starting spellbooks should be by purpose, not by element

from Elemental Forums

i really, strongly, believe that the spells should be divided up into spellbooks by purpose not by element. the spellbook system is really silly at the moment, and this is the easiest way to fix it without redesigning all the spells. that's not to say you should remove the elemental shards that increase elemental spells: that is really important. let me explain.

currently you choose between the elemental books at character creation. this creates the ridiculous situation where you either need all of them (because you're interested in magic and you have no idea what shards you might end up with, as does the ai) or you save a load of points and take one of them (because if you're not focused on shards and magic, they effectively all do the same thing anyway, and a lot of the good spells are either elementless, or come in later books). if you are new to the game you end up picking the books you want to specialize in and if you do this you are stupid, because picking them does not help you specialize at all. why allow new players to make a decision they will almost invariably get wrong?

the later spell books are split up by purpose, but still contain elemental spells. it would be much better if this was done consistently all through the game.

this way you choose from the book of lesser destruction, the book of lesser conjuring, the book of lesser defense etc. so instead of choosing an arbitrary "flavour," you choose something that actually reflects your chosen game style (or that of the AI sov in question). this way it doesn't matter what elemental shard you get because all the books contain spells from different elements. if you have the book of destruction and find a fire shard, then you use fireball. if you find a water shard you use snowball, or whatever. the whole thing then becomes much less of a turkey shoot. and if you want to choose all the books, you get even more power per shard you find, just as it was always intended.

even better, this way you can link the various books together very neatly on the technology tree. if you start with the book of lesser summoning, you can then research the book of greater summoning. if not, you have to start from scratch.

really, i get the idea that people want to specialize their characters in ice magic, i really do. but so long as spell performance is tied to shards (as it should be) then giving them the illusion of this choice is a really bad idea.

the ai sovs don't choose different books for ai reasons. so if you choose anything but all the books you're playing a different game to them, and that's not the idea. if you split spells by purpose instead of element then both players and the ai can make interesting choices that do not gimp them in any way.

 

elemental
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Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

Better to redesign the elements "by purpose," at least if you still have a hankering that the game's title be strongly reflected in the content. Replacing the Element books with Functional books like you suggest would certainly be an improvement in UI/gameplay terms, but it could easily leave the magic system still feeling rather generic instead of consistently evoking the world of Elemental (i.e. helping with immersion).

Really, I'd prefer the elements to be redesigned by 'character,' for lack of a better word (kind of like your playstyle view, but well-mixed with the still-too-minimalist game cosmology). There are plenty of threads and posts around here about tweaking Fire to emphasize destruction, Earth to emphasize protection, and whatnot. The Life and Death books make a pretty plausible catch-all for plenty of spells like Reveal, kind of like the Sorcery books do in MoM.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

it is a really good idea to make the elements more unique (ie, ice magic has a slowing effect, fire damages over time). most people want that i think.

but you still get the completely random crapshoot of getting the right shards to match your spellbooks. until you make these two decisions independent instead of co-dependent you will still get

- new players gimping themselves

- more incidences of me having to restart games because i have a crummy starting location

- the premade sovs not specializing at all for practical and ai reasons

personally i'm of the belief that if the ai can't be made to use a game mechanic it shouldn't be in the game, because i want to be playing the same game as the other 9/10th of the world i'm playing in.

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

I'm also against schools like Evocation (destruction), conjuration, and divination.

Magic is already way too bland. Intentionally making it any more generic gets an overripe tomato from me.

I already outlined (only briefly) in another post that "things" should have tags attaches that explain to the AI what this does and how well. Then the AI can make an educated guess without having to calculate every effect down to the last detail.

I think shards should have some effect on magic but not a devastating one. If you want to play an earth channeler and there's not a single earth shard on the map, that would suck.

Another way would be to make shard just elemental shards.  By choosing the correct building, the player can modify them to a different shard.
There should be some randomness, though, like a shard sometimes building the element it wants to build.
Once assigned, the shard is fixed to that element so they don't become adjustable spell buffs.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

I will be redesigning the spell books to fit the MoM system, that was balanced, interesting and fun.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Well, the game title is Elemental. So what is the connection of this game to the word of "Elemental"? I don't understand

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

I like the spells divided by Element.  I think it should go a step further and let you customize even further by element.  Similar to MoM.  You could select all your points in Chaos and be awesome at that one discipline, with several extra benefits by specializing (harder to dispel, faster research, etc.).  Also in MoM, just because you selected Chaos does not mean you were going to start next to a Chaos Node.  The random is what makes it fun.  I actually think they are making the game easier by continually guaranteeing a good starting position by seeding a gold mine and food.  If you don't like where they started you, wander around a little bit and find one you like better.

I will be redesigning the spell books to fit the MoM system, that was balanced, interesting and fun.
End of quote

If you do MoM, was split by books of magic not the type of spell.  You selected Chaos or Sorcery not summons or enchantments.  In MoM, you could select a talent that made you better at a particular type of spell.  But the spell books by "element" in MoM

 

I would like to see Elemental give you six points, and you could select one of each kind or specialize.  Maybe even just try combos.  3 earth, 3 water.  If you don't start by an earth or water shard, too bad.  I can always explore and find one.

Earth

Fire

Water

Air

Life (or Death)

Arcane

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Robert, reply 3
I'm also against schools like Evocation (destruction), conjuration, and divination.

Magic is already way too bland. Intentionally making it any more generic gets an overripe tomato from me.

/snip

I think shards should have some effect on magic but not a devastating one. If you want to play an earth channeler and there's not a single earth shard on the map, that would suck.

End of Robert's quote

 

i am not proposing schools of magic. i am not proposing any changes to spells.

most spellbooks are ALREADY by purpose/school. all i am suggesting is consistency. the current starting spell books do not allow you to specialize your character by play style. they do not allow you to give him "flavor" and specialize visually. they just allow you to gimp yourself, or scrounge some extra char points

if you want a game where you can choose to specialize your character in an element, then you should be asking for the non-randomisation of shards. i am assuming this will not change. and if it's not going to change then elemental starting books should be ditched.

Quoting KingHobbit, reply 6
  If you don't start by an earth or water shard, too bad.  I can always explore and find one.

End of KingHobbit's quote

random game mechanics are bad. this will become massively apparent in multiplayer. with any other bad luck starting location thing, you can always adjust your playing style. with this you cannot. this is just a randomly applied kick in the crotch for new players.

instead of dismissing my argument as wining, will someone actually make a good argument for ANYTHING the current system adds to the game?

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

random game mechanics are bad. this will become massively apparent in multiplayer. with any other bad luck starting location thing, you can always adjust your playing style. with this you cannot. this is just a randomly applied kick in the crotch for new players.
End of quote

I did not say you were whining, I said I prefer random, bad luck is part of it.  How is it fun if you start with everything you need?  I also said the I prefer the schools be broken down by element.  I also said I want more specialization by element, and yes, I also said if I don't start by the matching shard, thats the breaks.  I guess I will need to explore and find one.  Too me that is fun.  If I lose because it, than I lose.