Might & Magic (Resolving the bigger empire is always better issue)

from Elemental Forums

Frogboy:


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With Magic, originally players had 5 different types of mana – life/death, earth, fire, water, air. Controlling a shard would, each turn, put mana of the appropriate type into a sort of mana bank.

So what’s the problem with that? Plenty. First, it means that the guy who sits on the shards is going to win the game. It really aggravates our biggest pet peeve in these kinds of games – the game being won in the first 10 minutes and then spending the next 2 hours going through the motions.
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So instead, your academies generate spell knowledge (spell points) which you can then spend, at any time, to learn a particular spell.  Much much more fun.
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The title of this post might as well be EWOM: The AVARTAR, or EWOM: Might vs Magic

Imagine the Sov is walking around the barren land after the cataclysm.  He see a spider cave far far away, there is a choice for him to make now.  Should him slaughter every living creature to gain experience and goodies, or should him try to improve the well-being of those spiders by introducing civilization to them AND live together in harmony?   When he decide to do the latter, the spirits of this world appreciate it more; the world will try to reward him with giving him inspiration on spell research or helping him defending his domain is under siege.

This is my another attempt to bring the 'Magical empire" to EWOM.   In the case above, when the SOV choose to Co-habitat with the native (still need to imbue the land with essence), the "Magic/Might gauge" is increased by 1.   When a SOV choose to establish a new city the traditional TBS way, the gauge is deceased by 1.

How much Spell knowledge (Spell points) academies generate is hugely affect by this gauge.  Each acadamies'output is increased by say 20% for every  "Magic/Might gauge" point you have.   The more natural dwelling you've, the better spell research ability you have.    The Spell point generated by academy is further increased (say by 200%) by a second  gauge, a % based gauge.  This % based gauge is calculated under the same principal, cohabitated native dwelling divided by settlement you currently own.

Academy is just one of the buildings affected by both the point based and the % based Magic/Might gauge.   Other buildings like a normal barrack will be able to churn out more mundane units like spearman, when the gauge is has a -ve value, and/or low % value.    

If you want to build a 100% might-oriented empire, the only rational action you engage a native dwelling like a minotaur dungeon is to explore & raze it for the reward.   If you want to build a 100% magical-oriented empire, you will try co-habitat by migrating some of your Fallen/human to live in the dwelling; and never build new settlement.   Once you've got your first minotaur dwelling, the map will likely spawn another dungeon for you to co-habitat nearby some time later.   Natural dwellings do have some limitation.  For example, you can only build a maximum of 5 city improvements, while a normal city can build much more. 

Both gauges are used to differentiate a magical-oriented and a might-oriented empire.  The % based gauge is used to give a bonus to small but purely might or purely magic empire.    The point based gauge is used to award/punish a large might/magic empire.

11,664 views 13 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

Neat idea. and very unorthodox. It will create some interesting choices along the way.

 

But does that mean that all magic is "life" magic? all magic is hippie goody-two-shoes?

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

Your idea has merit, but it depends on the spellcasting design Stardock intends. Wizard towers of Age of Wonders Shadow Magic or increasing cost a la Master of Magic.

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Intresting but, as said above, it leaves us evil channelers out in the cold. This would mean that i have to play nice with one group in order to get my skin-flaying spell. And good channelers would need to randomly slaughter some things in order to have any troops.

Nice idea but its entangled in good V evil.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting SmiteMeister, reply 1
Neat idea. and very unorthodox. It will create some interesting choices along the way.
But does that mean that all magic is "life" magic? all magic is hippie goody-two-shoes?
End of SmiteMeister's quote

When I was writing the OP, I did not think too much about the lore side of it.  It is not necessary 'life magic', it is still the same life/death, earth, fire, water, air elements SD envisioned.   It is just that when there are more mandune Might (or cities) on the land, the harder it is for a Sovereign to understand the Magical aspect  of the land.   The only way to enjoy the full understanding of Magic is to live in the environment with natives, rathering than surrounding oneself with cold stone walls.

Your idea has merit, but it depends on the spellcasting design Stardock intends. Wizard towers of Age of Wonders Shadow Magic or increasing cost a la Master of Magic.
End of quote

I am trying to influence how the Dev develop the spellcasting design.  & I do not understand what your 2nd sentence meant.

Intresting but, as said above, it leaves us evil channelers out in the cold. This would mean that i have to play nice with one group in order to get my skin-flaying spell. And good channelers would need to randomly slaughter some things in order to have any troops.

Nice idea but its entangled in good V evil.
End of quote

Have I mentioned good vs evil?  I afraid I have not.  You still can be a evil channeller.  The method mentioned in OP mainly says how (the % composition of cities vs native dwellings) you build your empire affect the how much magic you get.   I've not thought about anything related to good vs bad, but maybe you can elaborate?

 

 

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

In the case above, when the SOV choose to Co-habitat with the native (still need to imbue the land with essence), the "Magic/Might gauge" is increased by 1. When a SOV choose to establish a new city the traditional TBS way, the gauge is deceased by 1.
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What if i want my master race to control the world, and to exterminate every other species from the world? And i want to actually be able to cast spells?

