black powder

No no no no no........ no^∞....... I wouldnt be so terribly opposed to it if it hadn't been for the fact that it seems to have been done too many times before.... even the freaking Legend Of Zelda The Twilight Princess had the Gorons cooking up chemically explosive bombs as opposed to bomb-flowers.........

Once or twice was fun, but now adding tachnological elements into a fantasy setting has started to set off my trendiness-detection scanners......

Nope, none of dem dere black powder shenanigans... nay ... I instead want Tesla Ray-Gunz ... Dimensional Portals ... Steam Powered Hover Fortresses, Nano-Zombie armies, Jet-pack legions, did I mention Steam Powered Helicopters and Air fortresses??

No Blackpowder. Only steam power-ed gizmos, and ray guns. Maybe electricity, but only if used in a cool way. I'd want a Castle that Can transform into a Giant Robot with Buzz-saws, Rockey Launchers, and an array of firebreathing Gargoyle robots.

Jump Directly from Swords and Axes into Bullet Trains, WizKid gizmos, and Cyberpunk. Skip all that Rennaissance bollox. Go directly from Harpoon Spitting Galleon to an Iron Clad whose Turret Spits out Plasma Beams.

Maybe add Tesla Cannons to a Man O'War? but heavens no bullets, cannonballs, or other fopas.

hmmm ... I can smell the Cloning Vats and the Mech Robots now. Yummy.

(in reality I wouldn't be against using low-tech guns)

This actually sounds like a great idea, but it seems they'd be overpowered compared to most regular units. A man with a gun can kill just about anything, and it seems that even a dragon would be brought down pretty quick (making assumptions for realism here). There'd have to be a strong downside to unlocking and using guns, maybe a penalty to magic?

Gunz?? bringing down a dragon???

*ahem* basically the only thing gunpowder would be better than would be *mundane* things. Magical Beasts, Magical Shielding, Enchanted Armor ... all of these things would be largely unaffected. A stone shield, for instance, could protect against many bullets. Also, water magic would temporarily disable all gunpowder based units for a certain amount of turns (say, if it was a *FLood*, *Hurricane* or *Rainstorm* attack, then all of the gunpowder would be disabled for at least a good 3 combat turns if not more. Once more, fire attacks could inadvertently (or purposely) trigger an explosion of gunpowder cache's.

Guns would be more expensive than Bows (probably) but would require little to no training, so overall troops Time would mean Gun units could be produced faster. However, even a little bit of Fire or Water magic can turn these troops some-what useless (or dead). Therefore, if you have enough gunpowder, you can simply Crank out hordes of these gundpowder units, and hope enough mooks make it to the enemy before they are exploded or soaked in water. I would start by saturating the battlefield with Oxygen, equipping Fire Shields, and spark the gunpowder/oxygen mixture with some minor Fire Spells. Then I would Duck and Cover when half of the map is covered in Flames, and bye bye goes 2000 musketmen. Cannons would be trickier I admit. More resistant to Water damage and Fire damage, longer range, and far more powerful Kick. The weakness, of course, is its slow movement. AND massive amounts of metal involved. A couple Well Placed Electrical Attacks would destroy them quite well.

Essentially you would need a good bit of shielding to protect your volatile new weaponry, so it would still require magic. In any event, perhaps anyone going this route should be met with Magical Penalties of some sort.

In any case, the more I think about it, the more I am against using blackpowder in this game

Actually, it seems that virtually all ranged units would be of, um, limited effectiveness in the middle of a storm or when they're on fire (I know I am ) . So musketmen would basically be faster trainging, higher damage, and (admittedly) higher cost archers.

Still, you're right that magic would ultimately be a lot more effective. I'm just not sure about the wholesale devastation you describe. Black powder has always been stored in a places that fit 2 requirements: they're waterproof, and they're as close to fireproof as possible (at least, they are if the guy carting it around has any say). So ultimately, I'm not sure they'd be any more vulnerable to the elements then standard infantry.

But certainly a Cannon would have a large barrel of Gunpowder nearby for explosive action? Every fire attack onto a cannon batter has a 70% chance of a Cartridge blowing up and destroying nearby cannons?

