ZehDon ZehDon

It's nice to see Pirates being held accountable.

It's nice to see Pirates being held accountable.

Jammie Thomas-Rasset, a single mother of four, was found liable by a jury on Wednesday of copyright infringement for using KaZaA peer-to-peer file-sharing network to download the songs over the internet.

She was ordered to pay $US62,500 ($A62,303.74) for each of the 24 songs, a total of $US1.5 million ($A1.5 million) dollars.

End of quote

Oh, shit, did I say being held accountable?  I mean having their lives ruined.  Haha, my bad.

$US62,500.00 per song.  I doubt the bands that recorded those 24 tracks made that much money off of their songs, excluding Concert ticket sales, of course.  I'm all for paying people for their hard work, however I'm also for letting the punishment fit the crime.  Placing someone under so much debt that they'll never outlive it doesn't seem like a fitting punishment to me.

836,030 views 312 replies
Reply #101 Top

Quoting Jafo, reply 87

Why can't rational people not have the 'judgement of a god' to set a death penalty when idiots with the judgement of an antisocial shit can use theirs to kill innocent victims in the first place?

Put politely...fuck them.

They kill....they die.
End of Jafo's quote

 

Nothing about your statements is rational. You would never be fit to be a judge.

 

Reply #102 Top

Quoting kyogre12, reply 94
EDIT: Quotes are being silly.

In principle I'd agree with you, but given the state of our (the US) prisons, I don't think it's much of a deterrent. For many of the poorer criminals, they actually get a better quality of living than they had before. Except in the really bad cases, they're garanteed three meals a day, some sort of entertainment (books, TV, sports, etc), exercise, a bed, etc. Some prisons are obviously worse than others, but for many inmates it's still better than their previous life.

Now if prisons were more like dungeons I would agree with you that they would be a real punishment and/or deterrent. Sleep on the floor, no bed, no blankets, shitty food, *maybe* two meals a day if you're lucky, no books or TV, and no exercise time (if you want exercise, do pushups in your cell).
End of kyogre12's quote

 

Have you spent any real time in jail? Its not the "resort" some would like to think it is. Prison is not just about punishment, it is also about rehabilitation as well. You don't want the criminal coming out worse then when they went in? The one's you can't help you put away forever.

Reply #103 Top

Quoting ZehDon, reply 100

Not familiar with the Innocent Project, are you?  Thousands - literally, thousands - of inmates have been freed from their "rock solid" convictions thanks to the use of DNA evidence.  In this situation, DNA can't free them; Copyright Holders have hundreds of millions of dollars to beat back any defence they can muster, not to mention any and all appeals, and it's literally a case of "if the shoe fits".
I'd want a fair Legal System where downloading music is as punishable as stealing that music from a store.  I'd want a system that doesn't breed poverty while filling already filled coffers with more money.
End of ZehDon's quote

 

How dare you use facts. O:) DNA is the work of the devil. }:)

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Reply #104 Top

Starkers...

I STILL don't care what happens to her.

I do care about her kids...
End of quote

Jafo, if in reality you care anything about the kids, who are completely innocent in this, then you MUST care about the mother.  Irrespective of what she did, she is their lifeline until they are of age to fend for themselves, and given it was not a capital offense, the punishment should fit the crime, which in this case it does not, therefore punishing and needlessly depriving those children.

While I respect you in various ways, you come across as a gun ho shoot first and ask questions later kind of person, someone with a vigilante frame of mind, and that I cannot respect.  Your brand of justice would see the innocent painted with the same brush as the guilty, and they would also die because there is no room for compassion or mercy.

Top marks tho for equating me with Hitler and/or Stalin....
End of quote

Okay, I used the names, but your harsh, uncompromising attitude equates to the dictatorial mindset each possessed, so it wasn't hard to make the comparison

Like I said, the more civilised we become (meaning all the laws/attitudes our society supports/you support), the less civilised we become.

What you've basically done here is state that the rights of Copyright holders exceed the basic human right at a decent life.
End of quote

Yup, that just about says it.... greed out of control and fuck what's fair/makes sense.

