Those of you who say you liked the "feeling" of the old system better need to think about whether or not they are just being resistant to change and a little nostaligic. The essense system, even if you liked aspects of it, was absolutely horrid from a balance standpoint, and needed to go before this game could be serious fun (not just fiddle with stuff fun).

Anyway, for the current stats I think things are good except for some tweaks and the following to changes:

1) Intelligence. I'm fine having this be the all out "magic" stat. I think having spells castable based off intelligence was a very nice touch, and that ALL spells should have a minimum intelligence requirement. Without this limiter, we run into the issue people have been complaining about where any caster is as good as any other.

2) Dexterity is entirely redundant. It does the same thing as Constitution--increase survivability. Only it does it much worse and unpredictably (unpredictability and survivability don't mesh, generally). This needs to be changed. My suggestion is to add a critical hit chance based off dex which deals double damage. You could also make the modifier 2.5x for bows/daggers, making dex the go to build for archers/roguish characters. Some weapons should have strength and dex requirements also.

I think it would be better to reduce the random factors in Elemental or the game will be a TBR (Turn Based Randomgame) and no not a TBS

But Dexterity could determine the Initiative of every unit and if two units have the same Dexterity there could be a 50 % chance that the attacker acts first.

Managing probabilities is part of the skills of a good tactician (ask any "magic: the gathering" player). I'd rather keep it as it is.

This entry would indicate that the SoV can't just dump Int if they wish to be the best that they can be Magically. Both the Resist and Boost features would provide solid bases for Tactical encounters.

Champs have to have it (casting level) after embuing and ignorning it for the SoV seems impractical at best.

Mostly agree.  Also, you can't see Intelligence now when you look at a Champion you want to hire.  Makes me wonder how much it's being used now?

Yes, the reduced stats feel very lean and reduces the opportunity of magic to affect the game.

For example: combining combat moves and combat speed into one stat.  Maybe that sounds like efficiency, but makes it so that you cannot use magic to freeze an enemy in place without also stopping him from doing any kind of attact or casting a spell.  Freezing or slowing an enemy while otherwise they remain functional is a staple of fantasy magic.

On the Escapist site, they have a weekly video called "Extra Credits," whose entry last week talking about game difficulty I hope Stardock is aware of and watches.  They distinguish game difficulty from game depth, and argue it is game depth that brings satisfaction to games, more so than difficulty.  I hope Stardock watches it because it feels like in the 1.1 beta we've lost depth.

Here it is: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2454-Easy-Games

The whole point of 1.1 is to gain a core set of features that work. This means losing the complexity of release, but it means that was is there will be playable. Has anyone forgotten that all the unitstats in the release were rendered null by a magic book that had like 3 usefull spells in it?

The next expansion will likely increase magic complexity, but for now we have a very solid game with a good magic system that functions as a sufficient supplement to all other aspects of gameplay, while still staking its own need for strategic thought throughout a 5000 season game.

https://forums.elementalgame.com/400142/page/9/#replies

So the magic system is going to go through some further evolution it would seem.

lol this post is messed up =/

I disagree.

But the problem is that even 1.0x was not very complex if you compare it to other games and if that complexity is further reduced it could get boring and that could be dangerous for Stardock, because they will release a demo that is based on 1.1.

Are you out of your mind? Boring is having an entire book full of non-useful spells. Boring is just getting essense over and over again and having no choices. This one is still a little unbalanced, and has some asinine options (dexterity), but it can actually work from a gameplay and balance perspective, which is something Elemental has never had in the past.

Well to be honest. 1.09E worked better for me than 1.09N does. I had OOM's with E but the CDT's were all but squashed. There was playable complexity to be had as well.

The one Book that you state had only 3 useful spells in it, actually had many, BUT, in order to utilize many of the useful non-combat ones, it forced the SoV, and any imbued Champs for that matter, to retreat or sit around waiting to get that Mana reserve back before once again engaging in any combat, lest that Mana pool be light or empty.

Complexity within a rule set has little bearing on its ability to also be playable. That is simply a cop out and should not even be considered as a FIX. 

Time will fix things, that is a given, but even a SD fanboy like myself cannot just let "Simple but Working" become the mantra of Elemental. I will call BS on that every time. SD can do better, I have played some of SD's better ones myself.