In any event, wet powder is like, a thousand times crappier than wet arrow feathers. Archers can't fire well in the Wind, but can still fire decently in the rain. Muskets can't (iirc) fire in the rain at all. I think it also depends on what level tech our gunz are. Im assuming we are using the very basic smooth bore musket rifles.

Hell no! If something like this will be added in the vanilla game, I will mod it out asap.

Possibly black powder, but not guns.  Just doesn't seem to fit the story for me.  I wouldn't want any more than Saruman's from LOTR.

LOL, gunpowder, Yes plz. And my channeler will bust out his spark spell and lolpwn every single gunpowder unit on the field. Gunpowder loses to someone who can create fire at a distance. Personally, i see no point in including it. However, a mention would be cool. For example, there could be an event where a one of your labs blows up and you get the text,

"Your research lab has blown up. Your advisors report that it was working on something called "Blackpowder". As the substance appears totally uncontrollable it has been ruled out as a viable reaserch path."

Something amusing like that.

I want elven mechas. Don't ask.

Hmmm ... I smell a spell called "Black Powder Cloud" ... envelops an area, extremely volatile. Sufficient Fire or Electirc spells will trigger it, giving a devastating explosion which kills all but the more hardened veterans.

(immediate 5 HP loss to all units, RNG to determine whether an additional 1 up to an additional 5 hp point loss)

OK, it sounds like it might lead into anime/FPS-land anyway

I want a damane who knows the difference between decorating the night sky for a party and blasting the crap out of enemies on the battlefield. Don't ask because you'll just encourage the WoT-haters. Besides, I don't think we're going to get serious secondary spellcasters in Elemental.

Black powder itself, I wouldn't want to see doing more than being a party favor. But that's a purely aesthetic thing.

Actually, putting it on ships might not be so bad. Although tbh, even there it is questionable.

maybe we should save this disscussion for Elemental 2: War of the Renaissance

I would also like to mod in Chemically Accurate Magic. Helium, hydrogen, phosphorsus, Oh My!

I really don't like guns in fantasy games.  Why, just a personal thing.  My favorite fantasy settings are Middle Earth and D&D and there are no/very few guns in those settings.  Settings that feel like those are the ones that give me nice warm fuzzy feelings.  Guns ruin that feeling.  I won't hate the game if it has them but I will be disappointed.

Actually, if there are dwarves, its always cool to give them muskets. But other than dwarves and pirates gunpowder should be out.

If gunz ARE in, I don't they should be reproducible, but instead as artifacts found to be made by some crazy guy in a workshop high up in the mountains. You can periodically buy a handfull of such gizmos. Would be Better than the original muskets ... probably a gear powered, rifled thing powered by something similar but NOT blackpowder. Basically a giant Steam-Punk sniper rifle to give to your elite archer units. And perhaps a very RARE machine like a magical cannon or something, but can only have a couple of them, because you have to FIND them (cannot build them, but can always pick up the pieces), and if one is destroyed and abandoned, it will stay on the map and you can come back to pick up the pieces.

Other than a few quirky/ partially magical devices of the sort ... nay! Nay I say!

While you fiddle with black powder, I'll be using crystal shard based guns (you read it here first!). *pew**pew*

Gunpowder - no way! Over my dead body (please don't shoot!)

Actually the issue has already been thoroughly discussed on the forum and a whole line of arguments presented for not including it in any official material (anacronism with castles and walls and swords being the first).

Yay! yay for crystal shard based guns!

(at least those are more expensive, require more training, fit better into a fantasy setting, and involve a certain Magical and Tech investment combination)

Pirates. There one must tread with caution. Tolkein-style corsairs and other random sea crooks are fine in my book, but anything resembling Pirates Of The Carribean would look extrermely out of place and kick the aforementioned trendiness-detection scanners up into high gear.

well, i can see that muskets are out of the question. Might i at least suggest crossbows?

p.s. i didn't relize people were so strongly opposed to early musket men. whoops...

Crossbows are great. In fact, I would be very, very miffed if they were NOT in the game.

And don't take it personally... people have different tastes, and as long as you are 1) sensible and 2) polite, you'll find the forums pretty receptive........