Vaul_Darkhour Vaul_Darkhour

Fixing & Improving the AI Difficulty Tooltips/Options

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Fixing & Improving the AI Difficulty Tooltips/Options

from Elemental Forums

I have started games of FE, where as a disclaimer I believe has moved in the right direction, but on Normal difficulty there is no incentive for me to build units and buildings in the early game despite having the option to build so many of them.. The AI is key to this and game balance.

Ok sure there is an environment to explore and defeat but it needs to interact not simply sit there as fodder. The AI needs to WANT to win also, not simply sit there as a simple measure of your empire building status. If I am impelled to build building or unit A because I am at threat of losing, then the game is infinitely better, more immersive and challenging. I don't want to play against a non crippled AI that has bonuses, I want to play against the best AI possible that plays by the same rules as I. If this is possible, and I'm still winning, then I move onto the next difficulty level and the AI gets bonuses.

This is a request to fix the AI difficulty options/tooltips (below) and make the full AI available as a difficulty selection with customizable options.

Some ideas have been for making the AI difficulty selection better.

Quoting vieuxchat, reply 46
What I'd like : two separate options for AI and for bonuses : Sometimes I'd like to play with the best AI but with economic maluses for it. Or a dumb player with a looot of economic bonuses (which should be separate)

So at start you would choose : AI, gildar generation bonus (flat and/or percentage), mana generation (flat and/or percentage), building time (flat and/or percentage), first level of all created armies (new armies starts at level 2 or 3 or 4 etc.), research bonuses (flat and/or ... you know the jazz), etc.
End of vieuxchat's quote

Quoting LordRikerQ, reply 48
We also need a separate XP slider, so people who dont want Champions of doom can set their heroes to get like 90% less XP and those who want more active heroes can set it to get full XP amounts. This will also do wonders for the difficulty level.
End of LordRikerQ's quote

Quoting jpmcconnell, reply 7
Why not simply have two different sliders? One for AI intelligence and one for AI bonus. Give us the option. If we want to play against the smartest AI brad can come up with but with no bonuses then by all means let us. If we want dumb AI but huge bonuses let us. 

This seems like such an easy and obvious fix that I'm amazed that its included on zero actual games that I can think of.
End of jpmcconnell's quote

Update: For those wanting to play with uncrippled AI and no bonuses, because its not obvious and the tooltips are incorrect in v.77 atm, choose challenging difficulty on the main difficulty screen! The main difficulty options screen changes the AI in the customize opponent screen. So if you want some varied difficulty opponents, change them there instead.

38,142 views 53 replies
Reply #26 from Elemental Forums Top

More discussion and pleas from people wanting the AI fixed in the patch 0.76 thread.

Fallen Enchantress 0.76 changelog
https://forums.elementalgame.com/415307

"To be blunt Brad, and I'm sure you've read all the threads on AI in the forums, but people want FE to be a success and be fun and challenging and a good AI is crucial for this to happen. The way FE works at the moment, everyone plays with crippled AI unless playing on ridiculous with bonuses. That is simply not the best way to present difficulty. People want 'ridiculous' level AI (i.e. normal)(with increased level of CPU or whatever) and no bonuses, or sliders so we can set it ourselves. The AI right now on normal is at a level my 6 yr old can beat.." 

Reply #27 from Elemental Forums Top

Further discussion about the AI for those who are interested in this thread.

Fallen Enchantress 0.76 changelog
https://forums.elementalgame.com/415307

Quoting Frogboy, reply 84
Well, I'd be the one to set the tooltip. I just didn't know there was one to change.

Basically, challenging is the same as normal except I have it (and everything above normal) use some nastier (read: CPU intensive) algorithms.  This will be more significant later on.

Case in point: I say MyArmy->SetDestination(x,y) and right now, there might be very bad things between where it is now and where it wants to go. You'll see the AI do stupid stuff because it's expensive for it to calculate every unit every turn.

So on Challenging, Cari wrote me an API CheckPath(x,y) that will let me look at every tile between source and destination for problems.  This will stop things like seeing pioneer units just standing around when they finally get to an obstacle that they won't pass or an army going to its doom because half way there it went through the wild lands or something.  But it is CPU intensive.

One nice thign about the API is that it could potentiallyl be used for real-time path displays ala Civ V before you send a unit off.  Whether that'll make it into 1.0 remains to be seen but it's something we hope to put in there.
End of Frogboy's quote

Well as I and others have posted Brad, it would be good if we had the option to use the highest level and best AI possible, i.e. ridiculous level AI without the bonuses attached. I would argue that that difficulty level was called 'Normal', but if you disagree, can we not have a difficulty level that gives us access to the best ridiculous cpu eating AI possible without the bonuses!? If not, or as another option, can we please have sliders in the difficulty screen so that we may set the AI and bonus combinations we would like? Is that not too much to ask?

