs that would sound "cool".

 

The sovereign has too many abilities that don't matter.  Or rather, no abilities that do matter.  My sovereign isn't so much a sovereign as a militiaman with delusions of grandeur.

 

I don't agree about this one. The sovereign can be pretty bad ass. Mine plowed through countless armies without effort. The problem is that most of it was because of his stuff, and not his skills (except for his skills as a fireball thrower).

Most traits and sovereign starting traits need to be buffed so that they really define the role of the champion or sovereign in game. No more +2 to a stat that did little to begin with, please. 


The world is ugly and drab.  It may be relevant to the story, but that just means you need a better story, or better vision of it.  Enslaved, for example, had a vibrant post-apocalyptic world, one that would have been more interesting to try to save.
Oh, yeah, and I don't care about the story, I just want a fun re-playable turn based strategy.  People don't play Civilization for the story.

 

I don't care much about the ugliness. What I'd like would be to see some lairs repop on the map, as it becomes empty in the end, which is a shame, as monsters are currently more fun to battle than opponents (because they don't only field spearmen and shortbowmen mostly, and because they have special abilities that do matter).


Solutions:

Dynasties like in Crusader Kings II, because family trees and intrigue make everything more interesting, and then heroes would important even if they still had no useful role in combat.
A Sovereign that matters like in Master of Magic.  If I'm going to lead a people back from chaos to conquest, I ought to be playing as someone who is at least interesting. 

I don't think dynasties would work there, especially if they are pasted out of the blue on a game that has nothing to do with them in the first place. That said, text events that force you to make choices like in GalCiv or Crusader Kings would make us care more about our kingdom.

 

Diverse races, like in GalCiv II.  I can't say this enough, diverse races are half of what makes these games replayable.
Colors, like in Heroes of Might and Magic.  The world is prettier in color. 

 

That would be really needed indeed! They are working on it through. Let's just hope they address the problem correctly.

 


Actually, tactical combat that's engaging, like in HoMM.  While FE is an improvement over WoM, the combat still drags because it's a line of identical units versus enemies that have varied appearances, but are mostly just jars of increasing hitpoints with unreasonable damage.  Except bears, that apparently get unlimited attacks. 

More special abilities (and flanking and no more diagonal attacks) would really help make the combat less dull while keeping the length of most battles under 3 mins. Archery needs to be reworked too, as focusing fire is way too easy, and kiting too. There needs to have some range penalty. That won't make combat more difficult to handle for the player (I expected archery to be less efficient at extreme range. I was quite surprised it was not). Battles needing to last less than 3 minutes is no excuse for poor implementation of archery.


Oh, and buildings that are important and interesting, like in HoMM, or even slightly more interesting, like in GalCiv.  I spend a lot of time building things that don't seem to matter much, aside from increasing the oddity and inconvenience of my city shape.
Useful spells that can be practically employed, like in every other game that involves magic.  Underpowered, overpriced spells with boring effects...  These are not fun to use.

I agree with both the spells and the buildings. Except the anti stack spells and the AOE spells, most other spells are pretty dull and useless (or scale horribly badly). 

Overall, I don't really find the game boring, as I like exploring and adventuring with my sovereign while my backwater nations does nothing of consequence. It reminds me a bit of Birthright, which was quite a mess too, but a pretty enjoyable one. It would be a shame not to rework the broken aspects of the game though.

Reply #4 Top

Quoting enoeraew37, reply 2
I agree with all your points though I think the tech tree is pretty good for a beta. Yes the art/science of quality sword craft needs to be rediscovered by the surviving metal smiths.
End of enoeraew37's quote

 

It would be ok if we had to rediscover masterwork or quality items, but we have to rediscover peasant levy grade pointy sticks and cowhide leather armor... That does not really qualify for quality craft. I'd rather have basic versions of all this available, and unlock awesomer versions of these, to have more choice in the beginning (and in most of the game anyway, as it will be decided rather early on).

Reply #5 Top

Quoting DarkGaldred, reply 4
It would be ok if we had to rediscover masterwork or quality items, but we have to rediscover peasant levy grade pointy sticks and cowhide leather armor... That does not really qualify for quality craft. I'd rather have basic versions of all this available, and unlock awesomer versions of these, to have more choice in the beginning (and in most of the game anyway, as it will be decided rather early on).
End of DarkGaldred's quote

This!

The current weapons tech system where you have to unlock spears(Pointy sticks) and archery is unlocked like 15 min into a game is so incredibly bad for replay value.

