1.09 AI Observations

from Elemental Forums

1.09 AI observations

small map, 6-7 opponents, all set to Hard.

--AI Sov and Champions (AIS/C) don't prioritize long-range attacks on my Sov/Champions, rarely using spell attacks as first/default action

    IMHO The most dangerous units should be assumed to be the Sov/Champs. But normally an AIS/C will target my summoned units (Rokoth, etc). Sometimes an AIS/C will cast one mass damage spell (Blizzard) but never two spells in a turn.  Never had both a AISov and an AIChamp both target my Sov/Champ 2x in same
round.  Most commonly they move and cast one spell, then I toast them.  Does the AI prioritize getting long-distance spells to attack my Sov/Champ immediately?
    

--AI Sovs beg for peace when I'm thumping them but never make an offer to sweeten the deal.

--Strategy which always works, ~200 turns to win

    Hire any Champion with IQ 10 or more, Imbue them, then travel with them so they all gain XP with me. Keep pumping up their essence then intelligence. Go after any city you find. Very quickly they're powerful as the game is currently balanced. Then use summoned creatures to put one unit in each town you capture, and by about turn 100-125 I'm capturing every city I find and only limit is how fast I move.Oh and when I get mana regenerating kids the game is nearly over. None of the AI Sov's stand a chance.  Haven't even been ever close to having this strategy lose.

--AI seems to undervalue my Sov/Champs in rating

One mass damage spell wipes out armies. 

 

--If I go after AI-built towns right away, rather than letting them build, I always win. They never come at my early cities hard.

Don't understand the dynamic here, but I can leave the wimpiest unit in my first few cities and nobody attacks it for 60 rounds.

--Resistance to magic is needed

        Once the above is dealt with, Resistance really seems important as a balancing tool.  If we don't have it, magic will mostly eliminate the need for
building advanced units until you get to the "Ludicrous" ones (dragon, etc.)

elemental
6,537 views 12 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

"--AI seems to undervalue my Sov/Champs in rating"

 

I just want to highlight this particular point. I noticed that the game has no clue how to value spell casters or skills. As a result, the AI will attack a low combat rating caster thinking they would win only to get wiped by a pair of spells. There really needs to be some modifier that we can set for spells and skills that would buff the combat rating of someone who can use them. This would allow the AI to at least think about the dangers of facing off against such a foe. Ideally they should also be FFing these particularly dangerous opponents (instead of all focusing on a weak decoy), but at least it would be a start at a strategic level.

Reply #2 from Stardock Forums Top

As far as resistance to magic is concerned, the base defence setting seems to determine whether magic will hit or not, only exception seems to be "arcane strike" and possibly "morrigan's fire". There is one particular monster ObscenelyDefensive Golem, with ridiculously weak attack. So if your def is high too, there is a lot of swinging and missing. Magic resistance should be totally different from normal defence, and preferably should be weak against opposing element.

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

What Frogboy needs is help with the logic on the AI...  I have seen his video cast of multi-threading the AI to enable it to do more, and that is a GREAT START! The AI needs a lot more logic, there are many, many smart and critical thinking folks here in these forums.  Take them and invite them to post in a AI forum themed room and have different AI weaknesses in different threads to be strengthened.  AI done right is a massive undertaking.  Please do it right.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Gene1966, reply 3
What Frogboy needs is help with the logic on the AI...  I have seen his video cast of multi-threading the AI to enable it to do more, and that is a GREAT START! The AI needs a lot more logic, there are many, many smart and critical thinking folks here in these forums.  Take them and invite them to post in a AI forum themed room and have different AI weaknesses in different threads to be strengthened.  AI done right is a massive undertaking.  Please do it right.
End of Gene1966's quote
Or you could have read stuff over the last month and realize that the AI isn't being worked on really till 1.1. Period. Yeah a tweak here and there, but with the changes coming in 1.1 there was no sense making any big ai changes that would be undone by 1.1.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

AI Sovs beg for peace when I'm thumping them but never make an offer to sweeten the deal.
End of quote

I've found this to be a serious issue.  In fact, I once had an AI who wanted me to pay him thousands of gold pieces even though he only had one stack of units and one city left.  There is literally no reason to ever declare peace once war breaks out, because by the time the AI will actually make peace on even terms, they're already on their last leg.


AI seems to undervalue my Sov/Champs in rating
End of quote

Seriously undervalues archers, as well.  This is particularly egregious when the AI is sending in darklings that get one move, and they will literally never close the distance, or if you can cast 'haste' (which is still bugged).  The AI throws endless waves of unarmored spearmen and axemen at you that just die before they close the distance.