Star Control: Origins
Reply #28 from Elemental Forums Top

Perhaps normal AI could use a few tweaks, or even better just impliment the slider bars others have mentioned, but I'll never understand (in general) Why people make such a big deal about normal mode, almost stubborn determination to play it even if they arent being challenged, and want a challenge and should be playing on hard.  Really, its what Hard mode is there for, trying to make normal the new hard is a bit silly when such functions already exist.

 

Difficulty is also subjective and only the most hardcore of players who preordered right away are probably in beta right now (until they send out more invitations). I'd take core' players notions on difficulty with a grain of salt, they DO NOT represent most players, probaly any AI you can give them would be easy to a hardcore Strategy player.

Reply #29 from Elemental Forums Top

I too vote for a level with AI algorithms maxed without cheating bonuses.

Reply #30 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting LordRikerQ, reply 28
Perhaps normal AI could use a few tweaks, or even better just impliment the slider bars others have mentioned, but I'll never understand (in general) Why people make such a big deal about normal mode, almost stubborn determination to play it even if they arent being challenged, and want a challenge and should be playing on hard.  Really, its what Hard mode is there for, trying to make normal the new hard is a bit silly when such functions already exist.

 

Difficulty is also subjective and only the most hardcore of players who preordered right away are probably in beta right now (until they send out more invitations). I'd take core' players notions on difficulty with a grain of salt, they DO NOT represent most players, probaly any AI you can give them would be easy to a hardcore Strategy player.
End of LordRikerQ's quote

ahh because i dont want to play the AI with bonuses, especially in the Beta, just the full uncrippled AI. Just as many do. Just the best AI they can come up with that doesnt cheat.

Reply #31 from Elemental Forums Top

Heres a reply post from the patchnote thread.

Quoting Vaul_Darkhour, reply 128

Quoting Vallu751, reply 110
Did you read Brad's reply? He said that the Challenging difficulty level has the AI use all the means at it's proposal, just without any bonuses.

That's what Challenging has always been in Stardock games, as someone else already said on this thread.


Quoting Barrynor, reply 116
Again, as said before, you can set the game to " Challenging" for this. Ignore the tooltips, they are woefully incorrect ( as to be expected from beta's, cosmetic changes like tooltips are usually low on the change-list). Set the game to "Challenging", this is the uncrippled AI without any bonusses.

Vaul, I think your point is very, very clear by now. Yes, the current AI sucks. Yes, its being worked upon hard. Have you ever tried Galciv II...? The AI was programmed and improved by Brad, its his specialism and, given enough room to do so, he will achieve good results. But if all you do is keep shouting that the AI sucks ( and plenty of people have been pointing this out already) then you're not adding much to the discussion, in my opinion ( mind you, its an opinion of mine, not actual fact). Stardock is aware that their reputation as a game developer has been badly marred by E:WOM. The replay value of this game stands or falls with the computing power of the AI. I'd prefer to be a beta tester for the next year to get the AI up and running.... I do not mind. I've been playing with MoM since 199what3, 4? right up untill this Beta comes out. I can wait for another year.
End of Vaul_Darkhour's quote


OMG.. The last time I checked, Brad hasn't directly replied to the issue rather than to comment on being unaware of the tooltips and to state that challenging has 'better' AI than Normal and with no bonuses... 

Here are the tooltips.

Normal Difficulty - Avergage AI

Challenging Difficulty - Increased AI + Bonuses

Hard Difficulty - Very High AI + Bonuses

Ridiculous Difficulty - Ludicrous AI + Bonuses

 

Now regardless of the challenging tooltip being incorrect or not (it wasn't fixed in the patch so..?), the crippled AI doesn't reach its proper level of intelligence until ridiculous difficulty. Just read Brad's previous posts on developing the AI. He wants a crippled AI for normal difficulty because he thinks fun doesnt = cuthroat AI. Now I disagree BUT regardless there should be a difficulty level that just provides the best AI possible without bonuses attached (or sliders so we can choose). [/quote]

Reply #32 from Elemental Forums Top

Another thread where pretty much everyone wants better AI and believes that the AI worst part of FE.

State of the Beta - what needs fixing?
https://forums.elementalgame.com/416197

Heres a quote from Brad in the thread..

Quoting Frogboy, reply 25
The majority of the AI code won't be in the beta 1 series. That starts happening in beta 2. For beta 1, only APIs for the AI are available and are made use of to determine their stability/performance.  
End of Frogboy's quote

Hmmm... doesn't explain the crippled AI when choosing difficulty..

Reply #34 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Vaul_Darkhour, reply 32


Another thread where pretty much everyone wants better AI and believes that the AI worst part of FE.
State of the Beta - what needs fixing?
https://forums.elementalgame.com/416197

Heres a quote from Brad in the thread..




