Rethinking Research Points

Hear hear.  I would also like to reiterate my idea that all of those research points should count towards whichever single path you've set at any given time, in order to avoid having to keep track of five different research categories simultaniously.  However only the warfare RP producing structures will produce RP at full capacity when researching towards warfare while all others would produce at half (or less) capacity, adventuring structures would produce fully when researching adventuring paths but all others would be reduced, ect and so forth.

 "One could say more micromanagement though I would disagree there. and as for the K.I.S.S. aurgument, dammit this is a PC title and a TBS Wargame. We want some more complicated mechanics to gives us a deeper experience."

That surely sums up my feelings.

Although I sort of like the idea. It could be abused by those frugal, mindful, micro loving types, to allow for max RP availability for any given Tech, on any given number of Turn(s), while inside any single Tech Tree.

Example: (#'s used are imagined at this time)

I have 2 of each Tech building in Town A. I am currently going to run War (Tech Level 2). I know that it will take 10 turns to complete. So, before that cycle begins. I tear down 1 of each tech building save my War Tech buildings in Town A and rebuild as many War Tech based buildings as allowed.

The new War Tech buildings will all be completed construction with in 8-9 total turns. I now get full RP points for all those buildings while running War (Tech Level 3) and beyond.

I then change tracts to running Magic (Tech level2). I tear down those War buildings and put up the max. Magic ones allowed. The run 2 levels of max. RP for Magic. Rinse and repeat.

This could be done early to mid game where funds can be recovered from destruction and the re-contruction costs are out weighed by the Research benefits garnered by such a Ponzi scheme.

Agreed with john_hughes. It'd be a nightmare of building and rebuilding to get optimal researching done.

All I really want is a more interactive tech tree. Right now it seems like were just given a list and we pick one every once in a while. After the initial research into a category, it seems like endless opportunities open up and there's no real flow to the whole thing.

Not necessarily. Yes, you could do that, but that would mean you are constantly losing out on those tiles in your city. To do this constantly would require that you keep a certain number of city tiles almost constantly under construction. So there is opportunity cost there. The second is that you are spending gold and resources to constantly build and rebuild. So yeah you'd research faster, but at a much higher cost. Compare that to someone who builds his buildings and then leaves them there. He only paid for his research structures once; the guy who is constantly building and rebuilding them every time he switches research tracks is paying for those structures over and over again, plus the lost real estate. That might just balance it out, maybe even outright discourage that min/maxing behavior.

Not sure which method I prefer - simultaneous research in all tracks with their own research bars, or the current system but with different buildings providing more RP to specific research lines. Both have their merits.

@John-Hughes

Perhaps you could make it so that new research buildings won't count towards research until after the breakthrough your currently working towards? Regardless, the point is to avoid a situation where any one strategy becomes the be all end all, and although the strategy you pointed out is possible you'd be making some significant resource and research sacrifices trying to be jack of all trades rather then focusing on a specific path. In any case in the later stages the strategy wouldn't even be possible economically... If someone wants to attempt this in the early game, its their resources and time they'd be wasting... Not mine.

Lets say an early research building takes 5 turns to build... To research something in that field as you are now takes 15 turns. When you demolish your current buildings to build buildings for that specific research branch you lose the half-input they were generating, meaning now it would take you 25 turns to research... 5 turns pass you build your first specialized building. 20 turns was reduced to 12 turns. You still have to wait 5 more turns for the next building, once its built 7 turns will be reduced to 2 turns... It still would take you 12 turns working in the same city as opposed to 15. This doesn't include gold costs or materials spent.

If you have several towns the time to build would be alleviated... Possibly turning 15 turns into 6 or so... Personally If I wanted to be a jack of all trades I'd probably just build several different buildings since most will have natural factors in addition to their RP output. A Barracks may produce Military RP but it also strengthens your troops, or lets you make squads etc. A wizard tower may give Magic RP, but it also grants spell research. An Inn may give Adventuring RP but it also grants prestige to the city its in and could have an effect in drawing adventurers. Its not like they are buildings dedicated strictly to research, they just grant research in their field in addition to whatever use they may have. You'd actually be better off building balanced cities if you want to be a Jack of all, rather then attempting your method.

