Trojasmic Trojasmic

I'm liking some of the changes in 1.0.8

I'm liking some of the changes in 1.0.8

Just wanted to say that I applaud the work on the weapons/armor value changes. 

I like that the spells are being fixed (min/max) and better descriptions on the spells themselves.

I'm still trying to work through how best to strategize given the extra merchant and pioneer costs, but I like that there's some focus on preventing city spam.  Unfortunately, this might be hampering the AI more than it hampers me.

The teleport spell cost and loss of organized is a little tough...makes the game drag on a bit, but maybe there's a strategy I just haven't come up with there...horses?  traveling boots?  experience points in movement?

Would like the AI to do a little better job of preparing for my onslaught.

28,109 views 45 replies
Reply #26 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 1

What we are going to do in v1.1 is this:

Your sovereign is the powerful Channeler who generates +1 mana per turn. Each time you capture a shard (which in v1.1 willl have 1 seeded near where you start) it will provide +1 mana also as well as amplify certain spells.  When you imbue a champion, it costs -1 mana to maintain. When you summon a creature, it will cost -1 mana to maintain.  Thus, if you want an army of spell casters, it comes at the cost of having your sovereign being as powerful as he could because he's sharing his power with so many minions.  If you keep it all for yourself, you can only be in one place at a time.  It also makes controlling shards strategically meaningful because they are the source of the Channeler's power.

 
End of Frogboy's quote

Sounds good and it makes sense.
Should make the game a little bit harder too. Currently i can indeed just spam channelers and summons if i wanted to.

 

Reply #27 Top

Nerfing summons makes sense, as does the overall change to mana.  However, can we expect significant other changes to the spells themselves?  The non-summon spells need more power and, most important, variety.  It's important to balance spellcasting, but you also need to make it less boring.  Insert inevitable MOM reference here.

Reply #28 Top

I like this. It makes magic a bit more meaningful than simply imbuing every champion you can find and then nuking the enemy into oblivion. I really like where this game is going.

Reply #29 Top

Have you considered limiting the number of champions to for example <1 + Number of Controlled Shards> That would reduce the "Imbue every champion I can get my hands on" issue.

And perhaps limit the level of spells a character is able to cast to it's own level so a level 1 character can only cast level 1 spells, but a level 7 character can cast all spells up to level 7. This would reduce the problem of human players rushing to research a powerful spell and using it to crush the AI, since they would first need to get their spellcaster to a level where they can cast the spell.

Reply #30 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 1
When you imbue a champion, it costs -1 mana to maintain. ...  Thus, if you want an army of spell casters, it comes at the cost of having your sovereign being as powerful as he could because he's sharing his power with so many minions.
End of Frogboy's quote

Could the imbued champions eventually "outgrow" the imbueing, eliminating the upkeep after gaining some combinations of  Levels / INT / Essence / Time  ?

That would again give an option of weakening your magic early on for the big payoffs later or keep it all for yourself for a short-term rush strategy.

 

Without such a system there is simply no benefit to enduring an early mana shortage. You simply grab more mana regen resources and then imbue champions when you can afford it.
No negatives. No choices.

Reply #31 Top

The mana pool is a good idea, all these concepts sound like the Age of Wonders system: with "shards" instead than "nodes" but that definitely works so I have no problem with it.

Still you have a few overpowered units in the game. The "spy" for example can be devastating: it can inflict 20 points of damage per turn on turn one to every single enemy units. Make an army of them and nobody will be able to survive turn 1 of any attack.

Regarding the AI, I followed the way AOW evolved, they tried different things and in the end I believe the best tactics for sovreigns is to stay inside their capital, not just next to it: but INSIDE. In this game if the sovreign is close to his city the city can be taken making that instantly an enemy territory (by saving and reloading the turn at the moment). The sovreign can then immediately be attacked and killed, game over for them. Also I am perplexed that the sovreign cities disappear once he is gone.