Quoting Frogboy,
reply 25
The majority of the AI code won't be in the beta 1 series. That starts happening in beta 2. For beta 1, only APIs for the AI are available and are made use of to determine their stability/performance.  


Hmmm... doesn't explain the crippled AI when choosing difficulty..
End of Vaul_Darkhour's quote

You just won't listen to what people say to you isn't it? Numerous times it has been said that the challenging AI is the complete and uncrippled AI (as far as it is in this stage of the beta), despite the tooltip.

Reply #35 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting LordTheRon, reply 34

Quoting Vaul_Darkhour, reply 32

Another thread where pretty much everyone wants better AI and believes that the AI worst part of FE.
State of the Beta - what needs fixing?
https://forums.elementalgame.com/416197

Heres a quote from Brad in the thread..




Quoting Frogboy,
reply 25
The majority of the AI code won't be in the beta 1 series. That starts happening in beta 2. For beta 1, only APIs for the AI are available and are made use of to determine their stability/performance.  


Hmmm... doesn't explain the crippled AI when choosing difficulty..


You just won't listen to what people say to you isn't it? Numerous times it has been said that the challenging AI is the complete and uncrippled AI (as far as it is in this stage of the beta), despite the tooltip.
End of LordTheRon's quote

Where has this been said pray tell? Brad has stated that challenging is and I quote "Basically, challenging is the same as normal except I have it (and everything above normal) use some nastier (read: CPU intensive) algorithms.". He has not said that the challenging difficulty uses the 'same' algorithms as ridiculous difficulty and his AI threads and tooltips support this. The way that (all) the difficulty tooltips are written and from his existing threads on AI, Brad wants a crippled AI for Normal difficulty which becomes progressively better at harder levels (and also eats more cpu).

Reply #36 from Elemental Forums Top

You seem to wnat to read something different, but in line with all previous Stardock games he says: "Basically, challenging is the same as normal except I have it (and everything above normal) use some nastier (read: CPU intensive) algorithms.". Meaning that on challenging it's using the intensive algorithms just like on hard an rediculous. 

Reply #37 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting LordTheRon, reply 36
You seem to wnat to read something different, but in line with all previous Stardock games he says: "Basically, challenging is the same as normal except I have it (and everything above normal) use some nastier (read: CPU intensive) algorithms.". Meaning that on challenging it's using the intensive algorithms just like on hard an rediculous. 
End of LordTheRon's quote

OMG have you read the previous AI threads that Brad posted on before FE release?! How are you reading into the AI developed for other games where Brad has said in other threads that developing the AI for FE was different and more complex?! Seriously I'm reading what has been posted and what is in FE... seriously man not sure what your reading, just guessing and alluding. If it wasn't an issue I'm sure Brad or Derek would have replied and said it wasn't so or maybe the tootips would have been fixed to represent this in 0.76 considering how east it would have been, but no this is not the case..

Reply #38 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Vaul_Darkhour, reply 37

Quoting LordTheRon, reply 36You seem to wnat to read something different, but in line with all previous Stardock games he says: "Basically, challenging is the same as normal except I have it (and everything above normal) use some nastier (read: CPU intensive) algorithms.". Meaning that on challenging it's using the intensive algorithms just like on hard an rediculous. 

OMG have you read the previous AI threads that Brad posted on before FE release?! How are you reading into the AI developed for other games where Brad has said in other threads that developing the AI for FE was different and more complex?! Seriously I'm reading what has been posted and what is in FE... seriously man not sure what your reading, just guessing and alluding. If it wasn't an issue I'm sure Brad or Derek would have replied and said it wasn't so or maybe the tootips would have been fixed to represent this in 0.76 considering how east it would have been, but no this is not the case..
End of Vaul_Darkhour's quote

https://forums.elementalgame.com/415307/page/2/#3064476

Reply #39 from Elemental Forums Top


Last time I reply to this 'issue' of yours. You don't read anything people write to you, you're full with your own assumptions.

If it wasn't an issue I'm sure Brad or Derek would have replied and said it wasn't so or maybe the tootips would have been fixed to represent this in 0.76 considering how east it would have been, but no this is not the case..
End of quote

Assumptions, assumptions and more assumptions. Mtrixis just pointed out the exact thread I was referring to, but probably if you read that, you still don't believe me/us/Brad/anybody.

Reply #40 from Elemental Forums Top

Play on challenging. That is the level where the AI plays its best game without bonuses.

Reply #41 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 40
Play on challenging. That is the level where the AI plays its best game without bonuses.
End of Frogboy's quote

 

The Tooltips say something different!

Nevertheless when "Challenging" is still without AI Bonus please make more hard modes. Only "Hard" and "Ridiculous" as AI bonus difficult levels is too less for the experienced players.