Reply #105 Top

Okay, if I may offer an observation, and it is only valid for those that think it is.

In any conversation or discussion there will always be differences in the 'right' or 'wrong' of the subject, no matter what the subject.

The topic of the OP will always cause for strong opinions and feelings to be expressed.

But, as I always like to, lets cut out the BS and get to the core of the problem, which is people having the unfortunately make up that allows them to come to the conclusion that breaking the law is okay if they are able to rationalize the factors involved.  'But officer the reason I was speeding is I was late for my meeting'.  you know what I mean.

Here is my bottom line take on this discussion, the committing of an offense that society has deemed wrong has gone on, lets see, forever.  Some may say since the dawn of time.

No amount of punishment, fines, public flogging, humiliation and prisons have been able to change it.  Rehabilitation probably at best is 50/50 at doing any good.  Like the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. 

It always come down to the 'Haves' and the 'Have Nots'.

It is now time for all the finger pointing to stop, get up from your chair, go in front of the mirror, look at the person straight in the eyes and explain how the problem gets fixed.  My bottom line, if in all these many years that humans has been on this planet they haven't been able to fix the problem, screw it, kill them all!

:sun:  

Of course it's just my opinion.

Reply #106 Top

Quoting Philly0381, reply 105
Okay, if I may offer an observation, and it is only valid for those that think it is.

In any conversation or discussion there will always be differences in the 'right' or 'wrong' of the subject, no matter what the subject.

The topic of the OP will always cause for strong opinions and feelings to be expressed.

But, as I always like to, lets cut out the BS and get to the core of the problem, which is people having the unfortunately make up that allows them to come to the conclusion that breaking the law is okay if they are able to rationalize the factors involved.  'But officer the reason I was speeding is I was late for my meeting'.  you know what I mean.

Here is my bottom line take on this discussion, the committing of an offense that society has deemed wrong has gone on, lets see, forever.  Some may say since the dawn of time.

No amount of punishment, fines, public flogging, humiliation and prisons have been able to change it.  Rehabilitation probably at best is 50/50 at doing any good.  Like the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. 

It always come down to the 'Haves' and the 'Have Nots'.

It is now time for all the finger pointing to stop, get up from your chair, go in front of the mirror, look at the person straight in the eyes and explain how the problem gets fixed.  My bottom line, if in all these many years that humans has been on this planet they haven't been able to fix the problem, screw it, kill them all!

 

Of course it's just my opinion.
End of Philly0381's quote

 

Of course people should be punished when they break a law,  but to some they are still living in a Stone Age mentality and believe that all punishments should be the maximum. We have to strive to be better than that or else all of our lofty ideals are nothing more than a joke and we deserve what happens to us. Hence why a theocracy is the worse form of government there is.

Reply #107 Top

Death penalty isn't about being a deterrent....fuckwits will always be fuckwits.

What it absolutely GUARANTEES however is exactly ZERO chance of repeat offenders.
End of quote
]

 

 

and what gives YOU the right to decide if someone lives and dies?. The death penalty is morally, ethically and humanly wrong.  Killing someone because they robbed, raped, murdered etc is not a punishment for the offender, Oh no, they are dead so they no longer suffer punishment. But now the punishment hands over to the families of both the victim and the offender. I agree justice needs to be served and jailing for life is enough but why must we as a modern civilization inflict punishment on the family of the offender. They did nothing wrong so why are they being made to suffer. The victims family can get some sort of closure with the court process jailing the asshole who committed the crime in the first place.

Reply #108 Top

The victim's family did nothing wrong...so why should THEY suffer?

Why should THEIR taxes support the killer?

Let's ignore the victim [the legal system does] ...he/she didn't do anything wrong, either.

No...

Let's all pretend we are noble and right and civilized...and die for the rights of the criminal.

Talk about getting indignation for entirely the wrong cause.

Reply #109 Top

Quoting Jafo, reply 108

The victim's family did nothing wrong...so why should THEY suffer?

Why should THEIR taxes support the killer?
End of Jafo's quote

Somehow I knew that taxes would be involved with your views. :rolleyes: It costs more to execute a criminal than to keep them in prison.