However, if you don't want to be a jack of all, which is the point to begin with. Then you can just focus on military buildings and it wont hamper your research output for warfare... Or you can be a civilization dedicated to magic and you wouldn't have to worry about civics based research upgrades because your wizard towers and arcane labs are what do the Magic research.

Hell you could still have civics based research buildings like Schools... I'd just make it so that they grant a smaller amount of RP to each field rather then trump a specialized building in its field.

What should produce more magic RP? A school or a wizards tower? I don't think that's too hard to figure out.

@pigeonpigeon and Saije

You both have valid counters arguments.

All I am saying is, "if it possible, it will be abused". That is the way of some gamers everywhere you play. Especially when they get a chance to face off versus other human opponents ala MP.

I am not making this argument for any other reason than to try and avoid such pitfalls. As sad as even having that need truly is.

Also another drawback to the constant rebuilding is that in my example the building themselves do more than just produce RP's, they also provide a basic function.  So if you were to decide you wanted to research magic and focus on that. You rip out all but farms, houses, and magic producing buildings. This would also mean you have no Material Production, Gold Production, Prestige, Army Production, yadda yadda. It might be a viable specilization, I think in practice though as pigeon said the opportunity cost would become to high for that kind of behavior. Not saying if you took one city and defined it as tha it might not be possible. Hell it even becomes a viable strategy. But I think it would be far from overpowering. If you tried that with all your cities I think you would find yourself running out of resources so fast it would become a losing strategy.

That being said obviously each tech tree would also have an associated building that was pure RP's without another function. and that bonus would have to be bigger than the basic bonuses from building that come with other functions. You could possible use those to min/max and rebuild. But I see that as less of an issue because you would still want your basic infrastructure there. So the number of tiles you had available for that kind of stuff would remain relatively low.

But yeah it might be possible lol. Your last post slipped in while typing this one. And you are right it would have to be balanced.

Similar Concept, Different Execution:

Each Tech Category has Research Buildings

Research Buildings Generate General and Typed RPs ... and use the same Building slot Pool

Example:

Imagine two buildings, which sit at the same tier in the War & Civics field: the war academy and the civil service academy:

War Academy

+5 Research

+5 War Research

+1 Magic Research

+100% Troop Training Rate

Civil Service Academy

+5 Research

+4 Civics Research

+2 Diplomacy Research

-40% City Maintenance

Assume that a city can support 2 of any type of structure.  Instead of being able to build two War Academies and two Civil Service Academies, a city can only support two academies.  Eg. 1 War + 1 CS, 2 CS, or 2 War.  We balance these numbers so that in the general case, the most effective way to research is to build these academies, but which you build is less important -- unless you're on a wicked beeline.  The Natural Effect would be for you to either research your focus at double speed, or research your focus at normal speed while you research something else, also at normal speed!

As to tearing things out and replacing them on a frequent basis micro, well, playtest playtest playtest...

Wow Sareln, Nice thought into that. Great expansion on the original idea. My only disagreement would be the base research points. The system I proposed tends to mean that all RP's need to be specialized. But beyond that that is definitely a logiccal step in the right direction.

Yeah, I'm not actually that keen on completely specialized research.  Here's the main issue for me: How does the player know he needs to focus? Or Specialize?  Why should he want to? How do we build a system where a Jack-of-All is as effective as Master-of-One?  I think we can achieve this by focusing on leaving the player as much flexibility as possible to switch tracks if he changes his mind - and having only typed RPs available makes that harder, in my opinion.  That's why nearly half of the research outputs of those buildings is untyped, so that the player feels he's still directing research after he has established his infrastructure.

