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Tactical Combat discussion continuation

Tactical Combat discussion continuation

Beta1z_Tactical (8)

Originally, Elemental was going to have continuous turn combat. That effectively meant real-time. Ultimately, after playing around with it, we decided to implement turn based (simultaneous turns based on combat speed) with tiles.

The evolution of tactical combat in Elemental owes a lot to the beta program.  9 Months of public beta testing of the game engine with corresponding debates has led to some important changes that would not have happened otherwise. 

A lot of the discussion resulted in us thinking about the game in ways we didn’t think of before.  Specifically, how do we address game design issues that have plagued our genre for decades now? If you’re a strategy gamer, you know them well.

For us, the challenge of tactical combat has been about giving the player as much control as possible over how long tactical combat should last.  This ultimately led to the realization that the funnest way for us turned out to be to have the strategic elements of combat very clear and well defined.

Elements of Tactical Combat

In no particular order these are the things that matter:

  • Combat Speed. Your combat speed determines how many “moves” / attacks you get during a particular turn.  In the begging of Lord of the Rings, what makes Sauron such a bad ass is that he can attack so many units at once. He has, in game turns, an incredible combat speed.
  • Morale.  Unit morale matters but for fun purposes, we try to keep it straight forward. Units have High Morale (25% combat bonus), Normal Morale (no bonus), Low Morale (25% combat penalty), and Panic (you don’t control them). It provides a whole new avenue for us to play in.
  • Terrain. This is where the tile based part mattered for us (and for the AI). Some terrain, obstacles, and tiles simply provide better offensive and defensive bonuses, Controlling them matters.
  • WINNER. TAKE. ALL. This is the part where we want to hear your opinions. We do ask that you keep an open mind on what we ultimately go with.  My opinion is that the attacking player has the onus to finish the battle in N turns. After N turns, the attacker morale starts to go lower and lower at which point the defender can come out and make mince meat out of them.  The question is, what should determine what N is?  Or should we allow retreating? Should we allow draws?  I’m against retreats or withdraws because it’s one of those things that allows the game to drag on. It’s a strong personal preference of mine that two men enter, one man leaves. (Your heroes will tend to escape though).
  • Combined Arms. Archers have range. Mounted Warriors have great combat speed. Foot soldiers tend to have better weapons and defenses.  It means putting together your army matters a lot. It also is important to us that players understand precisely why they won or lost a battle.
  • Thresholds. Players can set the tactical battle threshold in the menu. That is, they can say it requires 10 units on each side before it’ll actually go into tactical battle.  At any point, players can have a tactical battle auto-resolve.

Remaining Questions and issues:

  1. Controlling the length of a tactical battle.  We believe that users should have a lot of control over how in depth they want their battles to be. Should a tactical battle finish in less than a minute or should they last 2 hours? How do we make it so that players can control this?
  2. Randomization vs. Richness. I won’t lie to you, we have a trade off in front of us and it’s a big one.  We can randomly generate the battlefields in tactical combat OR we can have it pick from a series of pre-made tactical battle maps.  The randomly generated ones won’t be as interesting but they’ll more accurately reflect the local terrain.  I’m preferring the pre-made ones because we can add some spectacular strategic when we’re crafting them and have hundreds to pull from.
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Reply #326 Top

Quoting Tormy-, reply 324

I am gaming since ~2000 and I know MoM very well...in fact I used to play older games even. The fantasy TBS genre is not very popular compared to the FPS/RTS genres for example. The TBS fans are dedicated gamers imo, so they should know about MoM. It's the "father" of the fantasy TBS games afterall.
End of Tormy-'s quote

You've also been posting on this forum for a while and thus are atypical. :P Not to mention you'd already have known the game wasn't turn based. :) (Until last week, anyway.)

Reply #327 Top

Quoting Tormy-, reply 321
Well most of the people [especially those, who didn't preorder] think that EWoM is the successor of MoM. Do you really think that those people are expecting to have an RTS or WEGO style combat system?
End of Tormy-'s quote

You know that is why I pre-ordered and got involved with this game, but that horse has already bolted from the barn. Age of Wonders was also touted as a spiritual successor to MoM and I think Elemental at this rate is going to be just as close.

Inspired by MoM it may be, a "Spiritiual Successor" it is too far of a stretch to call any more.