The only way to enjoy the full understanding of Magic is to live in the environment with natives, rathering than surrounding oneself with cold stone walls.
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Why not? what if my magic is all about human artifice? what if my magic is focused on creation of buildings/forces?

It is an intresting idea, but it would prevent me from rebuilding the world as i choose if i want to use magic. I would have to keep those filty native beasts alive and well in order to research my killing spells.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Cerevox, the academy in the Might empire still allows spell research.  It is just that the rate of Spell research point generation is slower than the Magical empire.    You still be able to cast spells, it is just that usually the might empire cannot cast spells as high-end as magic empire that quickly.  And in the very late game, an might empire might even catch up on magic.

I had recommended specific academy (like life/death, earth, fire, water, air, summoning, illusion, direct damage, bluff/debluff) already in other thread, maybe certain academy like Morale Academy will provide a research bonus of Morale related spells when your Might Gauge is high?

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Yes, i get that. However, what if i want to have powerful magic AND kill the natives? My issue is that with your suggestion, you can either help natives and have strong magic, or hurt natives and have strong military. What if someone wants to hurt natives and be magical focused? or help natives but have powerful military?

The system your proposing locks every empire into 2 basic paths. Or, if you want to stay neutral, you have to sit there and count how many natives tribes you have killed/helped and ensure the number are equal, regardless of personel prefrence. It limits the possabilitys that each empire has by a great deal.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Yes.  in this proposed system, there is 2 path, plus the in-between path.   But what about the traditional TBS?  There is only one path, a very generic path.   This generic path offers all the possabilities and end-up a very bland gameplay experience, because all of your games' goal is to get the most magic & might by expanding and expanding further.   This proposed system does not force you to expand (that much) if you want to be great in magic, due to the % based gauge.

Essentially, this proposed system force you to choose, force you to commit to one of the 3 ways; & the in-between path might work almost like the traditional TBS game which have might & magic developed in a balanced way.

Quoting Cerevox, reply 7
What if someone wants to hurt natives and be magical focused? or help natives but have powerful military?
End of Cerevox's quote

I have no answer to that, but the traditional TBS way is always hurt the natives, so the player can hopefully be strong in magic & military.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

Rather then being only one path in a traditonal TBS, its more like a fan or numerous paths with dozens of grey shadings. In your system, you either have to go all one way or the other, or cut it right down the middle or you will end weaker then everyone else.

This proposed system does not force you to expand (that much) if you want to be great in magic, due to the % based gauge.
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You don't have to expand to be powerful in magic as the game is right now IIRC. The magic econemy is unconected to the mundane econemy.

And there is no traditional tbs way. civ4 has barbarians that you fight, yes, but AoW has natives that could fight you, or could join up. There are a wide array of options. I just don't want to see my options narrowed from many to 3 by an arbritary system.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Cerevox, reply 9
Rather then being only one path in a traditonal TBS, its more like a fan or numerous paths with dozens of grey shadings. In your system, you either have to go all one way or the other, or cut it right down the middle or you will end weaker then everyone else.
End of Cerevox's quote

My view is that in traditional TBS, although you seemingly has numerous path to follow, it is not.  The only path is to landgrab, so you has the maximum magic/might production possible.   The paths avaliable to player in traditional TBS is on how creatively you utilize these grabbed resources, in order to landgrab more.

In the proposed system, there is an option that you don't need landgrab that much to gain maximum spell research ability.  This can be a nice change for the genre.

The magic econemy is unconected to the mundane econemy.
End of quote

As far as the context of this discussion & what we currently know about EWOM, both magic/mundane economy is connected, because their power is still proportional to how much land you control.

Essentially, I am proposing some sort of indicator that reflects on how your empire is being built (whether it is magical/mundane).  And this indicator affects the actual productivity of some crucial buildings.

In traditional TBS, there is no such indicator nor building productivity variation.   Player always need an extra barrack to produce extra units; an extra academy to research spell quicker, an extra mana node to get extra mana.  This leads to bigger is always better.

Will such indicator (& varying building productivity) provide a different & enjoyable gameplay for EWOM?

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

I'm not really sure I like this idea. More magic if you cohabit? How does this make any sense?

I get your concerns. I think there's a better way to do it. What you're suggesting reminds me of what was used in Black & White.

You have to be reasonable. You can't stick to one or two cities and expect to be as powerful or more so than a nation with twice as many. There should be a happy medium. The bell curve is your friend.

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting MagicwillNZ, reply 11
I'm not really sure I like this idea. More magic if you cohabit? How does this make any sense?
End of MagicwillNZ's quote
Trying to understand what sourrounds you instead of obligating it to your will? So instead of using your tools to build your city in the way you want it, you build it according to the natural flow of the enviroment maybe developing a "symbiotic" relationship with it?

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

I find the idea of demiansky https://forums.elementalgame.com/375149 fits better and offers more possibilities for the channeller.

 The reasons were already stated by cerevox - i enjoy a druidic "let us all be one big happy family" game from time to time, but i want also be able to enjoy my necromantiic "undead legions of terror" game, also a very magical path, but very unfriendly to natives. The idea of Demiansky allows both and also allows to choose the building of a might or magic empire.