I believe all those armies and cities should become hostile and aggressive against the player. Call them "neutral" cities or "rebels" but they can just keep the flags and insignias of their former affiliation even though their faction is dead. You don't even have to change their look in fact. (Notice that in Age of Wonders Shadow Magic that's the way it works, only in that system the sovreign once killed respawns only inside his tower assuming he has one. With this system in EWOM the enemy ruler would be much harder to kill making this game more challenging than AOWSM since a sovreign who stays in his city becomes virtually impossible to kill until he has cities to respawn to... But maybe not all sovreigns should be pursuing such strategy...) - Also the AI should become extremely aggressive with players who are pursuing an expansionistic strategy (after they have killed several sovreigns).

In most games of this sort when you conquer an enemy city you better keep an army in it or the population will revolt. In some games even creating armies out of the blue (Total War) - That slows down the advance in enemy territory in a realistic way since some troops have to be left behind.

The tech trees should be IMO related each to a specific resource: Imperium=Food  - Sorcery=mana - Domination=Gold, so that each of them would have to be researched (it's already a bit like that but it could be enhanced)

Regarding the combat system take a look at Heroes of M&M, there are great ideas there, and I would suggest to make bows and certain spells more or less powerful according to the DISTANCE from the target. Also I would speed up the animations, but that is obvious.

Mana regeneration is more important than the total essence. The tower of magic should speed up mana regeneration, not give lots of essence which I will never be able to reload anyway.

Do we really need diplomatic capital points? I always use them to buy whatever I want from the enemy before killing them off. If I am pursuing a non diplomatic strategy they are just a big exploit

 

....An please most of all GET RID OF ALL TELEPORTING SPELLS!!!! They spoil the game making the beautiful geography of the map completely useless and making all games be the same with just a super stack jumping around (teleport is a SCI FI device not a fantasy one!!!)

 

Hopefully we'll be able to get a Play By E Mail system some times, since I doubt multyplayer LAN will be very popular in a game that takes so long to complete. After all PBEM is what keeps Age Of Wonders alive after all these years.

Reply #32 Top

I cannot comment on the global mana pool idea - the details surrounding it are too vague at this time.

However, this new idea of soverigns + shards generating magic is not a bad idea. But I think the current numbers for mana regeneration are too weak. +1 for soverign and +1 for each shard? The amount of magic you could caste in 1.07 can far surpass the system in 1.08 because of multiple imbued heros, who each got +1 mana back per turn.

So with this system it would go new game > imbue 1 hero and now we get zero mana a turn? I'd also imagine that the earliest you could maybe get a shard is after the first 50 turns. If the regen was 3-5 mana for sov and each shard this might be a diffrent story (Though i can't be sure)

To sum up my thoughts, the initial form of this new system will end up having to be rebalanced because it will end up reducing the amount of magic that we are currently able to caste. I'm not too pleased at this super nerfing of summons since I would have thought that summoning should be a perfectly viable strategy for a magic focused game.

Oh and if I heard correct about removing the spell books from character creation then I strongly believe this is a mistake. Such a change takes away our ability to tailor our playstyle around a desired magic type (Not that magic is that great yet either). It will ruin much of the replayablity of the game too. I personnally liked the original idea in elemental: owning more then one spellbook gave access to awesome cross school spells.

Should have just raised the spellbook costs instead......Only time will tell how this plays out. I hope I do feel like playing this game because future changes make it into a great game at last.

Reply #33 Top

A couple of thoughts I have after reading this.  Certainly interested in how it shapes up over all, but some concerns:

 

1) Champions need to be more useful when they show up.  All champions show up with minimal or 0 gear, even higher level 'adventurers'.  This makes them virtually useless in a fight.  Right now I can make them useful by imbuing them.  Unless I'm deep into the warfare tech tree I can't equip them with weapons/armor that help them match up favorably with anything beyond basic monsters.  Later when golems, shrills, etc start showing up my champions get shredded.