Reply #328 Top

Quoting Rishkith, reply 327

Quoting Tormy-, reply 321Well most of the people [especially those, who didn't preorder] think that EWoM is the successor of MoM. Do you really think that those people are expecting to have an RTS or WEGO style combat system?

You know that is why I pre-ordered and got involved with this game, but that horse has already bolted from the barn. Age of Wonders was also touted as a spiritual successor to MoM and I think Elemental at this rate is going to be just as close.

Inspired by MoM it may be, a "Spiritiual Successor" it is too far of a stretch to call any more.
End of Rishkith's quote

It seems like the Mom spiritual successor more like a marketing moniker more than anything.      You can't just have a graphical & AI update to MOM and expect market success, to be fair though.

==

I concur with Pigeon's recent posts here.

Reply #329 Top

Whether it was forethought, simple genius, or a requirement for the future modding abilities, it does seem a bit odd that SD built a new RT based game engine, with an obvious lean towards CT as the primary battle model proposed, then had to back down to the newest iteration of Tile/Turn based for Vanilla.

I really hope Brad does not take to long to, if he does at all of course, writes up a Post-Mortem for E:WoM after release. I am sure the actual reason for the change, at quite an expense we are told, to caused such a shift would prove quite interesting indeed.

I won't bother to speculate at this time. ;)

Reply #330 Top

I absolutely HATE a finite number of turns for the attacker.  IMO, Elven Legacy is an OK game when it could have been a GREAT game had it not been for the timed battles.  The attacker should be allowed to retreat ( at least part of the time).  They should pay for it but allow the retreat to happen.  If anything, allow for a die cast (based on current losses, general leadership and terrain) that would determine if an army or part of the army can retreat and then allow or disallow.  If not allowed, then fine, make it a timed (finite number of turns left) determine the end of the battle.

 

I am also a little concerned about premade maps.  Won't the battles ultimately get repeated and get very boring?

Reply #331 Top

Quoting John_Hughes, reply 329
Whether it was forethought, simple genius, or a requirement for the future modding abilities, it does seem a bit odd that SD built a new RT based game engine, with an obvious lean towards CT as the primary battle model proposed, then had to back down to the newest iteration of Tile/Turn based for Vanilla.

I really hope Brad does not take to long to, if he does at all of course, writes up a Post-Mortem for E:WoM after release. I am sure the actual reason for the change, at quite an expense we are told, to caused such a shift would prove quite interesting indeed.

I won't bother to speculate at this time.
End of John_Hughes's quote

I think they just wanted to make it as moddable as possible, and chose the "least controversial" (because people who buy Elemental expect a TBS game, so it's logical that the combat is turn-based too) system as the standard one.

Reply #332 Top

Sometimes, Frogboy's posts look like fishing baits or like 'preaching the false to know the truth'...unless they are just plain nonsense. (No disrespect, just a constatation. <_<   )

 

I didn't read all posts but I'd like to state something obvious:

why instate Morale to make formations and units retreat...when at the same time you don't want retreat possible in the game?

Either there is morale as in Dom3 and armies retreat or there isn't and they fight to death as in AoW (except YOU could retreat when playing the attacker).

Seems obvious to me at least...

 

PS: and for the other points, I am with RavenX and XeronX. :thumbsup:

Reply #333 Top

Quoting GCFL, reply 330
I am also a little concerned about premade maps.  Won't the battles ultimately get repeated and get very boring?
End of GCFL's quote

I don't honestly think so. The armies coming into each battle are different, and there would be several maps. It's not like every fight would take place on exactly the same terrain.

Previous games also had limited numbers of tactical maps, and honestly not having enough of them wasn't a complaint I heard much.

Reply #334 Top

Quoting _PawelS_, reply 331

Quoting John_Hughes, reply 329Whether it was forethought, simple genius, or a requirement for the future modding abilities, it does seem a bit odd that SD built a new RT based game engine, with an obvious lean towards CT as the primary battle model proposed, then had to back down to the newest iteration of Tile/Turn based for Vanilla.

I really hope Brad does not take to long to, if he does at all of course, writes up a Post-Mortem for E:WoM after release. I am sure the actual reason for the change, at quite an expense we are told, to caused such a shift would prove quite interesting indeed.

I won't bother to speculate at this time.
I think they just wanted to make it as moddable as possible, and chose the "least controversial" (because people who buy Elemental expect a TBS game, so it's logical that the combat is turn-based too) system as the standard one.
End of _PawelS_'s quote

Agreed. But then why create a CT based system, then scrap it (losing both time and Money), if the "least controversial" mode is obviously Tile/TB?

