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1.09n: Reduction to just 5 stats... a step backwards IMHO

1.09n: Reduction to just 5 stats... a step backwards IMHO

So I've been playing around with Elemental the last couple of days.

I'm liking a lot of the changes.  City construction is a lot more interesting, and I'm liking the new spells.

However, I feel like eliminating the 'secondary' stats (move, combat speed, essence) is a step in the wrong direction.  I often put points into Combat Speed, so my heroes would eventually get more attacks/actions in combat, and having to decide on boosting Essence or Strength, for example, was a nice brain teaser.

Admittedly, I stopped putting character points into movement, as there wasn't enough bang for the buck there, but with some point tweaking that could have been made more attractive.

Also, it was nice having Intelligence factor in to the damage a spell caused.  This gave you another brain teaser.  Do I increase Essence or Intelligence this time...

As it stands now, I put a lot less thought into boosting stats.  Intelligence gets boosted only if I'm trying to meet the minimum for a spell (example: Fireball: 20 Int), otherwise Strength, then Dexterity seem to be the way to go.  Plus, with 3 points per level, those stats boost pretty quickly.

Also, before I had goals to work towards, e.g. I need to raise this stat to 4.0, so let's go kill things.  The only goal I have now is raising Intelligence to meet spellcasting requirements.  Everything else is just 'well, that'll give me more damage, etc.'.

Charisma is a Sovereign only stat for me at the moment.  If the 'party leader's/point of contact's Charisma is used for the hiring, that might change.  I haven't tried raising it in the 1.09n system to see what happens as of yet.

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As for the Global Mana Pool, it's an interesting concept, but I don't think it should just accumulate unlimited points.  I also don't think casters should have effectively unlimited mana in Combat.  The Essence stat capped how much Mana a caster could wield, which was a nice limitation IMHO.

I think generating 'x' mana a Turn is a nice change, but would suggest a 'Maximum Mana' to go along with it.  Say, 50x to 100x the points generated each turn, with 'Essence' structures increasing this total.  This would go hand in hand with reducing the Mana requirements for higher level spells.  The 'retreat' spell costs a LOT of Mana (according to it's description), so if you ever plan on using it you tie up hundreds of Mana points, thus decreasing your desire to use spells.

As it stands now, I only use combat spells if I don't have bows handy, as things like fireballs just cost too much for what they do... and the title of the game is Elemental - War Of Magic (not War of Archers).  Pre-beta, the 2-5 Mana cost for many of the offensive spells was just enough to make me think about using spells, so I'd use them some of the time but not all or none of the time.  As it stands now, I hold off on spells for a long time .  And I've desummoned familiars, as they don't seem to be as useful these days, until I have several hundred points banked. This just doesn't feel 'magical' to me.

I will admit I like the fact that Elemental Shards now increase the Mana Pool:  This makes them more immediately useful.

I'll miss the "Well, it'll be about 10 or so turns before my Sovereign sees combat again, so I can afford to blow 10-12 essence points right now", per the old Mana system.  Plus, it was nice having the Teleport spell handy to get back home quickly after a long exploration trek in the early game.  This allowed you to upgrade your weapons and armor, heal a bit, and trade some items.  This also made 'holding' items for the Sovereign a little more practical.

Also, having multiple spellcasters in the party is less important now.  Before, having extra casters in your party meant more mana available in combat.  Now, it just means more spell attacks per turn, if you feel the need and have a shortage of Archers.

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I really liked the 'feel' of the pre 1.09n character system.  A lot of that is now lost.  It feels more wargamey to me now, and I have a LOT less attachment to my heroes.

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In short, I'm really liking some of the new spells, but I'm not liking the new Mana system much.  The old one was more interesting/challenging (at least in the early/mid game), and with tweaking could have been refined.  'Hybriding' the two systems might make me happier... but I'm not holding my breath.

If I were to suggest a hybridization of some sort, I'd say Channelers have their own pools of Essence, plus they can tap into the Global Mana to regenerate Essence points during combat or between turns. On their own, they'd regenerate 5% of their Essence every turn, and they might be able to acquire a cool amulet, staff, or something that increases their regeneration by one or more points every turn.

Also, if they want to 'overcast', i.e. cast a spell that requires more Mana than they have onhand, the difference in spell cost is doubled.  Example: if a Teleport costs 15 points, but you only have a 9 Essence stat, you'd have to draw 12 (15-9=6, 6x2=12) points out of the Global Mana Pool.  Overcasting might come at a price, i.e. damage to health, and it probably should take an extra action point or so to do.

Global Mana would be equal to, say, Total Population/20, plus say 25 for each shard controlled. Certain buildings - such as Tower Of Essence - would add to this total.