Reply #42 from Elemental Forums Top

Maybe since frogboy programmed the AI himself you should listen to him about what the levels do and not some tooltip written by someone less informed about the inner workings?

Reply #43 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Sarudak, reply 42
Maybe since frogboy programmed the AI himself you should listen to him about what the levels do and not some tooltip written by someone less informed about the inner workings?
End of Sarudak's quote

 

And? Read my post starting with "Nevertheless". I just noted that tooltip is wrong when frogboy is right.

 

We are in beta, we have to talk about bugs like this...

Reply #44 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting calmon, reply 43

And? Read my post starting with "Nevertheless". I just noted that tooltip is wrong when frogboy is right.

We are in beta, we have to talk about bugs like this...
End of calmon's quote

Quoting Murteas, reply 136

By the way, that is the world difficulty, not the AI opponent difficulty.   They are not the same.  You need to customize your opponents to see the difficulty of your opponents.   Set them to challenging and then post reports.
End of Murteas's quote

Exactly! If anyone cares to note. There is a main screen when choosing difficulty that I have posted images of above which indicate AI difficulty. Now if Murteas is correct, then what does the main screen difficulty represent when it says it changes the AI? (Thanks Murteas) Either the main screen changes the AI difficulty, or the customize opponents screen does, or both? The customize opponents screen doesn't even have tooltips to reflect what they change between difficulty! If Brad says that challenging difficulty is the best full cpu eating AI possible in FE without bonuses, then why isn't it reflected in the tooltips on either screens and what are the AI differences between changing either?

It's taken nearly a week for a representative from Stardock to reply to this thread and without fully explaining the issue or resolving it. FE has had 2 patches and the tooltips have not been fixed or an adequate explanation.

Quoting Istari, reply 3
The monsters don't have an AI to them. Only other players do. The AI gets smarter up until challenging. After Challenging it is given bonuses.
End of Istari's quote

Now heres a response from Istari in another thread explaining difficulty selection better. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure I read from Brad saying that monsters do have AI?

  1. So whats the difference between the AI difficulty between the main screen and customize opponent screen considering the main screen indicates a change in AI difficulty but theres also an option in the customize screen?
  2. Now we've got clarification that challenging is the level to play on for pure AI and no bonuses, which screen do we change? The main screen, customize or both?
  3. When are the tooltips on both screens going to be fixed to reflect AI difficulty?

Seriously this shouldn't be that hard of an issue for Stardock to have nipped in the bud. I'm just trying to help stardock and players get the game with the best AI possible.

Reply #45 from Elemental Forums Top

You are also kinda being a nag.

Reply #46 from Elemental Forums Top

What I'd like : two separate options for AI and for bonuses : Sometimes I'd like to play with the best AI but with economic maluses for it. Or a dumb player with a looot of economic bonuses (which should be separate)

So at start you would choose : AI, gildar generation bonus (flat and/or percentage), mana generation (flat and/or percentage), building time (flat and/or percentage), first level of all created armies (new armies starts at level 2 or 3 or 4 etc.), research bonuses (flat and/or ... you know the jazz), etc.

Reply #47 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting vieuxchat, reply 46
What I'd like : two separate options for AI and for bonuses : Sometimes I'd like to play with the best AI but with economic maluses for it. Or a dumb player with a looot of economic bonuses (which should be separate)

So at start you would choose : AI, gildar generation bonus (flat and/or percentage), mana generation (flat and/or percentage), building time (flat and/or percentage), first level of all created armies (new armies starts at level 2 or 3 or 4 etc.), research bonuses (flat and/or ... you know the jazz), etc.
End of vieuxchat's quote

I like your option suggestions vieuxchat!

Reply #48 from Elemental Forums Top

We also need a separate XP slider, so people who dont want Champions of doom can set their heroes to get like 90% less XP and those who want more active heroes can set it to get full XP amounts. This will also do wonders for the difficulty level.

Reply #49 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting LordRikerQ, reply 48
We also need a separate XP slider, so people who dont want Champions of doom can set their heroes to get like 90% less XP and those who want more active heroes can set it to get full XP amounts. This will also do wonders for the difficulty level.
End of LordRikerQ's quote

Nice AI option too LordRikerQ!

Reply #50 from Elemental Forums Top

As an answer to the difficulty screen questions above from another thread.

Quoting Vaul_Darkhour, reply 25

Quoting EviliroN, reply 23Vaul, you should notice that if you change the main screen from normal to challenging, then go into customize, those, too, are on challenging. It does that in my game, at least.

Ok cheers EvilroN, so if you change the main screen difficulty to challenging, then the customize opponents are changed to challenging also. Now stardock just needs to fix the tooltips
End of Vaul_Darkhour's quote