The biggest problem is that the AI still runs its sovereign straight into my empire and ends the game.  Just last night I was having a game on ridiculous and faced off against Krax.  He'd somehow inherited all the other empires in the time it took me to conquer Magnar, so he was throwing wave after wave of weak infantry at me, feeding my archers and champions.  I cleave through two massive stacks with no casualties and take his first city, and then his sovereign shows up with a stack half the strength of the two I just fought, gets killed in my territory, and the game ends.  Talk about anticlimatic...

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Gene1966, reply 3
What Frogboy needs is help with the logic on the AI...  I have seen his video cast of multi-threading the AI to enable it to do more, and that is a GREAT START! The AI needs a lot more logic, there are many, many smart and critical thinking folks here in these forums.  Take them and invite them to post in a AI forum themed room and have different AI weaknesses in different threads to be strengthened.  AI done right is a massive undertaking.  Please do it right.
End of Gene1966's quote

a better idea would be to have Stardock fly a few of us back to Michigan where we could:

a ) discuss our strategies in person

b ) have someone watch how we play and see our exploits, our strategy, hear our gripes, etc.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

In my game yesterday, an AI killed another AI.  This is the first game where that has happened for me.  Maybe it's just coincidence though.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

I saw an AI to be killed by other AI several times already.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

Sovereigns have painfully low hitpoints, they are glass cannons. It's like early European combat, you just agree not to attack the other guys leaders out of respect for nobility. However in my mind the AI Sovereigns should never venture out to be attacked, should run from any threat and so on.. or have 3 times the hitpoint potentials. Or have spell resistance or something.. I can't list how many times I've wiped out a kingdom by virtue of popping their Sovereign on a cheap shot.. Then auto resolve and win or loos in that fight, i win because their kingdom dissolves.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Jandurin, reply 7
In my game yesterday, an AI killed another AI.  This is the first game where that has happened for me.  Maybe it's just coincidence though.
End of Jandurin's quote

I had a Ridiculous AI taken out by a Challengin AI, even though the victor is suppose to not be as good. So much for having one strong AI take over a bunch of weaker ones and build a true super power that would be hard to beat.

Reply #11 from Stardock Forums Top

at least its not as bad as Civs 5 when Siam takes out japan and Germany.... almost over AI.

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

Sovereigns have painfully low hitpoints, they are glass cannons. It's like early European combat, you just agree not to attack the other guys leaders out of respect for nobility. However in my mind the AI Sovereigns should never venture out to be attacked, should run from any threat and so on.. or have 3 times the hitpoint potentials. Or have spell resistance or something.. I can't list how many times I've wiped out a kingdom by virtue of popping their Sovereign on a cheap shot.. Then auto resolve and win or loos in that fight, i win because their kingdom dissolves.
End of quote

Sovereigns are just too damn random, period. Karavox is like, the model of your average "good" NPC sovereign. Mid 20s attk and def, mid 20s mana, but craptacular HPs.

The rest? Either they're completely worthless (as in have never gained xp and never bought equipment, and run in to fight HTH), or they're completely random. (Last game one of Karavox's kids had 67!!11111 Attk. Only my level 7 Ice Lord had that kind of power, or Umberdoth baddies in the wilds. The rest of his stats? Normal. Died to one spell.)

I'm guessing the code that generates the NPCs is as rough as the AI. It works, but it's still not that balanced or using a lot of thoughtful input.

Really that's what you can say about everything listed in this thread. There's code that establishes it and is functional, it's just not balanced or developed fully. I mean...I just realized last game that Elementium is useless in game. Truly. You can buy Legendary Gear from the trader without Elementium, and produce troops without it too. You don't even need to have researched General Armor to unlock Magical Armor in the Sorcery tree.

Functional. Just not balanced or developed. All we can really do is wait. It's hard to know how much they are planning on changing, and knowing where they need input. It's kind of....yeah, to be asking for beta-esqe guidance from Stardock after release, but they really could stand to say "we want to know where x is failing right now", please tell us.

I will say, I've enjoyed magic a little more now that it actually makes some numerical sense....but holy crap is it over powered. It went from barely functional, missing 90% of the time and doing wildly inaccurate damage...to being almost faultless and completely overpowered. The displacement effect spells are just ridiculous.

Maybe it's the fact that by the time you've researched the uber AOE spells, you've already got the shards and the int to bump the damage up to "kill half a stack in one shot" levels. It would be better if the AI were producing meaningful troops, but all it takes is ~3 aoes and almost anything will be 1/2 dead. Defense being both about magic and physical combat is a problem too, because the only way to stop magic is to have def, which makes you invincible in combat.

Really, if the AI were producing troops in platemail and max experience, players would be gouging their eyes out I think. But a whole combat rework is coming so, again....what can we really do but wait?