 

Let's ignore the victim [the legal system does] ...he/she didn't do anything wrong, either.

No...
End of quote

If that bit of nonsense were true than the victims would have to foot the entire bill for the prosecution instead of the State.

Let's all pretend we are noble and right and civilized...and die for the rights of the criminal.

Talk about getting indignation for entirely the wrong cause.
End of quote

Rights apply to EVERYONE EQUALLY or they apply to no one, otherwise they aren't rights. I don't know about where you live, but the justice system here is that one is innocent UNTIL proven guilty in a court of law. There are no "what if" games about it either.
 

Nowhere did I say I want/have 'the right to decide if someone lives or dies'...so don't get all antsy with me.  I want SOCIETY to take responsibility for JUSTICE, not for getting all touchy-feely about the rights of the perpetrator in the face of his violation of others' rights.
End of quote

Society does take responsibility for justice instead of leaving it all up to the average person.  An example of citizen justice is a lynch mob.

 

Meanwhile...I cannot get too involved in this 'debate'....it appears I need to invade Poland.....
End of quote

Godwin's Law which means an automatic lose for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

 

I don't know if you're just doing all of this just to be contrary, or what?

Reply #110 Top

Oh crap it costs more.

Don't be ridiculous.

As for where I am....western world, Ex [ish] British Empire, as was/is most of it [the world, that is].

The point I'm painfully clearly failing to make is it is beyond time that the rights of a criminal took second stage to the rights of their victim/s.

The act of 'criminality' disqualifies them from arguments of equality...unless they have a superior 'right' to kill others that I didn't know about.

Fine...get all protective of human rights...take the smoking gun out of their hands....give them the process of Law [pretend seeing them actually do it does not mean they did it]...then...when found guilty all fair and square and honky-dory THEN bend over backwards and respect the rights of the victim/s and not the victimizer.

Yes, all are equal before the Law [hence no means test for punishment/fine and what this whole bullshit thread is about] but once due process is served there is a defined, determined perpetrator and victim.  THEN side on the rights of the victim....he and HIS family deserves the sympathy of the court and society, not the person who made him/them victims.

And citing Wiki as an authority means instant lose to you, sorry.

Reply #111 Top

Quoting Jafo, reply 110

Oh crap it costs more.

Don't be ridiculous.

As for where I am....western world, Ex [ish] British Empire, as was/is most of it [the world, that is].

The point I'm painfully clearly failing to make is it is beyond time that the rights of a criminal took second stage to the rights of their victim/s.

The act of 'criminality' disqualifies them from arguments of equality...unless they have a superior 'right' to kill others that I didn't know about.

Fine...get all protective of human rights...take the smoking gun out of their hands....give them the process of Law [pretend seeing them actually do it does not mean they did it]...then...when found guilty all fair and square and honky-dory THEN bend over backwards and respect the rights of the victim/s and not the victimizer.

Yes, all are equal before the Law [hence no means test for punishment/fine and what this whole bullshit thread is about] but once due process is served there is a defined, determined perpetrator and victim.  THEN side on the rights of the victim....he and HIS family deserves the sympathy of the court and society, not the person who made him/them victims.

And citing Wiki as an authority means instant lose to you, sorry.

 
 
End of Jafo's quote

 

I'm sorry, but I just can't take you seriously anymore. You've just destroyed all of your credibility. You just can't take defeat gracefully.

 

Mods. Please close this thread. There is nothing else to say in it.

Reply #112 Top

You are free to not take me seriously...as is your wont.

However, I see no 'need' for the thread to be closed so it will remain open....;)

"defeat"?

I almost missed that.

What...I suffered 'defeat' over my declaration of a total disregard for the fate of the woman in the OP?

How?  Did I do a 180 and now beg for her to be free from penalty?

Dang...must be invisible ink again....;)

Reply #113 Top

The victim's family did nothing wrong...so why should THEY suffer?

Why should THEIR taxes support the killer?