The armor system is even worse, where you unlock a single light armor, than a medium armor, than a heavy armor at end game. This just seems lazy and poorly thought out. There should be multiple levels of heavy, light and medium armors that you unlock over the course of the game. It doesn't really make sense for there to be only 1 light armor in a magical world where said armor could be made of anything from cow hide to Drake Scales. It certainly doesn't help gameplay or faction differentation. In the real world plate armor was not the first heavy armor ever created, it was the most advanced form of it, coming after lamellar and Brigandine type armor.

Reply #6 Top

Here's to hoping Beta-2b will have some enhancements on the blahness. I know they're adding more content in, which should make things much more interesting and fun.

Reply #7 Top

Considering that Mr Frogboy said there are still months and months of Beta, I'm not to worried about getting things right. I too find that the game is pretty boring after a few runs.

 

I'm waiting to see what will be done to get it better.

Reply #8 Top

Any of you guys tried my Waiting For Next Beta Mod? I will have a better version out this weekend hopefully. I have a fellow tester working with me now.  :borg:   :borg:

Reply #9 Top

Quoting seanw3, reply 8
Any of you guys tried my Waiting For Next Beta Mod? I will have a better version out this weekend hopefully. I have a fellow tester working with me now.   
End of seanw3's quote

 

Where do we get it? I would love to give it a try

Reply #10 Top

As far as colors go, having interesting "domains" for each Faction would be nice (but not necessary).

 

Domain Ideas:

Resolyn

-> Twisted leafless trees, purple energies, blackened earth with the occasional Graveyard/Necropolis, and perhaps some skeletons here or there.

Yithril

-> green lands like the kingdoms, but littered with blood and the freshly dead (armored fallen soldiers). Heads on pikes (in the cities and along the roads).

Magnar

-> Volcanic lands, with molten fissures and mountains turning into Volcanoes. Can potentially spawn lairs of (flavorful) fire creatures.

Kraxis

-> Green shadowy forests (more likely to spawn spiders), similar to kingdom colors, but slightly darker (like a 'fallen' kingdom). Festively bright cities though, with Ornate buildings.

Umber

-> the current 'default' empire domain. Cracked darkish earth and purple forests.

 

Reply #11 Top

Check out the FE Modding section. You'll see it.

Reply #12 Top

Have any of you ever played an older game called "Stars!"? There is an interesting lesson to be had especially with this game regarding differentiating races. In Stars!, races were so customizable that the playstyle that a player chose was just about completely dependent on how they designed the race. Stars! was (and is still played to some extent) a bit too number-crunchy for most people, but otherwise it was a pretty good game. And it's a great example of an extreme end of the spectrum of the balance between allowing a variety of playstyles for each race versus allowing a variety of playstyles but only one per race.

Based on what I've seen from comments on this board and my own preference, it seems to me that FE should fall somewhere in the middle: where every possible playstyle in the game isn't possible for every race, but each race has at least a couple which are viable.

Is that accurate?

Reply #13 Top

I've said it many times and I'll say it again.

A tech tree which works as a progression of "unlocking steps" (of things that shouldn't need to be unlocked to begin with) is a BAD idea. Boring, lifeless, senseless.

"Unlocking" creation of teams of more than x number of people?

"Unlocking" heroes' speech capability, so you can ask for their services?

"Unlocking" lairs, so that you become able to venture beyond the entrance? 

 

A tech tree should provide breakthroughs in research and then lead to consequences of said breakthroughs, not unlock things that you should be obviously able to do already. And again I say, check Alpha Centauri for a brilliant example of meaningful tech tree.

It's been more than an year since WoM, and I still can't figure out how concepts like the above ones EVER got into the game. Still the worst part of the whole design for me. And I still hope something will be done to fix it, by the devs or by modders.

 

Reply #14 Top

It is possible that this just isn't the game for you. I hate saying that but some of the comments here tell me that some people just are looking for a different game.

Reply #15 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 14
It is possible that this just isn't the game for you. I hate saying that but some of the comments here tell me that some people just are looking for a different game.
End of Frogboy's quote

I love playing FE at the moment and think it will ultimately be a great game (I've stopped playing for now because of crashes so am waiting for the next release). But I also agree strongly with the issues addressed in this thread. So while I think that much of what the OP has listed would vastly improve things for FE I think that FE is still definitely the game for me. Thankfully many of the issues will be able to be modded out (tech tree problems etc) so I'm not overly concerned about those at this stage as long as the game continues to be accessible through its XML.