Global Mana would regenerate at, say, 5% per turn, plus bonus points from certain buildings.  Channeling Mana into your Caster's pool would take an extra action point(s) - you'd choose a 'draw upon Global Mana' action, and indicate how much mana you'd pull from the global pool, replenishing your mana up to your Essence stat/pool limit.

Note that Caster Essence pools would NOT increased by outside influences (Shards, buildings) - they'd have to raise their own Essence stat to increase the size of their own pool.  However, they'd benefit from being able to tap on the Global pool as needed, so the size of your Global pool would be important.  Carried items might be able to increase their pool, however (Crystal Staff, anyone?).

 

Also, I'd like to be able to dump points into combat speed and movement again.  And maybe separate dodge & block skills.  A separate 'intelligence requirement' and 'spell damage stat' would also make things interesting: Intelligence for spell level, Willpower for spell strength.

And the fractional points were not confusing to me, so feel free to put them back in!

 

[/rant off]

Other than that, I'm really liking where the game is going!  Finding Salted Pork on slain foes is a nice addition!  Great job, kudos to the Developers/Programmers/etc.!!!

 

23,232 views 55 replies
Reply #51 Top

Quoting Sethai, reply 50
i got the feeling from brad's post that they were struggling to make dodge effective, without having half your attacks do nothing (which is pretty unsatisfying and slows the game down). is there some way around this we can suggest? multiple smaller attacks perhaps?
End of Sethai's quote

I think a high Dodge chance (40 - 60 %) is ok if the unit can not have a high DEF at the same time. That means you can decide to get a few high damage hits (Dodge) or many low damage hits (DEF). Other options would be that Dexterity determines the Initiative or the effect of some spells, as i already suggested in this thread.

Reply #52 Top

Quoting Sethai, reply 50
i got the feeling from brad's post that they were struggling to make dodge effective, without having half your attacks do nothing (which is pretty unsatisfying and slows the game down). is there some way around this we can suggest? multiple smaller attacks perhaps?
End of Sethai's quote

I think high dodge rates are fine as long as it is clear as to why half your attacks are missing... If I know the enemy has a very high dex then I wouldn't mind half my attacks missing... As for dodge being effective compared to other stats at lower levels then I think the stat needs to be coupled with other functions such as turn initative or amounts of times I can attack in a turn.

Reply #53 Top

I'm actually thinking of makjing the following changes:

-Base accuracy = 8 (+3*level). Upgradable with training (+3 per training rank). This will actually make heroes with high dodge useful by making them hard to hit with regular troops. They'll be here to mop up the army, not take on other heroes.

-Dexterity upgradeable with training: +4 dex per rank. This will make rank-4 regular units with 11 dodge, or even more with a shield and some items. Which means that they have roughly 50% chance to dodge the attacks of a level 1 rank-1 unit, and more if they have dodge-improving items. 14-15 dodge must be withing reach with a good armor. A good alternative to fighting dudes with zweihanders with just heavy armor.

The counterpart will be that "training" will cost +15% gold per rank.

 

Reply #54 Top

In short, I'm really liking some of the new spells, but I'm not liking the new Mana system much. The old one was more interesting/challenging (at least in the early/mid game), and with tweaking could have been refined.
End of quote

A couldn't disagree with you more on the mana system I love the new system and would hate if they reverted it.

Reply #55 Top

Quoting UltimateElemental, reply 39

Quoting Hound, reply 13I'm glad one of the stats is gone. This is not an RPG.

I would still like to see the stats made more straightforward and renamed.


 
 

I have to strongly disagree with this post.

MoM (EWoM is MoM's spiritual successor) had many RPG elements, and they helped make the game great.

The main character and their heroes should be interesting, varied and powerful and the magic system should reflect this. MoM's magic system was perfect, why reinvent the wheel?
End of UltimateElemental's quote

MoM had no stats whatsoever. It had perks. Something I wish Elemental will have eventually. What's that about reinventing wheels? MoM's magic system and RPG/customization options are in no way similar to what Elemental currently has. MoM is still vastly superior in setting up an interesting character.

Copy pasting stats from DnD does not equal creating a great game. In a strategy game like Elemental, perks and deeper magic customization go a lot further in making a cool Sovereign than 12 Str, 10 Dex, 13 Int...

I'm in no way advocating removing RPG elements or customization options from the sovereigns. On the contrary, they need much more. But the stats don't have to go into unnecessary detail.

I also wish that the stat/perk distribution at Sovereign creation will have meaningful choices that impact your character throughout his progression. So if you create a warrior like Sovereign or a fragile Archmage type, that will be carried with them always.