Also, since with general RPs available we have made it easier to dabble in non-specialized trees, we give players the opportunity to explore parts of the tree that they are not focusing on - an opportunity for discovery.  It also makes it easier to include cross-tree synergies, which makes the whole thing feel tighter and more cohesive.

I respectfully disagree but can offer an alternative to satisfy both arguments.

To avoid over complication, why not give a basic research bonus for specific tech categories instead?  This way you retain all the benefits of the original system and avoid any research railroading plus retraining the average tbs player.

For example if I am researching the espionage tech then I can receive x points from research buildings but get an additional point for each tavern built.  The bonus would only apply to that technology, so the player must decide if building the infrastructure is worth it.

Edit: I'd like to add the devs have stated that the GalCiv research path is preferably avoided.

What are you disagreeing on? Its not quite clear to me.

Could you elaborate the chracteristics of the GalCiv research path the devs don't wish to repeat for my poor memory? (or better yet, link it?) It has been some years since I've played GalCiv or GalCiv2.  In your example, would Taverns contribute to all espionage-class technologies? Or only the technology named espionage?

I really like your suggestion, and I think I do agree with this concern. I think that they should either go with something like your suggestion, or retain the general research structures like schools, but also make specialized structures provide research for the relevant research line.

But then, would specialized RPs build up even if you aren't researching that line? If I have 10 General RPs, 3 warefare RPs, 4 Magic RPs, and 1 Adventuring RP, what happens if I'm researching warfare? Do I produce 13 RPs in warfare, 4 in magic, and 1 in adventuring? Or do I just produce 13 in warfare? Both would allow specialization, but I'm not sure which I prefer. The second scenario is a little cleaner, but it'd also be kinda cool to be able to produce , say, 10 general RPs and 10 warfare RPs. That way, you'd be chugging along at a good pace in your chosen specialization (warfare in this example), with 10 general RPs to direct at the other lines, or even doubling up on warfare.

The original thought was ALL Tech related buildings produce RP's at some level. Then when you dig into a specific Tree, any tech related building provides 2X, while the others would drop off to either .5X or .25X output unitl their Tech was hit.

If we allow every building type to offer some RP's, then as Cities spawn, how do we control the growth potential of the very first, most required, tech tree, CiV.

Currently, I place 2 Civ based Buildings immediately, then quickly expand on that tree as a matter of necessity. Food and Materials.

Thus we are back to the proposed idea that perhaps we should ALL get the first 2-3 Techs, from the Civ Tree, for FREE and base it on Pop growth, making Prestige based buildings the main priority, then allow Specialization to take over.

That way, you can forgo Pop growth early for a Tech advantage, but as we see now, you have to go back and build Housing to keep a City growing.

My intent, at the time of writing, was to have points accumulate regardless of what you were researching.  In this case, the first scenario you describe best captures the idea I was trying to communicate.

That might actually be something to re-examine.  What does it really mean when we say: "Starting from scratch?".  Does it mean that everything about civilized life needs to be rediscovered? Or have the people retained some form of knowledge over the cataclysm - like, say, farming.

You say we're coming back to the discussion, so in summary what ground has already been covered?

War Academy increases research on War techs by 30% etc. I like this idea. Easy to understand, doesn't require a separate point system, etc.

IMO the entire city/tech system is currently deeply broken and will eventually be reworked, so a lot of our assumptions about how it "has" to work may prove to be false.

RE: realism in tech

If it were realistic, we wouldn't have tech trees. In order to access higher levels of technology, the game would be about building infrastructure to support technology like steel making. Want steel? First you need to find out how to do it, that's the easy part. Now you need all of the things that go into making a bloomery. You need a mason and he needs his tools which he gets from a forge and you need wood for charcoal to burn and clay and a potter and a and he needs a wheel and a kiln which we'll get from the mason or the carpenter, who also needs his tools, and each of them have to learn their craft from someone, and once you've sunk a whole ton of effort into developing an ecosystem where steelmaking can occur, then you get it. Destroyed the kiln to make way for more housing? You lost your abillity to make new bloomeries or do upkeep on the old ones.