Let's ignore the victim [the legal system does] ...he/she didn't do anything wrong, either.
End of quote

If only we were speaking about true victims here... but we're not.  The creative talent(s) behind the downloaded music aren't even bit players in this debacle of so-called justice... nor do they own their own music anymore.  No, the record labels now own it.... and they are far from being real victims.  They have had things so well stitched up for so long, they are guilty of legalised theft.  They may own the copyrights, but they are worse than the pirates for cheating the artists of their dues.

To show these parasites any sympathy at all is a miscarriage of justice... and to me, shows a brainwashed/pathetic mindset.

:thumbsdown:

Reply #114 Top

Quoting starkers, reply 113

If only we were speaking about true victims here... but we're not.  The creative talent(s) behind the downloaded music aren't even bit players in this debacle of so-called justice... nor do they own their own music anymore.  No, the record labels now own it.... and they are far from being real victims.  They have had things so well stitched up for so long, they are guilty of legalised theft.  They may own the copyrights, but they are worse than the pirates for cheating the artists of their dues.

To show these parasites any sympathy at all is a miscarriage of justice... and to me, shows a brainwashed/pathetic mindset.

End of starkers's quote

 

You're wasting your time on him. He's nothing more than a flamer and has absolutely no credibility at all..  His kind are why we have a justice system in the first place. To protect us all from that sort of ignorance.

Reply #115 Top

The point I'm painfully clearly failing to make is it is beyond time that the rights of a criminal took second stage to the rights of their victim/s.
End of quote

Well I'm with you on that, and I'm confident that we have lots of company.

I still say the $1.5 million in the original post blows way past that and reflects a fundamental failure within the "justice" system.  Witch hunts and goat sacrifices do nothing but undermine faith in authority and ultimately destroy the order they are intended to keep.

Reply #116 Top

The 'problem' with this is there's no real option in place for a means tested penalty system.

Copyright Law and penalty was traditionally something limited to commercial entities but with the advent of the net and domestic access to mechanisms of infringement the 'little people' get hit too....

It'd be utopian to have in place an un-rort-able system of matching a person's capacity to pay with appropriate penalty...so someone the size of MS was penalized tens of millions whilst an individual might get 1000s for the same offence [and impact].

Doubt it'll ever happen tho.

Reply #117 Top

Quoting Bichur, reply 58

except upon his or its necessary removal in a manner not dangerous to the public health;


 

you don't call hazmat for a cold = no crime
End of Bichur's quote

I think you are misunderstanding..... if the person is "removed" from public there is no crime.   Also you don't call hazmat in an outbreak.... you call the Center for Disease Control.  You call hazmat if there is hazerdous materials that need to be disposed.  Hence the HAZerdousMATerials.

But that is exactly the point.... laws don't always have one interpretation.  And innocent people can get caught up if they misinterpret the law.

Quoting Jafo, reply 110

The point I'm painfully clearly failing to make is it is beyond time that the rights of a criminal took second stage to the rights of their victim/s.

The act of 'criminality' disqualifies them from arguments of equality...unless they have a superior 'right' to kill others that I didn't know about.


End of Jafo's quote

Exactly.... if the victims and criminals can easily be identified.  That is not always the case, and there is a factor of human error involved.  So if you execute someone who is inoccent he/she becomes the victim.  Then the law put the rights of the victim second.... like I said its not black and white.

Quoting Jafo, reply 110
Oh crap it costs more.

Fine...get all protective of human rights...take the smoking gun out of their hands....give them the process of Law [pretend seeing them actually do it does not mean they did it]...then...when found guilty all fair and square and honky-dory THEN bend over backwards and respect the rights of the victim/s and not the victimizer.
 

End of Jafo's quote

That works well if the due process of law works well.  Unfortunatly it doesn't.... and to this day we have failed to make it perfect.  So that is why the concept of reasonable doubt was invented, and the death penatly was abolished in most parts of the U.S.  To account for human error....

Quoting Jafo, reply 110

Yes, all are equal before the Law [hence no means test for punishment/fine and what this whole bullshit thread is about] but once due process is served there is a defined, determined perpetrator and victim.  THEN side on the rights of the victim....he and HIS family deserves the sympathy of the court and society, not the person who made him/them victims.
 

