Hmm, that's it? Really?

Been playing around with the Beta, and I have to admit that I'm a bit disappointed.

 

Elemental has a fantastic concept, but it just seems to fall way behind when compared to other games in the Genre.

 

1) The tech-trees

Nice concept, but there's only what? 20 Warfare, 15 Civic, 8 Adventure and Magic and 5 Diplomatic techs, bringing this in at less than 70 techs across the whole gamut? Isn't that a bit few? I was hoping for massive tech-trees a la Civilization or the school of spells with Dominions. I want to be forced to specialize, instead I get the feeling that everyone will research the same ten techs in the initial rounds.

 

2) Magic spells

Where exactly is the difference between fire, air, ice, earth and water magic? Ice looks like fire in blue. I'm a bit underwhelmed with the whole magic system - it seems rushed and unfinished and the spells are not very interesting. I think Age of Wonders did a better job in giving the spell-classes more individuality.

 

3) Tactical Combat

Ugh. Maybe I'm missing something, but there's three things very, very wrong with the combat system. First, it favours the attacker in a ridiculous, gamebreaking way by letting him move first, which means a spellcaster wipes out half of the defending army. Or your archers do, in case spellcasting in combat gets (hopefully) fixed. Why can't individual units attack by their combat speed/initiative, a la HOMM? Secondly, spellcasting in tactical combat is just wrong. A first level caster with a level 2 attack spell can cast three times a round. Even at Int 10, this averages to 15 damage (up to 30) per round, unavoidable, and before the defender gets to act. This means you can instakill a level 5 sovereign who did nothing but spec for Constitution and survivability, without giving him the chance to retaliate. I think a much, much better solution would be to only allow one casting action per round. And finally - kiting! It can't be that I can just stand around and happily one-shot enemies that come close without ever being in any danger. Units deal way too much damage and have way too little hitpoints - changing damage and hitpoints might make combat more interesting.

 

4) Customization of Sovereign and Units

The Sovereign customization is really nice, though I wish that race would do something. Like giving allegiance bonus or dislikes, or other benefits/disadvantages. Again, I'm underwhelmed with the units though. I can only grant them more hitpoints by putting a magical backpack on them? Really? Let alone that a damage-soaking unit is not necessary unless fighting against enemy spellcasters (who'd never target them anyway). I would love if I could slap special abilities on units and have some proper interesting ones like in MoM or AoW.

 

 

I'm not even going into quests, goodie huts etc which absolutely lack in randomization.

 

So, overall - I pre-ordered Elemental,  but what I'm seeing in the Beta leaves me disappointed as in a "Yeah, this is nice, yeah, I'll play two or three games, oh, Civ V is coming out and has real depth"-way - which, as the self-proclaimed spiritual child of Masters of Magic is a real real shame, because I should be all over this game drooling from here to the next Water Node.

 

Seriously though, just make tactical combat more interesting/less broken and I'll be a lot happier. I can't see that happen until the 24th though, or whenever you guys print your gold discs.

 

 

By the way, please feel free to show me the error of my ways and point out what exactly I'm missing.

25,495 views 28 replies
Reply #1 Top

its still a beta.

Reply #2 Top

I'm pretty disappointed with how generic / vague the magic system feels at the moment. I'd like a lot more structure in terms of magic types, spell books, etc.

Equipment / equipment windows are lacking too IMO :(

Reply #3 Top

yeah magic system still bothers me, improvement are too  small and the goal is very far

 

also i dont get why they keep this bad idea of multicast

 

its so wierd to see a mage ca st 67 spells in the same turn, now its also more wierd cause with armor often spells do 0 damage

 

magic miss a lot of fun and strenght

a caster does not appear to be a powerful being but just a shit spammer who throws n fireballs most of which are also totally resisted by a snake

 

magic should be UNIQUE and feared

Reply #4 Top

Quoting KillzEmAllGod, reply 1
its still a beta.
End of KillzEmAllGod's quote

 

It's about to go gold. 

 

I don't understand the rush to get this out before civ 5. The game is clearly not even close to ready. 

Reply #5 Top

Quoting sisonpyh, reply 4

I don't understand the rush to get this out before civ 5. The game is clearly not even close to ready. 
End of sisonpyh's quote

 

1. The internal version at Stardock is a lot more developed than our Beta version according to a frog

2. There are two available timeslots at the stores that Stardock has ordered. August 2010 or Feb 2011. Thats why there is a rush. If they miss August, we have to wait until feb. A frog has told us this several times now :)

 

I do agree that the time frame left seems small, but I keep faith until proven wrong :)

Reply #6 Top

Quoting joasoze, reply 5
[...]