A realistic "tech tree" would be building dozens of infrastructure projects, and if your city was razed, you could lose it all. More than one civilization has been reduced to the stone age by that.

I'm fine with skipping out any element of realism that doesn't mesh with "is this game fun?"

I think we can skip much of that realism and still have a small something to build an intuitive sense that you just can't rip out the old specialization buildings every time you switch tech paths:  building pre-reqs.

Example:

Put the War Academy at the end of a building line: Training Yard, Arena, Barracks, Military Academy.  Each building replaces the one in series with it.  Eg. you can build a training yard in any slot, you can only build arenas on top of training yards, barracks on arenas, and the academy only on top of barracks.

There is an issue with War Academies only giving a research modifier - and that's what we do with multiple buildings.  Will their research mod only apply to RPs coming out of that city? Are they empire-wide? If they're empire wide, how do we balance large and small empires?  I guess the big thing, is that if I'm putting the text: "Increases Civilization Research by 30% Empire Wide" on a building, I want it to have close to that effect as possible. eg. if a person is generating 100 RPs/Turn, and they build a Civil Service Academy somewhere, they should see 130 RPs/Turn when researching civilization.

I was disagreeing with your system because of the flaws like opportunities for abuse and it could alienate traditional 4X tbs fans.  Another problem is kingdom versus empire not using a top down pyramid method for administration of research.  Your system has average peasants discovering new technologies through daily life influenced by the environment.  In other words, the model MAY not completely fit into Elemental lorewise.

Let's say the buildings that provide points for very specific individual techs are wonders.  Wonders are a major investment that cannot be bulldozed and replaced on a whim.  Therefore they cannot be easily exploitable.  A potential byproduct: it creates a new third economy type.  Cottage economies, specialist economies and now an infrastructure economy that constructs wonders primarily to beeline a limited number of specific techs at a considerable cost of city space and production that could be channeled into other uses.  Those techs can shoot to anywhere on the tree, diversifying gameplay.

Another option is synergy with other buildings.  Referencing the espionage tech example, a single tavern could give a research bonus to x number of libraries when upgraded to a lvl 5 tavern only.  Still exploitable, but extra taverns may not help you.

The GalCiv tree had techs like laser 1, laser 2, laser 3, ect.  That's called railroading, few outside techs had much influence on this one way linear path with a few notable exceptions.

You seem to be rather stuck on Civ IV ... speaking of cottage economies and specialist economies. Don't get me wrong, Civ IV is great ... but we are talking about Elemental here. There will be building based economies (kingdom) and unit based economies (empire) ... and also their will be, at a more micro level, a build first and recruit first dichotomy ... or more accurately, to stay and improve your city or to wander and recruit NPCs. Nevertheless, this second dichotomy seems rather luck based, and I don't see how you could make it properly balanced (giving just the right number of advantages to a "stay at home" sov.

One interesting advantage to staying at home could be in the realm of "random" events. I say it with quotes because it is mostly affected by your terrain environment and player actions rather than complete RNG. In any event, if your Sov isn't in a city, the AI or RNG is going to randomly pick one of your available options ... while if your there you get to pick the choice and get experience (for good choices only?)

I take it to mean you are "alone" but have the ability, magic in this case, to create arable land from whence there was none. This arable land attracts other stragglers who seek to put down roots. Some will have certain skills sets, everyone else will be a worker Bee type.

Research is simply an advancement Tool and the game does not actually need it, IF, I could find those skilled people who would then just need the materials to do whatever is they are good at.

A Farmer (knows how to Farm), Baker, Smithy, Big Billy Bob (who really likes to Fight/Protect) etc etc.