End of Jafo's quote

All are equal before the Law?  You really do live in a fantasy world don't you.....

Quoting Jafo, reply 116

It'd be utopian to have in place an un-rort-able system of matching a person's capacity to pay with appropriate penalty...so someone the size of MS was penalized tens of millions whilst an individual might get 1000s for the same offence [and impact].

Doubt it'll ever happen tho.
End of Jafo's quote

Or maybe I misunderstood.... its difficult to follow your arguement if you keep contradicting yourself. :-S

Reply #118 Top

I'd like to say something about the concept of justice in general.

The biblical line we have in the current bible is 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth'.

In the Qur'an it says 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, and the instigator is the guilty party.'

There is an important qualifier in that last condition. It speaks of the relationship between the victim and the offender. The offender is to be punished by the victim in a way that is proportionate to the offense. The victim is the one who has the personal right to retribution. As the instigator is the guilty party, and not the retaliator, the offender cannot seek retribution from the victim after they have taken the punishment, as retaliation is not instigation, and so there is no guilt placed on the victim. This means that by that law, there cannot be back and forth revenge attacks.

That's not to say that back and forth retribution won't occur. Only that it is not Just according to the law.

Some people say that to return in kind makes you just as 'bad' as the original offender, as you are doing the same thing. For example, if a person breaks my arm and I respond by breaking that person's arm, then I would be labeled as being just as guilty with this line of thinking, on the basis that I have committed the same foul act. This is saying something illogical. The error here is in equating instigation with retaliation. In this example, if I had not first had my arm broken, then I would not have broken the offenders arm in turn. And so the first act is one of instigation, while the second act is one of retaliation, meaning that they are not equal, and so no guilt can be placed on the victim. If you were to have a short and general definition of injustice, it would be something along the lines of 'To treat equally that which is not equal.'

The victim is the one who has the personal right to retribution. Meaning, that if someone breaks my arm, unrelated Jason from the neighbouring suburb does not have the right to break the arm of the offender. In general, no unrelated person has the right to enact the punishment. In the case of murder, the next of kin has the right to take the life of the offender, without due cause for counter-retribution by the next of kin of the original offender.

I have heard some people misinterpret the 'eye for an eye' analogy in this case, by saying: 'You killed my brother, and so I kill your brother.' This is obviously wrong, as the punishment targets the offender for reasons of the offense.

The bible also says 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.'

Taken in context, what this means is that no imperfect human being has the right to administer biblical justice in any case that does not personally pertain to them. It does not mean that a person is disallowed from taking their rights.

The biggest problem with a person enacting their retributive rights is the justification process. A person must justify the guilt of the alleged offender to themselves without a shadow of a doubt through evidence and eye-witness accounting. Often times people will act on mere suspicions and heresay. If the person cannot soundly make this justification, then retribution is unjust, even if the alleged offender is actually guilty.

Normally this type of investigating requires a combination of highly skilled and expertly equipped people. But even these people and this equipment make plenty of mistakes. Only an omniscient being could possibly always be completely accurate in all judgements and know the exact details of all events ever, as well as all intentions behind all actions.

The point of all this is that the courts cannot administer justice because the entire process of investigating and judging is subject to errors at every step of the way. So, there should be no judicial body called the 'Justice System'. Also, individuals cannot always take their retribution in a Just manner, as they cannot always justify their judgement, even though they are directly involved and as such would be privvy and closer to the events.

Neither can the courts allow personal retribution, as to enforce it and prevent unjust counter-retribution, the courts would first have to justify the original retribution, which they cannot actually do.

I didn't even get into how a person is supposed to accurately calculate the exact and Just punishment for every case. As actions are measured by intention, it basically means that one would have to be a mind reader in order to know what is truly deserved.

Government, police and courts are necessary to keep civilization civil, but they are not nearly about being Just. 'The Justice System' should be renamed to something like 'The Civil Order System'. Don't look to justice from human people, as even the ones who would whole-heartedly adhere to it are not always able to know it and enact it.