Reply #335 Top

I think the maps could have Pre-Made characteristics, but they should resemble the place where the battle takes place...

Anyway, I truly hope for the release of Beta 2 this thursday... :pout:

Reply #336 Top

Quoting John_Hughes, reply 334
Agreed. But then why create a CT based system, then scrap it (losing both time and Money), if the "least controversial" mode is obviously Tile/TB?
End of John_Hughes's quote

I guess they started with RTS, because it's "in fashion", used in most contemporary games. And later they realized that they are making a game for TBS fans, and they should use a tactical combat system that appeals to them.

Btw can someone explain to me what's the difference between CT and "normal" RTS?

Reply #337 Top

Has anyone considered that maybe the original combat system that they had come up with was either just plain bad, or no fun at all? 

Reply #338 Top

Quoting _PawelS_, reply 336



I guess they started with RTS, because it's "in fashion", used in most contemporary games. And later they realized that they are making a game for TBS fans, and they should use a tactical combat system that appeals to them.

Btw can someone explain to me what's the difference between CT and "normal" RTS?
End of _PawelS_'s quote

The differences are minute to observation and rather large under the hood.

CT is truly a Turn Based Engine, all actions happen on set ticks of time and simultaneously. The difference and I think this is the big one. Is it all happens non stop unless you pause it. So it is kind of a hybridzation of TB and RT. So if we say a turn is 6 secs. While you guys may follow their movement orders between seconds 1 through 5. Any actionable actions (such as attacking, casting spells, that kind of nonsense.) will all happen on second 6.

Where as in a RTS any Actionable Actions can happen on any given second depending on when you order them.

Reply #339 Top

I think that pre-made maps are fine AS LONG AS battles in cities are based ON THE CITY!!! :p (as in City battles being randomized and field battles being premade)

However, even for field battles I think there needs to be some sort of parameter ... and if the tac battle's location/etc falls outside of that parameter its a randomized map instead of a pre-made one.

Hopefully this wouldn't take too much time to implement (as opposed to fully one or the other)

 

As far as Winner Take All ... I think that each turn each army should allow for one attacking retreat and one defending retreat. An attacking retreat is controllable at low morale, while a defending retreat is Panic (no control)

I agree that after N turns an attacking army's morale should drop "somewhat" but never resulting in an automatic loss please. As in, if you start with a high morale, then after 3/4 N turns you get normal morale, and after 6/4 N turns you get low morale ... however NEVER panic. And if you have normal morale, after N turns you get low morale. And if you have low morale, you stay? at low morale but after 2/4 N turns you get increased chances for events to drop your units morale to panic, and after 6/4 N turns the chances increase to a ridiculous level (like simply being flanked) ...

However never a default win/loss, or even a default switch to panic (except for defensive retreat, especially if out of a city)

Reply #340 Top

thats the thing, i think that BOTH sides should have a dropping morale counter.  and i think that EACH unit tile should have its own morale. this starts at 100 morale units + leadership number of highest champion present.  each full combat turn the morale lowers by 1 point, each time the unit is attacked lowers by 1.  spells and other battlefield events lowers OR raises morale.  once a unit gets so low, it losses its bonus, then goes into the negative.  this way you are constantly trying to manage morale.

you could introduce special units such as flag carriers that increase morale on the battlefield.

once a units morale reaches 0 it panics and tries to flee the field.  if it makes it to the edge before you can raise its morale, then its gone.  it will be 1 square in the direction it fled from battle.

Reply #341 Top

Well most of the people [especially those, who didn't preorder] think that EWoM is the successor of MoM. Do you really think that those people are expecting to have an RTS or WEGO style combat system?
End of quote

No they wouldn't be - they wouldn't expect anything at all in particular. Most of the potential buyers have never heard of Elemental, beyond maybe the fact that it is a game in development, and will in all likelihood not hear much about it until much closer to release when actual previews and reviews start coming out. If they haven't ever really even heard of the game, then they probably don't "think that EWoM is the successor of MoM." And when they read those previews and reviews, they will learn what to expect from it.

Not to mention, I have been a TBS junkie since I started playing video games in ~1994ish. Before MoM even came out. I had never heard about MoM until our friends at Stardock announced that they were working on a spiritual successor to MoM 2 or 3 years ago. So even some of the most avid TBS gamers have never heard of MoM, so it wouldn't be too crazy an assumption that a sizeable fraction of more normal people who enjoy TBS games haven't heard of it either, let alone played it.