 

2) Related to above and mentioned earlier in the thread, they need to fix it so that champions with special abilities can use them even if they aren't essence-imbued

 

3) There needs to be more to the mana regen than what is described above.  As written, if I have my sov and beginning shard, I can have 1 imbued champion and 1 summon, and then net mana regen is 0.  So if I can any otherspell, I use some up but can't regen it back.  Obvious solutions; Buildings that boost mana regen, sovereign skill that boosts mana regen that we can level up instead of leveling up essence, mana regen items, etc.

 

Overall, I'm actually relatively happy with the current magic system.  There are some balance tweaks needed to be sure, but I can make up for the low rate of regen right now by imbuing champions.  That way I can win battles with magic by sharing the casting load across multiple units and not deplete any single caster too much.  I want to be able to keep using magic to decisively turn battles in a game like this and I'm worried that the coming changes will prevent that.

Reply #34 Top

If summons and imbues cost the same from a limited mana pool, players will have to do one or the other, not both.

So if summons are stronger than wizards or the opposite, one of these will never be used.

This system requires careful balancing in order to work. Considering the state of game balance right now, I would strongly advise against doing that, as you won't be able to balance it, and one option will prove to be superior to the other, meaning half of the magic (strategic summons or tactical spells) will go out the window.

What is the point of imbuing costing upkeep? Reduce the spellcasting capacity/skill of the channeler who imbues, and summons/enchantments won't compete with imbues any more. Of course this requires a casting capacity, like there was in MoM.

Reply #35 Top

Quoting Hadberz, reply 6
Please make it when the enemy sovereign dies, their empire continues on. One of the Fallen sovereign charged right into my city, which had a army three times as strong. They died and their empire went poof, felt like a hollow victory.
End of Hadberz's quote

 

This

Reply #36 Top

When you imbue a champion, it costs -1 mana to maintain. When you summon a creature, it will cost -1 mana to maintain.  Thus, if you want an army of spell casters, it comes at the cost of having your sovereign being as powerful as he could because he's sharing his power with so many minions. 
End of quote

Errrrm, ... not trying to troll or anything. But why didn't you think of that in the first place?

And why don't you simply do it the MoM way? Lesser summons cost 1 mana upkeep and stronger ones cost 1+X mana per turn? The point made by one of the posters earlier in this thread is absolutely valid, that it is making no real sense if summoning an imp costs the same in terms of upkeep as summoning - I dunno - a Firegiant or such...

Reply #37 Top

Quoting Star, reply 36

When you imbue a champion, it costs -1 mana to maintain. When you summon a creature, it will cost -1 mana to maintain.  Thus, if you want an army of spell casters, it comes at the cost of having your sovereign being as powerful as he could because he's sharing his power with so many minions. 
Errrrm, ... not trying to troll or anything. But why didn't you think of that in the first place?

And why don't you simply do it the MoM way? Lesser summons cost 1 mana upkeep and stronger ones cost 1+X mana per turn? The point made by one of the posters earlier in this thread is absolutely valid, that it is making no real sense if summoning an imp costs the same in terms of upkeep as summoning - I dunno - a Firegiant or such...
End of Star's quote

If things are well balanced a level 3 summoned unit should be roughly 3 times as powerful as a level 1 unit, therefore it should cost three times more to cast and upkeep.. Unless a specific unit was conceived as being advanced not for its intrinsic power but for its cheap upkeep...

Reply #38 Top

Quoting sscheeler, reply 2

Your sovereign is the powerful Channeler who generates +1 mana per turn. Each time you capture a shard (which in v1.1 willl have 1 seeded near where you start) it will provide +1 mana also as well as amplify certain spells.  When you imbue a champion, it costs -1 mana to maintain. When you summon a creature, it will cost -1 mana to maintain.  Thus, if you want an army of spell casters, it comes at the cost of having your sovereign being as powerful as he could because he's sharing his power with so many minions.  If you keep it all for yourself, you can only be in one place at a time.  It also makes controlling shards strategically meaningful because they are the source of the Channeler's power.

 

Will children with magic be a +1 or a -1 in this set-up?


End of sscheeler's quote

I would like the offspring to be a +1 and not be a drain on the soverign like the other heros. This could be what will make then valuable.