2. There are two available timeslots at the stores that Stardock has ordered. August 2010 or Feb 2011. Thats why there is a rush. If they miss August, we have to wait until feb. A frog has told us this several times now

[...]

End of joasoze's quote
This was true, but it's not true anymore. They're hitting the August 2010 release now. There's no other choice anymore. Wheels are rolling, deals have been made, etc.

Reply #7 Top

And again as said several times already :-) If you are not happy with the August release - wait till next year. Improvements/Mods will come and maybe than its the right game for you. But I don't want that because a view are unhappy that others have to wait.

The decision is up to Stardock. If they are happy with what they have achieved and think it's ok to release, they will release the game :-) In the end, it's their Business decision

Reply #8 Top

Quoting Wylaryzel, reply 7
And again as said several times already If you are not happy with the August release - wait till next year. Improvements/Mods will come and maybe than its the right game for you. But I don't want that because a view are unhappy that others have to wait.

The decision is up to Stardock. If they are happy with what they have achieved and think it's ok to release, they will release the game In the end, it's their Business decision
End of Wylaryzel's quote

 

Yep, and I have no clue why people support this... I mean, beta as is right now, is still so bad. And releasing unfinished product is not right. There is still time between now and release, and they might be further, but still. I do not think that game will end up finished. And I am not talking about what is not in the game, only about stuff which is in, how it works, how it looks etc...

Reply #9 Top

Been playing around with the Beta, and I have to admit that I'm a bit disappointed.

 

Elemental has a fantastic concept, but it just seems to fall way behind when compared to other games in the Genre.

 

1) The tech-trees

Nice concept, but there's only what? 20 Warfare, 15 Civic, 8 Adventure and Magic and 5 Diplomatic techs, bringing this in at less than 70 techs across the whole gamut? Isn't that a bit few? I was hoping for massive tech-trees a la Civilization or the school of spells with Dominions. I want to be forced to specialize, instead I get the feeling that everyone will research the same ten techs in the initial rounds.

 

2) Magic spells

Where exactly is the difference between fire, air, ice, earth and water magic? Ice looks like fire in blue. I'm a bit underwhelmed with the whole magic system - it seems rushed and unfinished and the spells are not very interesting. I think Age of Wonders did a better job in giving the spell-classes more individuality.

 

3) Tactical Combat

Ugh. Maybe I'm missing something, but there's three things very, very wrong with the combat system. First, it favours the attacker in a ridiculous, gamebreaking way by letting him move first, which means a spellcaster wipes out half of the defending army. Or your archers do, in case spellcasting in combat gets (hopefully) fixed. Why can't individual units attack by their combat speed/initiative, a la HOMM? Secondly, spellcasting in tactical combat is just wrong. A first level caster with a level 2 attack spell can cast three times a round. Even at Int 10, this averages to 15 damage (up to 30) per round, unavoidable, and before the defender gets to act. This means you can instakill a level 5 sovereign who did nothing but spec for Constitution and survivability, without giving him the chance to retaliate. I think a much, much better solution would be to only allow one casting action per round. And finally - kiting! It can't be that I can just stand around and happily one-shot enemies that come close without ever being in any danger. Units deal way too much damage and have way too little hitpoints - changing damage and hitpoints might make combat more interesting.

 

4) Customization of Sovereign and Units

The Sovereign customization is really nice, though I wish that race would do something. Like giving allegiance bonus or dislikes, or other benefits/disadvantages. Again, I'm underwhelmed with the units though. I can only grant them more hitpoints by putting a magical backpack on them? Really? Let alone that a damage-soaking unit is not necessary unless fighting against enemy spellcasters (who'd never target them anyway). I would love if I could slap special abilities on units and have some proper interesting ones like in MoM or AoW.

 

 

I'm not even going into quests, goodie huts etc which absolutely lack in randomization.

 

So, overall - I pre-ordered Elemental,  but what I'm seeing in the Beta leaves me disappointed as in a "Yeah, this is nice, yeah, I'll play two or three games, oh, Civ V is coming out and has real depth"-way - which, as the self-proclaimed spiritual child of Masters of Magic is a real real shame, because I should be all over this game drooling from here to the next Water Node.

 

Seriously though, just make tactical combat more interesting/less broken and I'll be a lot happier. I can't see that happen until the 24th though, or whenever you guys print your gold discs.

 

 

By the way, please feel free to show me the error of my ways and point out what exactly I'm missing.
End of quote
Quoting TheProgress, reply 2
I'm pretty disappointed with how generic / vague the magic system feels at the moment. I'd like a lot more structure in terms of magic types, spell books, etc.
End of TheProgress's quote

Well yeah I tend to agree...the magic system is the weakest part of the game right now. There should be much more spells in the game, and the magic system should be much more diverse...-> Good example: Dominions 3.