I'm purposely not applying mods to the beta yet because I don't want to cloud my thoughts and want to give meaningful feedback.

Reply #16 Top

Quoting Das123, reply 15

I'm purposely not applying mods to the beta yet because I don't want to cloud my thoughts and want to give meaningful feedback.
End of Das123's quote

same

Reply #17 Top

But how can you say that your ideas are worth anything if you haven't tested them?

Reply #18 Top

Sean, I approve of you testing your own theories in a mod ... I meant DLing other peoples mods ;)

 

I'll download your mods after launch though :p

 

Edit: Or in a couple weeks ... just depends on when the next version arrives ;)

Reply #19 Top

Sounds good. I want people to try out my mod only when they feel they have exhausted all testing with the current version. I just get so annoyed by little things that I can change so easily, I decided that there must be a few testers out there that feel the same way. Of course this is a grab bag mod of several conversations from the forums. Bows and kiting is more nuanced than a flat -6 Init penalty. Armor has no inherent penalty to Init, but the penalty for encumbrance can wreck a poorly designed unit. Those kinds of things. And then there is the bit where buildings actually matter and change how you play the game.

Launch is a long way off, but I am sure these things will eventually be addressed as we more forward.

Reply #20 Top

Your mod certainly sounds good and I do look forward to giving it a run. You're right about waiting for the next release. I'm not going to be giving any more feedback for now so I'll install it tonight. :)

Reply #21 Top

Wasn't spearmen the standard default unit in all MOM races and cities?

Reply #22 Top

yep, but you could build swordmen from the beginning. Spearmen were only necessary for garrison because they did not require food. You didn't spend half of the game being only able to train spearmen.

Reply #23 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 14
It is possible that this just isn't the game for you. I hate saying that but some of the comments here tell me that some people just are looking for a different game.
End of Frogboy's quote

 I think this is a bit of a cop-out given the OP's post.

Reading it closely 2-3 times, there isn't much in there that suggests he is actually after a different game. I mean sure, he clearly has an issue with the graphics/colors and perhaps his dynasty solution is a bit elaborate for a game of this type, but other than that he has essentially asked for:

 - More interesting races -> this is being worked on.

- More interesting armies.  Who wouldn't want this and who could argue that somebody who wants armies that are distinct and serve different purposes in strategy are 'after a different game' ?  Have you guys played the latest Kings Bounty Games?  I mean sure its a different sort of game and I'm not ignorantly saying you should 'copy' their special abilities, but there is a real lesson in that game about diverse, interesting armies with cool and useful specials.

- Interesting, unique and powerful sovereign -> Again I feel this is something being worked on and I agree with some of the OP's comments that too many of the current abilities feel rather insignificant.

- Engaging tactial combat.  This doesn't have to mean in-depth flanking and crap like that.  Simply solving the 'more interesting armies' point above would pretty much take care of this.

-Unit design -> Again goes back to having interesting armies and special abilities that don't all feel too similar. 

- Interesting tech tree with less obvious techs so that each game doesn't start the same way by forcing you to research the obvious.  Yes he wants strategy and meaningful choice in his research ... is there anybody on these forums that does not want this for FE? Seriously?  Again I ask, how can this be seen as 'wanting a different' game.

The base points above, particularly more diverse races, units, combat and tech trees is something I have seen echoed many, many times as a lurker in these forums.  This in most cases has been met by much support and little opposition from other posters because people agree it will simply make the game better.

RedFury (who is concerned by Frogboy's post because I agree with many of the OP's points, yet I don't want a 'different game' - just an improved version of the current one.)

 

Reply #24 Top

Quoting RedFury123, reply 23


The base points above, particularly more diverse races, units, combat and tech trees is something I have seen echoed many, many times as a lurker in these forums.  This in most cases has been met by much support and little opposition from other posters because people agree it will simply make the game better.

RedFury (who is concerned by Frogboy's post because I agree with many of the OP's points, yet I don't want a 'different game' - just an improved version of the current one.)

 
End of RedFury123's quote

 

These are my thoughts exactly, I don't want a different game, I just want this one not to fall into the "wasted potential" category. 

Reply #25 Top

A quick start feature will likely be available to those that really don't want to research basic techs. Not really an issue as far as I can tell. You can very easily make a mod that does this. I believe "IsStartingTech" is what you want to add to the techs you feel entitled to. The rest seems like it is already being addressed. I would feel as if the lore was being thrown out the window if we started the game at an early medieval tech level. But we all have different perspectives I guess.