Reply #39 Top

Quoting kenata, reply 10
The point is to not have 10 spellcasting champions, which is totally OP. If a champion's magic is piggy backing off a sov's then it makes sense tha the sov would need to use some kind of upkeep to maintain that champion's imbued status. Will it be possible to unimbue a champion? Like so early on, I might imbue a crummy champion to help me maintain peace, but later when I get better champions, I can unimbue the previous champion and then imbue a new one. i would imagine in currently that to do this you would just have to kill your currently imbued champion.
End of kenata's quote

I don't like the idea of spellcasting champions having a mana upkeep. At least allow this to be an option. Now I do like the Summon creature upkeep cost.

Reply #40 Top

Quoting Black-Knight, reply 31
The mana pool is a good idea, all these concepts sound like the Age of Wonders system: with "shards" instead than "nodes" but that definitely works so I have no problem with it.

Still you have a few overpowered units in the game. The "spy" for example can be devastating: it can inflict 20 points of damage per turn on turn one to every single enemy units. Make an army of them and nobody will be able to survive turn 1 of any attack.

Regarding the AI, I followed the way AOW evolved, they tried different things and in the end I believe the best tactics for sovreigns is to stay inside their capital, not just next to it: but INSIDE. In this game if the sovreign is close to his city the city can be taken making that instantly an enemy territory (by saving and reloading the turn at the moment). The sovreign can then immediately be attacked and killed, game over for them. Also I am perplexed that the sovreign cities disappear once he is gone.

I believe all those armies and cities should become hostile and aggressive against the player. Call them "neutral" cities or "rebels" but they can just keep the flags and insignias of their former affiliation even though their faction is dead. You don't even have to change their look in fact. (Notice that in Age of Wonders Shadow Magic that's the way it works, only in that system the sovreign once killed respawns only inside his tower assuming he has one. With this system in EWOM the enemy ruler would be much harder to kill making this game more challenging than AOWSM since a sovreign who stays in his city becomes virtually impossible to kill until he has cities to respawn to... But maybe not all sovreigns should be pursuing such strategy...) - Also the AI should become extremely aggressive with players who are pursuing an expansionistic strategy (after they have killed several sovreigns).

In most games of this sort when you conquer an enemy city you better keep an army in it or the population will revolt. In some games even creating armies out of the blue (Total War) - That slows down the advance in enemy territory in a realistic way since some troops have to be left behind.

The tech trees should be IMO related each to a specific resource: Imperium=Food  - Sorcery=mana - Domination=Gold, so that each of them would have to be researched (it's already a bit like that but it could be enhanced)

Regarding the combat system take a look at Heroes of M&M, there are great ideas there, and I would suggest to make bows and certain spells more or less powerful according to the DISTANCE from the target. Also I would speed up the animations, but that is obvious.

Mana regeneration is more important than the total essence. The tower of magic should speed up mana regeneration, not give lots of essence which I will never be able to reload anyway.

Do we really need diplomatic capital points? I always use them to buy whatever I want from the enemy before killing them off. If I am pursuing a non diplomatic strategy they are just a big exploit

 

....An please most of all GET RID OF ALL TELEPORTING SPELLS!!!! They spoil the game making the beautiful geography of the map completely useless and making all games be the same with just a super stack jumping around (teleport is a SCI FI device not a fantasy one!!!)

 

Hopefully we'll be able to get a Play By E Mail system some times, since I doubt multyplayer LAN will be very popular in a game that takes so long to complete. After all PBEM is what keeps Age Of Wonders alive after all these years.
End of Black-Knight's quote

Well Teleport is both a Fantasy and Sci-fi device but it was a Fantasy device first.

Also How does anyone play a game by PBEM I just don't get it. I have tried this with AOW:SM and it was just not worth playing in PBEM. So I play AOW:SM the normal way.

Now as to your other comments I do agree that the more like AOW the game gets the better and with some of these changes it does appear that it will be more like AOW. However I don't like Spellcasting heros haveing a magic upkeep.