+ The tactical combat system is far from being perfect, but I am not worried. It will be decent later on, because the devs are awesome @ polishing/tweaking the game mechanics. :)

Reply #10 Top

Agreed.. as the game is now, it looks really weak. I love the visuals, but mechanics are boring. There are few techs that feel useful, most are meh, researching the least boring stuff. And magic is just awful.. I get to choose the color of my magic missile?

Units need special abilities too, atm only thing that seems to matter is attack (and bows, which seem to have infinite range too). Unit design doesn't really have many options.. most of the time I just pick boar spear and any armor I might have. Though bear is better anyway.

Stats on the whole feel very limited. Unless I'm missing something, Strength just gives moar damage (to bows too?). Dex gives defense. Int boosts some spells. Wisdom does nothing. Charisma may or may not help get champions (deciding factor is rng really, amount of gold bags you find). Constitution gives.. health. Might just as well have Attack Strenght, Defense, Health and Movement Speed.

And the quests.. Fetch Me a Carrot/Take Out My Dog doesn't feel very interesting. But they're still better than wandering around abandoned countryside and picking up bags of gold/stuff. Champions are really just resource collectors, as picking bags seems to be the best way to gain any reasonable amount of gold/materials.

 

I wouldn't be worried otherwise, but it's pretty late beta and some of the problems seem pretty big. Especially the magic one.. this being War of Magic. Mechanics doesn't lack polishing, it lacks mechanics :|

Haven't really lookede at the modding tools.. hopefully they're really good :)

Reply #11 Top

I agree with what you are saying as the game currently stands but balancing the magic system shouldn't be a major issue at all. (Just simple XML files by the looks). Also, with each beta certain aspects are nerfed and others buffed so we focus in the specific areas the devs want us focussed on. Eg, in this current beta all the heroes seem to have all spell books activated.

Agree that the tactical battle engine is currently a problem as this would be part of the core I think.

But in reality I doubt we are going to see such a mod-friendly game for a long long time. If there isn't a Balance Mod of some sort within the first week of release then I'd be extremely surprised. And by all accounts the ability to mod this game is going to lead to some awesome iterations down the track. The game is worth getting just based on this aspect alone!

Reply #12 Top

Quoting Tormy-, reply 9
There should be much more spells in the game,
End of Tormy-'s quote

 

i dont agree

 

there are even too many spells in game

the point is they should be VERY different from each other

 

asking more spells we will just end with fireball and firebolt and fire missile and fire arrow and fire  bomb and fire breath and so on

 

we need even this amount of spells but RELEVANT

 

i get to decide if i throw a fireball or a lightining FOR a REASON, that matters

 

i get to build my sovereign on ice instead of  fire for a reason, and the gameplay changes

there is nothing not even remotely close in this (last ?  ) beta build

 

im sure stardock is working and they have projects and stuff but *WHAT WE CAN SEE* right now is nothing good, yes the game is developing, beta after beta THERE IS and improvement, we all see it

 

 but we also see it will take ages with this rythm to get into a good game, maybe  we should be allowed to see something more, dunno

Reply #13 Top

Yes, it is a worry.  Based on the current Beta 4 (0.98) the game is functional, without being fantastic, IMHO.  And the reviews that the game gets are still very important, even if not all important.  Even though I don't like to say it, after having enjoyed being part of the community since Beta 3, I just don't see the game getting more than average reviews, especially considering that 0.98 (or a) is awfully close to 1.0.   I want this game to succeed, but IMHO the gameplay as of Beta 4 is functional rather than exciting and super inspiring, even though the Beta process itself and the Stardockians' work ethic has been the latter.  As I said, if it was solely based on hard work and tremendous good will, the game would get top reviews.  However...

I hope I'm wrong about the reviews and the final game though...

Best regards,
Steven.

Reply #14 Top

lets hope that the internal version has something more to offer

for me the game is not rdy yet :(

 

 

but i understand stardock if they delay the release i cant even think how much it gonna cost them 100-300k $

 

but when i think in 4 months the game could be 10x better :D and alot more features added

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reply #15 Top

Quoting ddd888, reply 12



Quoting Tormy-,
reply 9
There should be much more spells in the game,


 

i dont agree

 

there are even too many spells in game

the point is they should be VERY different from each other

End of ddd888's quote

Hehe, well they should be very different/diverse indeed [like I've said :P], but even the ancient MoM had much more spells....I'd say ~25 spells / magic school should be the minimum in this game. We are talking about Elemental: War of Magic afterall. :)

Reply #16 Top

yeah but since im still not even remotely satisfied from the actual magic system i really can t ask more spells if the firsts already "fail"

 

Reply #17 Top

VexingVision is right on the mark. Out of all the areas considered here the tactical battles are probably the worst part for me. Go play HOMM3 for a few days and you'll really see how much Elemental is missing in this department. Many of the units in HOMM3 have unique special abilities. On their own these are small but together they combine to make combat much more interesting.