I disagree with the notion that we need more then 5 stats to have engaging character development.  More stats does not automatically mean more or better choices.  In fact most RPG's have no more then 5-6 core stats in them. (i.e. Dragon Age has 6).  It's all about making the stats actually have a significance in the way the character is played.  I'd much rather have fewer stats but have them more meaningful then lots of stats where each has a small to insignificant effect.

I have to strongly disagree with this post.

MoM (EWoM is MoM's spiritual successor) had many RPG elements, and they helped make the game great.

The main character and their heroes should be interesting, varied and powerful and the magic system should reflect this. MoM's magic system was perfect, why reinvent the wheel?

I think a hybrid system for mana is the answer.

All spellcasters should have a stat governing their mana, lets call it Essence simply because it is similar to the old system.

All spellcasters should have their own local mana pool which maxs at the Essence level and replenishes over time (ie like old system).

All spellcasters use their local mana pool JUST for casting spells in combat and when they cast spells in combat those spells are initially fueled by their local mana.

After local mana is exhausted in combat a spellcaster can access another Essence amount of mana from the global pool to cast more spells in combat (ie if they started with full local mana then they can cast 2 * their Essence in spells).

When casting spells out of combat their cost (and any maintenance cost) comes purely from global mana.

Could probably use more thought but a system like this would allow you to still use some magic in combat even if global mana is a precious resource, but still retain the benefits of having a global mana pool for casting big world changing spells.

it's not that 5 stats are necesarry for depth. it's about the distribution of benefits across stats. right now you need to work on three stats for a combat sov, but only one for a magic sov. that either means that A) magic sovs are much easier to make, so you are encouraged to go that way or alternatively) the benefits of int are scaled down so that you need a hell of a lot more of it to be effective; ie there is little benefit to INT. right now i suspect the former, but whichever situation we ned up with, it's unquestionable that, while a combat soc can focus on all or certain stats, all magic sovs are focused on INT, ie, esxatly the same as each other. if nothing else, that's just borring.

tbh the easiest way to fix this is to bring back essense/wisdom for imbuing, and move one or more aspects of INT to wisdom. those 6 stats are an rpg staple and we know that they WORK. imposing an additional spell point system on how much people can cast (or casting times) add additional complexity that is not necesarry. people will get confused that they can't cast despite their mana pool being full. better to make Essense the spell power stat. this way imbuing becomes about getting more casters (logistical benefit) but weaker ones. ie, sauron vs the white council. this was how it was always supposed to be, and best of all it means you're never in the position of telling people "you can't do that because of X."

i would also add an option to spend essense to create fertile land (the whole idea of magic reviving the world) as this would make the food system much more flexible (currently we have a system where you either have enough food that you it's not a factor, or so little that it stops you doing anything, and this is the root of the city spam problem)

btw i completely support ditching combat speed and movement as upgradeable stats. they confused people and didn't sit well with the others. you shouldn't put people in a situation where they have to either guess or calculate which of either CS or strength will be better for their attacking ability. their benefits are better handled by items or by a separate, limited, feats/perk system. or not at all.

btw the fact that this has been the biggest argument generated by the beta says a lot.

great summarry, thanks.

Remember that the other 'Role Playing' style games out there have skills you can increase as well, most of the time.  Combat Speed is a skill; so is Accuracy and Dodge.  Being able to influence these abilities through Character building adds to the flexibility of the system.  Sometimes you may just want to boost one of these abilities, if a Stat influences more than one ability.  Being able to increase sight distance and spell resistance might be fun as well, as long as the point cost reflects how useful those abilities are ingame.

What I wouldn't mind seeing is an actual Skillset, where a character's accuracy is tied to a weapon group. 

Example: Accuracy with Blades, Accuracy with Missile Weapons, Accuracy with Axes, Accuracy with Blunt Weapons, Accuracy with Pole Weapons.  You hire a hero that is very accurate with Blades, which means you'll probably want to get him a nice sword. 

This skillset could also be applied to spells, special abilities, etc.  Example: A character with healing skill can increase the rate of hit point regeneration of his stack each turn, or perhaps heal 'x' number of additional points of damage to a hero/unit by expending a movement point.  A character's special ability (+1 gildar, etc.), can be increased by allocating skill points to that ability.  So your 10% bonus to administation might be boosted to 11%, for example.  Or that 'Crushing Blow' special ability might only take .9 action points now, instead of 1.0.  You get the idea.