I do agree with you on the cities and units of a defeated Factions staying in the game and becoming hostil Independants. And maybe as time goes on they could become another AI faction

Reply #41 Top

A General Purpose CPU can solve an O(N^3) problem much more effortlessly (and especially through brute force methods) than any human being can.

I cannot state the same for an NP-Hard.

 

I agree with Storm's Statement as it being only half the AI problem as well.

 

Adding Patches that make nonsence out of the tech trees is not helping... (Proof: Look at Kingdom Maces and then Warhammers... o.O)

 

 It could be successfully argued that much that society claims as Science Fiction is a a subset of fantasy so I agree that Teleport should stay and I like the larger Mana cost to reduce how often it is relied upon. 

Reply #42 Top

I would only agree with teleport being removed if the game made it easier to move around the game world. At current, things like traveler boots and horse are fairly meaningless for a sov/champion since their effects are negated by having even a single slower unit. A sov with a 5 move starts the escort nobleman quest and instantly he is only 1 move? While in someways this makes sense, as the nobleman would slow down the sov, even one horse would increase the speed of both individuals, since it could be used to lighten the load of both individuals.


In my last game I used teleport as the best way for my sov to get around my civ after it got to about 13 cities. Even with roads it takes my sov many turns to trek the entire length of the civ to help with any sort of problems. Even then, what if I am out questing far from my civ? Recently I played a game where the wild goose chase took me only about 10 square from my capital but it was on the other side of a mountain range which span like 100 tiles. In this case, my sov would be trapped on the other side of the world because I dared to actually send him out to have an adventure.

Reply #43 Top

Quoting Storm, reply 38
Honestly, this is only half of the issue with the game's AI.  In the games that I finished to completion, I never even used the Imbue / summoning trick.  I simply researched bows and had enough troops in my army that I could wipe the enemy out before they could cross the field of battle.

 
End of Storm's quote

same here! right now the AI lacks the basics, like not sending only melee units against a wall of arrows about 10 times in a row...

 

about moving, why the heck a horse/wolf only gives 1 more move point... the same as a pair of boots or a special cloak?

Reply #44 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 1
The bulk of the AI work is going to be in v1.1.  It's almost impossible to make it produce a cohesive strategy given how easy it is for the human player to summon tons of units.  It's an O(N^3) issue.  

Basically, it boils down to the need for a game AI to be able to have N strategies. In a typical game, say GalCiv II or Civ IV, you'd have the AI have several different general strategies (rush, boom, turtle, etc.).  But in Elemental, there are a number of unique challenges.

For instance, you have sovereigns who are very powerful. This isn't a new concept, Total Annihilation had commanders. However, when the enemy commander died, they'd destroy everything around it. Thus, you wouldn't tend to "Com rush".

Another challenge has been the issue of summoned creatures. With the way imbuing works, you can easily crank out a lot of summoned creatures without any real economic impact.

You take these two issues and it makes it basically impossible to write a challenging AI.  And yet, asking the player not to make use of the most obviously effective strategy would be insane and "gimping" the game is not an option.

What we are going to do in v1.1 is this:

Your sovereign is the powerful Channeler who generates +1 mana per turn. Each time you capture a shard (which in v1.1 willl have 1 seeded near where you start) it will provide +1 mana also as well as amplify certain spells.  When you imbue a champion, it costs -1 mana to maintain. When you summon a creature, it will cost -1 mana to maintain.  Thus, if you want an army of spell casters, it comes at the cost of having your sovereign being as powerful as he could because he's sharing his power with so many minions.  If you keep it all for yourself, you can only be in one place at a time.  It also makes controlling shards strategically meaningful because they are the source of the Channeler's power.

 
End of Frogboy's quote

That does sound pretty awesome. For me this would leave to me only making 2 or 3 casters to go along with my Sov, and each of them would lead an army. If time allowed I'd use my children for this task since they'll come with their own mana (right?). Just make sure to have the casters OTHER STATS matter, like Int and Wis, so each and every caster doesn't just feel like a weaker copy of your Sov. DON'T forget that, or it'll seem dumbed down. ;)