Since we will have Tech Tree(s) and buildings that come from them, just having them provide basic bonuses to the Kingdom is enough.

Making a City build to complex via 57 various Bonus combination's will, as noted, alienate some would be players. The idea is to have FUN, not have to run a spreadsheet in order to win.

IMHO

*finishes a game of CIV IV*

*plays his turn for a FfH PBEM - damn Stasis*

Nothing wrong with being stuck on CIV IV from this one, that's good stuff there .

There are always opportunities for abuse in systems, that's why designing successful and interesting strategy games is both difficult and rewarding.  Abusing systems is something that players/humans, especially those that play strategy games, try to do.  Abuse is a tricky word - take the CIV IV system, is it abuse to commerce-specialize your capital, run bureaucracy, and build as many science multipliers in your cap as possible? Or is that just good play?  I'm not saying this to go: "oh, all systems have holes, so the holes in this one don't matter".  I'm saying this because I think that we can fill most of the holes in this system, and be rewarded with a game that plays differently from the "standard" that CIV has set.

This vision I have for this system does not have every building generate RPs, but rather, only specific research buildings which do the "big" thing for that tech category - eg. War trains troops, Civics improves cities.  So the idea is, some inventions in this category are important to keep your kingdom developing forward (those which give buildings which generate RPs of some kind), but there are other inventions worth grabbing in the category, so you're balancing further development of your research capacity against practical applications now.

I have mostly been thinking in the kingdom mode, since the empires look to be geared in a rather dramatically different manner (the unit economy).  However, I do think some of the ideas we're tossing around are portable to both systems.  Eg. a war academy becomes a "Warrior Mystic" who's awesome at combat, can recruit followers to himself when in a city, and generates RPs which can be directed anywhere, but generates more RPs when the focus is War (to copy the last War Academy example I used).

No offense, but I hate it when anyone mentions a new system "alienating" players...

We live in a gaming age where everyone whines about innovations and originality, yet should you actually try new or different systems that break established norms you get whiners who complain because their brains can't just lie there lifeless and soak it all in... Pathetic.

This is kinda the best of such decisions I have seen thus far. Of course, you should also include a Magical Academy and an Adventurers Guild. Maybe even the (worthless) Guild of Diplomats. That way, you can only have a max of 2 ACADEMIES in any city, they all add research, but also add to their own specific field.

Either way ... I think its best if buildings that give specialized RPs don't do so in a potentially overblown manner, yet at the same time contribute significantly when you are researching X technology ... and not contributing when you are not. Or rather ... the War Academy might give a constant +5 research and +1 war research. When researching a War technology however, you get a total of +5 research and +10 war research.

I like Sareln's suggestion very much.  It provide one new important feature that is missing so far, i.e. how you build your research building affects the how fast a specific area of research can be advanced.    In current beta, there is no such sophistication; you pick your next area of research (mostly) according to your current need.

Using Sareln's system, it allows your empire/kingdom specialize in a specific area of science.  You can no longer change direction on a whine, unless you want to pay the cost of building/rebuilding the research infrastructure.

I personally will like a more 'situational' &  'achievement-based' approach of research.   This can put gamers into the drivers seat.  How they build, and more important how they act matters more.

War Academy

• +3 Research
• +5 Research, if researching War Tech
• +1 Research, if researching Magic Tech
• +(1 * the NET number of wars you've won) Research, if researching War Tech
• +100% Troop Training Rate

Civil Service Academy

• +3 Research
• +4 Research, if researching Civic Tech
• +2 Research, if researching Diplomacy Tech
• +1 Research, for every 20 turns that you are not at war with anyone
• -40% City Maintenance

Diplomatic Academy

• +3 Research
• +2 Research, for every ally you have now
• etc, etc.

Generic Academy

• +4 Research
• +1 Research, for each empire you are trading with
• +2 Research, if your empire rank last in term of tech  (aka the Tech Leak mod from CIV4)
• etc, etc.