I think they just wanted to make it as moddable as possible, and chose the "least controversial" (because people who buy Elemental expect a TBS game, so it's logical that the combat is turn-based too) system as the standard one.
End of quote

But that doesn't make sense. People who buy Total War games expect a TBS game, but it does not have turn-based combat. Sure, by now there have been enough Total War games that most people who are likely to buy one would either know from experience that Total War uses RTS combat, or they'd have heard through the grapevine. But what about the first installations of the series?

And far more importantly, anyone who buys a game without reading about it at all deserves whatever it is they get if it turns out they thought the game would be different than it is. People expect what is advertised about a game, not the first association they make in their heads when they see the genre. Not to mention that nowadays the inside of the box cover of most games displays major game features quite prominently. People who don't know anything about a game don't expect anything about it; people who have done their research know what to expect.

 

...This thread has gone off topic. But I suppose it has gotten to the stage where it's too unwieldy to be very productive anyway, and I think most topics of relevant discussion have been more or less exhausted so I don't feel too bad for contributing to the derailing of yet another dev post. :P

Reply #342 Top

Quoting Rishkith, reply 327



Quoting Tormy-,
reply 321
Well most of the people [especially those, who didn't preorder] think that EWoM is the successor of MoM. Do you really think that those people are expecting to have an RTS or WEGO style combat system?


You know that is why I pre-ordered and got involved with this game, but that horse has already bolted from the barn. Age of Wonders was also touted as a spiritual successor to MoM and I think Elemental at this rate is going to be just as close.

Inspired by MoM it may be, a "Spiritiual Successor" it is too far of a stretch to call any more.
End of Rishkith's quote

Yep, that is true. :)

Reply #343 Top

Quoting Climber, reply 220


Quoting Climber, reply 107Combat Speed...
Morale
Hopefully, the mechanics that govern its change will be realistic.  An archer that runs of ammo, or discover their arrow cannot pierce opponent's exotic armor should have their morale dropped quickly. 
Morale of individual stacks should persist many game turns, until it returns back to its normal level.   Conditions like fatigue, killing a dragon/heor/sov, getting reinforcement should be well implemented by the morale engine.

WTA
Combat that should be allowed to lasts multiple days.   It is epic, fun, and resolve a lot of problems.  "Combat ends after N combat sub-turns", but it is continued when next game turns arrive.   Enforcement can be brought in from both side (and allies) when next game turn arrive.
 For normal humanoid, morale drops slightly the next day due to fatigue, unless they are the defenders under siege.   Troops that cannot be affected by fatigue won't face this kind of morale penalty (e.g. undead, dragon)

 Stacks "retreat when their morale fails" & panic.  Their exit to the edge (to the side they come from) is not controllable by player.  A % will be lost during their escape, this % depends on a whether the player is winning or losing the battle, or the movement speed of the stack, or is it a hero/Sov.

 Players should be allowed individual stack to "withdraw orderly", by moving to the edge of map.   However, if the player lost the battle that day (i.e. all remaining units killed), those withdrawn unit are regarded as retreated units instead.  So, a % of them will be lost too.
 The combat map should be large, compare to humanoid sizes.  It should take a rider maybe 4 turns to retreat to the map edge.  (I don't meant I've to move for 4 turns before I engage my opponent when combat starts)

 Controlling the length of a tactical battle
Multiple approaches are needed to resolve this issue.
1) Find a way to discourage kiting (in a big combat map)
2) Break the normal game turn into 2 phrases.  1st phrase is the strategic planning (using waypoints).  2nd phrase is the actual tactical combat whenever opposing stacks collide.     As a pre game option,  players need to agree on the maximum number of combat is possible in each 2nd phrase.   Most important combats are fought first, i.e. battles that involve Sov, or largest quantity/quality of combatant.   If the number of combats exceed the maximum allotted, all those lesser combats are auto-resolved.
3) Since TC phrase at the same time for all players, EWOM can arrange it in a clever way that all players can fight simultaneously. 
4) Referring to "Combat ends after N combat sub-turns" above, each sub-turns can have a time limit.   This time limit is a pre-game option too.



After browsing 4 more pages, I still found I like my suggestion best.   A shameless bump here.