So, if you believe in God, and you believe that God is Just, then you must be of the belief that everyone always gets exactly what they deserve, as otherwise God would not be Just. This should be quite a comfort in the face of so many unjust actions by people in the world.

Otherwise, we will never be a Just people as human beings, as long as we ever occupy this world.

 

Reply #119 Top

this is why i no longer buy music from anybody affiliated with these thugs. they are out of control, and i hope these are death throes. they are scum, simple enough.

Reply #120 Top

Equal in penalty....as in no means-test.  The Roller gets the same parking fine as the rusty VeeDub.  When it comes down to monetary penalty the Law has no favourites, however hardship can be argued for leniency.  That is all.

Cynics claim the rich are advantaged because they are rich...but in truth that is a glass-half-empty argument as there WOULD BE no "effect" of unfairness of comparative impact if 'ability to pay' was positively factored into the penalty imposed.

As I said, more than once.... match the crime's punishment to the person's ability to pay.

If it REALLY hurts this woman [as everyone claims is unjust] then it SHOULD ALSO hurt corporations in commensurate scale and proportion.

If the penalty bankrupts her...then it would be only fair [just] that corporations entities of high commercial value/strength are bankrupted too.

Where the idea of reduced 'responsibility' falls down is with the artifice of drug dealers using the underaged to do their dirty work as they aren't criminally 'responsible'/culpable.  Instead, the 'protection' of the Law is exploited by the narcotics industry to the child's ultimate peril.  Useless protection, that is.

The concept [industry] of torrent/warez distribution is not a lot different....let the 'little people' [often children] do the distributing/facilitation while the 'entities' behind the piracy industry prosper untouched.

Reply #121 Top

Cynics claim the rich are advantaged because they are rich...but in truth that is a glass-half-empty
End of quote

Are you serious? How old are you? Get a "good" lawyer, judge in the pocket. Corruptions abound in the rich legal system. And favor"its.

Reply #122 Top

I didn't mention anything about Lawyers and their affordability or not.

I am talking about the Law as it pertains to penalty.

I am 56.

Does that clarify it for you? 

Reply #123 Top

Corruption abounds for the rich and poor. For the rich it's a game. For the poor it's their life. For they're denied the abilities of cold hard cash, getting you a lawyer. I don't know about you, but I'll take my lawyer against any learning free lawyer. I'd say the odds of my winning are pretty good. Surely you realize that.  And why is that again. Oh yeah. Money! [not necessarily me]

And I'm mentioning lawyers because you fight fire with fire. So it's only right to fight the law with lawyer. Eye for an eye.

I am talking about the Law as it pertains to penalty.
End of quote
Indeed..... Do you see now the error of their way. It surely will continue till elections. Maybe. If enough people are interested. Then they'll make some new rules.

As for your age, just makin sure your an adult. hehe

Reply #124 Top

Quoting Jafo, reply 122
...I am talking about the Law as it pertains to penalty...
End of Jafo's quote


A criminal saga that began in December with a string of superlatives — the largest, longest and most widespread Ponzi scheme in history — ended the same way on Monday as Bernard L. Madoff was sentenced to 150 years in prison, the maximum for his crimes.
End of quote

Source.

Bernard Lawrence "Bernie" Madoff (pronounced /ˈmeɪdɒf/;[3] born April 29, 1938)
End of quote

Source.

Madoff, around 71 years old, was sentenced to 150 years in prison.  To see his release date, he would need to be roughly 221 years old.  Ignoring that no human being has ever been recorded to have lived over 150 years, this is a death sentence.  I won't discuss Madoff's crimes here - he is very guilty, and his crimes were very calculated and deliberate - however, sentencing the man to even 40 years would have been a death sentence.  An additional 110 years serves what purpose?

Reply #125 Top

Serves what purpose?

Not a lot, however if you commit a raft of crimes and the Justice system determines the penalties are to be served consecutively other than concurrently then that is the result.

1 crime may be 20 years....and you might see release....3 crimes may be 60 years...so you may NOT see release.

Is that a fault of the justice system or an indication of it being applied correctly?

I'd suggest the latter...;)