HOMM3 also has 8 races(excluding the expansion) with a diverse array of units. Each unit not only looks very unique but also plays differently.  In Elemental each faction plays almost identically because units are just an attack and defense value. Once you find the combination of attack and defense that you like there is no reason to build differently the next game, regardless of the chosen faction. This leads to the same boring units each game. On the other hand, HOMM3's factions has unique advantages and disadvantages, which makes each one play differently. For instance, the heroes of the Necropolis faction can raise those fallen in battle as skeletons to fight in your army. These kind of abilities also allow heroes to be specialized for a specific purpose.

I know a lot of people will say that this is just the beta but the release date is getting awfully close. Maybe Stardock's build is lightyears ahead of ours but currently we only have beta 4 to make our judgments on. As of beta 4 I have no reason to switch from HOMM3 or MOM to this game. I've already preordered myself but there is no way I can recommend it to my friends even if it were crash and bug free.

 

 

Reply #18 Top

Well, i have been reading threads on this forum for a while and for every game mechanics the devs asked advice about, there has been at least one personn who gave an idea or a game mechanic i would have loved to see in the game.

That's why i got so hyped about this game. But when i read this kind of thread, i have the feeling that elemental is much more like Gal Civ 2 with a new engine and its bag of good and bad ideas than the ultimate 4X i have been waiting for.

I think i am going to wait a year to see how the game is doing and depending of the community feedback, i may buy it once it would go under 30 euros on impulse.

Reply #19 Top

These concerns are the exact reason I started a thread about how they were rushing this game too much.
The thread was closed for being "Obnoxious".

Yes, the game might be an awesomecake and three quarters in another few months, but games that are released in an unfinished state usually get righteous slaughter in the games press. As a pre-order'ee I'll happily wait a few months till things get fixed. I'm just worried that initial bad press will scare customers away that otherwise would have found this game a blast after the rough edges have been filed down.

Anyway, they probably can't afford to delay it. So any discussion about this is useless.

Feel free to smite me  with heavenly wrath if I'm wrong.

Reply #20 Top

I share your concerns, but. . .

since the game is now irreversibly committed to the release date, the most productive use of our time, typing, thought and effort at this point is to help make the game better through suggestions, constructive feedback and bughunting.

Reply #21 Top

i dont know why stardock does not go the blizzard way

 

release a full game with all features there  and later when you make the patches dont add new stuff just balance the old things

 

Reply #22 Top

since the game is now irreversibly committed to the release date, the most productive use of our time, typing, thought and effort at this point is to help make the game better through suggestions, constructive feedback and bughunting.
End of quote

Very much this :P

Thankfully, most of these concerns that, while valid, are mostly fixed by XML tweaking. Some things aren't. I realize people want crazy diverse races for example, but Elemental was never really meant to be a game with lots of weird magical creatures and armies of geenies and unicorns. Like LoTR, it's mostly about "humanoids" with magical creatures being part of the untamed world. Things like unit abilities (or, at least, monster abilities) are already planned for release, we just haven't seen them.

Tactical battles most definitely should've came in an earlier beta, it still needs a bit of work to make "very fun" - though at the moment most of the un-funness comes from there being virtually no balance (one hit kills all around, spells that do way too much damage, armor being way more costly than weapons, etc). The mechanics could still use some work, but it looks like they're planning on that for one of the first patches.

Tech trees are also unfinished and going to get beefed up (as well as more unique trees by faction added).

Reply #23 Top

It's about to go gold.



I don't understand the rush to get this out before civ 5. The game is clearly not even close to ready.
End of quote

if you have been here from beta one then all is fine, the Mod tools are EPIC!, there's no rush to get the out quickly they are getting everything done all time.

this thread just slows down the people at stardock.

Reply #24 Top

Quoting Spitz, reply 20
I share your concerns, but. . .


since the game is now irreversibly committed to the release date, the most productive use of our time, typing, thought and effort at this point is to help make the game better through suggestions, constructive feedback and bughunting.
End of Spitz's quote

 

its what i am doing and most of other users

taking 2 min to express our concern isnt really affecting the game

Reply #25 Top

I'm sorry you joined a beta program expecting to play some sort of demo version of the released game.

As people who have been in the beta can attest to, the game can change pretty radically from week to week.

It would be far more constructive to give your suggestions and feedback in a way that allows us to evaluate it and see which parts make sense to be implemented.

Nearly every complaint in this thread is something on our list to address prior to release.