I believe I offer something more concrete that should warrant more discussion.  
End of Climber's quote

 

Morale

I think your idea about morale sucks ;P


So if my archers does almost no damage to the enemy then on top of that, their morale goes down the drain as well??

That's a slippery slope and I don't see the point of that (and realism is an invalid reason to me.)

 

WTA

Lots of complicated rules, for what gain?

And again this realistic morale....and add % lost in retreat to that....No....

 

 

Controlling the length of a tactical battle

1. Completely against you here. I like kiting.

2. I believe an Initiative stat is better

3. Sounds good

4. I support a timelimit for everything except combat just like in AoW: SM.

 

I wouldn't have given feedback if you hadn't asked for it, but there you go.

Reply #344 Top

Quoting pigeonpigeon, reply 341

Not to mention, I have been a TBS junkie since I started playing video games in ~1994ish. Before MoM even came out. I had never heard about MoM until our friends at Stardock announced that they were working on a spiritual successor to MoM 2 or 3 years ago.
End of pigeonpigeon's quote

Ok, this is weird. o_O

Quoting pigeonpigeon, reply 341

I think they just wanted to make it as moddable as possible, and chose the "least controversial" (because people who buy Elemental expect a TBS game, so it's logical that the combat is turn-based too) system as the standard one.


But that doesn't make sense. People who buy Total War games expect a TBS game, but it does not have turn-based combat. Sure, by now there have been enough Total War games that most people who are likely to buy one would either know from experience that Total War uses RTS combat, or they'd have heard through the grapevine. But what about the first installations of the series?

And far more importantly, anyone who buys a game without reading about it at all deserves whatever it is they get if it turns out they thought the game would be different than it is. People expect what is advertised about a game, not the first association they make in their heads when they see the genre. Not to mention that nowadays the inside of the box cover of most games displays major game features quite prominently. People who don't know anything about a game don't expect anything about it; people who have done their research know what to expect.
End of pigeonpigeon's quote

Yes, I agree with this. Now let's take a look at EWoM's Gameplay page.

Elemental: War of Magic is a turn-based strategy game set in a world of magic, warfare and intrigue. In it, players take on the role of a powerful sorcerer known as a “Channeler”.Players found new cities, research new technologies, study spells, build a family dynasty, engage in diplomacy, fight wars, go on quests and much more as they strive to overcome all enemies and dominate the world.

Key Features

  • Randomly generated maps.
  • 10 Unique Factions (or create your own)
  • Design your own Sovereign.
  • Powerful Magic System.
  • Tactical Battles.
  • World Class computer AI.
  • A rich, story-driven campaign.
  • span single player sandbox mode.
  • State of the art, client/server multiplayer.
  • Low Hardware Requirements.
  • Extensive Modding Support
  • Warfare

    When two forces meet, players can choose to have those battles instantly resolve or go into a tactical battle mode to either watch the battle take place or control the action turn by turn. In battle, players can cast devastating spells, flank enemy positions, go for the high ground and much more.

    ->

    Quoting pigeonpigeon, reply 341

    ...This thread has gone off topic. But I suppose it has gotten to the stage where it's too unwieldy to be very productive anyway, and I think most topics of relevant discussion have been more or less exhausted so I don't feel too bad for contributing to the derailing of yet another dev post.
    End of pigeonpigeon's quote

    Yeah, the topic is more or less exhausted indeed, so I see no probs with having a  little off-topic discussion. Either way, I think that this off-topic discussion is exhausted as well. :)

    Reply #345 Top

    Quoting AceQ, reply 87
    I've been around the block just long enough to have played many of these concepts out, as part of the game itself or just part of friendly agreement in any given TBS based multiplayer game throughout the years.  It's really nice to see a developer taking these things into account. 

    WINNER. TAKE. ALL.
    It looks as if most people haven't played large multiplayer tbs games online.  WTA needs to be in for multiplay only.  Take the time to do whatever you like in single play.  Perhaps as an option to be selected so that 1x1 matches can play  to the best of each players abilities.  This isn't a 1x1 only game though, it has options for 4x4, 16x16?!  Could you imagine waiting 30 turns per battle per round of play?

    Needs to have:
    A very small decision/movement timer and a small-medium amount of turns/time to keep the game flowing.
    Auto Resolve lopsided battles regardless of threshold.
    Auto turn after x time to avoid stalls.
    Concede Battle ability (sometimes you just need to see one or two rounds)

    Threshold
    Army weight vs army size.  If two equal/weighted sides are going to battle, the option for tactical is warranted.  Titan on titan wouldn't break the threshold but 100x100 rats would.