Skills go hand in hand with having your master abilities affecting multiple things at once.  Strength should not JUST be a damage stat.  It could also reduce the armor penalty for wearing heavier armor, and heavier weapons might have a strength requirement.  Dex will apparently affect initiative as well as dodge, and probably some other things. Charisma should have multiple effects as well (cheaper goods, cheaper heroes, higher loyalty).

Every skill could be tied to a specific stat (which is how it is generally done).  So a 1 point ability boost should obviously cost more than boosting a single skill.  Or perhaps there's an ability pool (for the 5 main stats), and a separate pool of points for your skills that you gain every level.

Really, is having a Fighter, Mage, Thief and Cleric THAT foreign of an idea in Elemental?  Heck, I see mention of a party (Wizard, Thief, etc.) releasing new terrors into the wild all the time ingame.  It'd be nice if building said adventuring parties was actually part of the game!  As it stands now, thieves, bards, and such are 'passive', i.e. their bonuses are either global or abstracted.  Having skills that you can increase might help bring this flavor into the picture.

Implementing new skills would certainly be down the road a bit (not for 1.1), but in the meantime, we already had some skills in place, why take them off the table now?

No it doesn't. Dex gives you a chance to not be hit in the first place, Constitution merely increases the amount of hits you can take. There's some important differences; dodging a magical attack with a secondary effect for example prevents that effect from triggering, while absorbing the effect doesn't. Hit points require you heal them somehow between battles, dodges leave you unharmed. The net effect is increased survivability, but the devil is in the details (and to an extent, you can extend that to every stat bar Charisma).

No you don't. A sov without many hit points is highly unlikely to survive long enough to do anything if the enemy gets the first combat turn, so Con is essential. Magic focused sov's can focus on Int, combat on Str. Dex is equally useful for both since it provides a dodge chance. If Dex goes on to determine initiative then it would also become an important stat for both types; better to chuck your AoE spells while the enemy is still nicely lined up right?

At present, Charisma is the only 'weak' stat, since it's only useful for stay at home heroes.

charisma should create a leadership stat (cha/int combo?).. buffs your army. anyway.. it doesn't even work for prestige now anyway...

But if the Dodge chance is too low (Accuracy scales with the level and Dodge does not scale) its not worth putting points into Dexterity.

Yeah, the 17 accuracy versus the 5 dodge (assuming 10 dex at 1st level) does have me wondering a bit.  Assuming straight probabilities (i.e. no square/squareroot), that's still only around a 30% or so chance of the dodge working.  And with 2 points being added to accuracy every level, even with putting all 3 points into Dex for that next level, you'd only add 1.5 to your dodge skill, so Dodge becomes less and less effective.

And if square/squareroot is in force, then 5 versus 17 means your chance of success would actually be in the 2-3% range... but Dodge is broken currently in any case, so no time like the present to adjust it as necessary.

Having dodge simply be equal to Dex (no divisor) would make it more interesting.  a 5th level character with a 22 dex would have to contend with a 25 accuracy, which is getting closer to that 50/50 mark.  That being said, dumping all your points into Dex still seems a little wasteful.

It all comes down to how effective you think Dodge should be, then adjusting the calculations appropriately to simulate what you'd like to see.

I think Accuracy is increased by 3 points per level, which makes Dodge even less effective.

Perhaps it would be better if all stats are important for the spells and not only a single stat. This would improve the magic part of the game and could be build in the following way: https://forums.elementalgame.com/400657/page/1/#2830349

Depends on how it works. And which accuracy is used; spell accuracy doesn't increase with level for example.

I like the new system - it is cleaner, more elegant, less prone to ridiculous hero stats. Some tuning is in order, though, but that's not my problem.

What I think might be useful is for stats to remain much as they are, but include skills.

In particular, to specialize in various weapons, types of magic, channeling limit (if that's ever introduced - most likely it will be, because there should be limits to how much mana can be pumped into a single battle - not the least because of autoresolve, city management, etc. Also, have special abilities either as a function of level+taltents+stats (High strength + warrior + level 5 -> crushing blow) or unlockable every few levels. (Feats or similar).

i got the feeling from brad's post that they were struggling to make dodge effective, without having half your attacks do nothing (which is pretty unsatisfying and slows the game down). is there some way around this we can suggest? multiple smaller attacks perhaps?