    Controlling the length of a tactical battle.
    Yes.  Static or based on total units in play - capped at a certain value.

    Randomization vs. Richness.
    Randomization keeps the game fresh and avoids the eventual, oh map X, go here, then here.  Even with 100's of maps, they will all be seen 1000's of times over the course of many games and countless hours of play.
    End of AceQ's quote

     

    I have pluyed many multi- player games and personally your multi-player options should be just that an option. If all players want to not have tactical combat time limits then they should have the option to have this.  I know the people I play with would not want a time limit.

    Reply #346 Top

    Quoting Raven, reply 226



    Quoting Tridus,
    reply 205

    No, people remember. People have also bought the game with the ability to play multi-player in mind. If MP isn't going to be built to be playable, there isn't much point in building it at all. Is the goal here to build something people want to play in groups, or to tick the "we have multi-player" box on the feature list?

    If it's the second one, there will be some very dissatisfied customers.



    I don't think they'll gimp the multi-player. In fact the "Winner Take All" idea which no-one likes, Including my-self....WOULD BE PERFECT for MULTI-PLAYER.

    It WOULD Gimp up SINGLE PLAYER. For MULTI-PLAYER though, it is a great idea. Which might have been what the Frogster had in mind.

    As I understand it though, they Already know Some Single Player Mechanics simply WILL NOT translate into a "Fun" Multi-Player experience. They WILL make two separate systems. One for Single-Player, one for Multi-Player.

    Note: I Bolded things above so they would be seen easily. Not yelling.
    End of Raven's quote

     

    persoanly like i said it should be option me and my freinds just want to play game and make it last as along as possiable.

    we like long winded tactical turn based stragety games that can take week or month to play out.

     

    if person wants winner take all thats fine, just have a check box says winner takes all option at start of the game that when way you tryt o chase me down with your spear men that move 3 boxes vs my horse men that moves 6 I can out run you and when 10 turns go by i auto win. lol

     

    and people who dont not want to have battle take x number turns has abilty to chose unlimited combat with retreat widtdraw option or a no width draw option.

    maps would half to be big enough though I think for this feature to be work able for example large map and then you half to run your units back to begging of the the map your side of the map and if you retreat like that then maybe you take hit to your moral for so many x number of turns for combat.

     

    but people who dont not want that option should have abilty to turn it off.

    theres no reason why you cant have options for things like othere games have for example total war.

    Reply #347 Top

    Turn-based sounds like a great idea. And I think it will be lots of fun for the beginning of the game. But once you get later in the game it will quickly bog things down unless tactical combat is simplified into oblivion. I think this is going to cause problems for the game that will only become evident later when it's far too late to change back to real-time combat.

    Just think of how long your X-com turns got when you had the biggest ship and imagine trying to play that in multi-player for EACH BATTLE. :(

    Reply #348 Top

    Quoting Sarudak, reply 347
    Turn-based sounds like a great idea. And I think it will be lots of fun for the beginning of the game. But once you get later in the game it will quickly bog things down unless tactical combat is simplified into oblivion. I think this is going to cause problems for the game that will only become evident later when it's far too late to change back to real-time combat.

    Just think of how long your X-com turns got when you had the biggest ship and imagine trying to play that in multi-player for EACH BATTLE.
    End of Sarudak's quote

    That won't be a problem imo. 100 soldiers divided into 10 squads or 10000 soldiers divided into 10 squads shouldn't matter too much with regard to the length of the battles.

    Reply #349 Top

    Don't take this the wrong way anyone, I was as psyched about it as anyone, BUT, unless something radical is done with material costs, build times etc, fielding the ultimate 10,000 man Battle force may not happen on anything but the HUGEST of maps that make it so you never see another player for 4000+ Turns.

    Perhaps Beta 2 will shed some new light on the state of that game element but I am skeptical at this point. I hope I am totally wrong.

    Reply #350 Top

    Quoting Tormy-, reply 348


    That won't be a problem imo. 100 soldiers divided into 10 squads or 10000 soldiers divided into 10 squads shouldn't matter too much with regard to the length of the battles.
    End of Tormy-'s quote

    That's what I meant about simplifying the game into oblivion. This would mean late game battles will be exactly the same as early game battles except with different numbers by your units. This would be a great disappointment in my opinion...