What is the opportunity cost of unit design?

Simply because I have to get this off my chest.

from Elemental Forums

The following discussion is posted not because I think user-designed units are a negotiable part of the game, because I have the strong impression that they are not.  I'm simply posting because I loved Master of Magic, HoMM 2 & 3, Master of Orion and the Civilization games and have strong hopes and anticipation of Elemental.

It sounds like some of the features that I was hoping to see in Elemental are not planned for the game, and I wonder whether many of them are absent because they are incompatible with  user-designed units.

1.  Magical creatures - One of my favorite features of MoM.  Are they rare and not part of player armies because it would be too complicated to implement them as user-designable units?

2.  Complex unit stats - If units are predesigned, you can safely have more complex (stat-wise) units because players will learn the complexities of a given unit over time.

3.  Understanding the battlefield at a glance -   Predesigned units are instantly recognizable on the battlefield from their appearance, so you know the military situation at a glance, without mousing over every unit to read its infocard.

It was fun to design the ships in GalCiv because of the variety in ship appearance you could create.  Without that benefit in Elemental, I beg the developers to consider whether the oppotunity cost of user-designed units is worth the things you have to give up?  Thanks, I felt a burning need to get that off my chest.

5,792 views 6 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

#3 is a good point.

I don't think we have to worry about #1.  Devs have said there will be dragons, rare & very powerful.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

The decision to make mythical creatures rare and seperate from your army is one of setting. The designers want to create a world sucked of its magic, which means that there aren't super magical unicorns running about. Personally, I absolutely love this approach: not only is it a departure from the standard fare of orcs and elves, but it also increases the impact of seeing  a powerful magical being on the battlefield. Having glowing magical creatures all over the place really dilutes their uniqueness, in my opinion.

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Krouv has a valid point. Pay heed to him.

Now, about the Standard Royal Army idea. I admit it is truly an endearing concept explained this way as it offers greater organization and easy-to-follow leads to the player. Yet, this does not completely invalidate the concept of unit design. How come? Explain I must, padawan. See, by creating units you are already assigning status to them, based on the model and weapons/armors. Models and weapons add to the status complexity if you have enough models and enough weapons/armors. Human resources might vary - lowland peasants might be good carrying a sword, highland ones good doing a charge, so on, so forth. Weapons/armors add another mix to the pot - swords have different utilities than, say, a maul and hardly one could affirm a chain-mail offers the same bonus of a full-plate. By the graphics, you could easily visualize and acknowledge each basic strategic bonus given by this triumvirate in your units as a bow is mighty different from a sword. Also, each unit will be given a "division name" making it easier for you to track what are they good for. Seems confusing? Damn sure it is, the ability of the player will be measured on how he can bring the most out his armies with the least number of different units, while still allowing for elite or specialized divisions.

 

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

#3 is an issue Devs has to address, probably by the use of some clever UI e.g. InfoCard.   At a glance on the battlefield, it might be difficult to distingish btw one carrying the "Almighty bow of dragon slaying" vs a clappy toy bow.  #3 is a good question indeed.

#2; I am sure there are pre-designed units comes with each fraction anyway.  They can be as complex as the Devs want.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

#1: It's their decision, and while I am not happy with it, I accept it. I am one of those guys who like the standard dragons/unicorns/orcs theme with A LOT of magic around (Sword Coast anyone?). The point is - if doesn't fit into the game more, then don't implement it; but be sure that you leave enough power to mod developers.

#2: I've posted already a few proposals about it. I think devs are aware of the fact that the units' stats are quite bare at the moment, but I seriously don't know how much more complexity they will allow. Let's just hope that standard things like: special abilities, initiative, etc. will be in.

#3: While I agree that there has to be some kind of UI card easily displaying all needed info about a unit, I have to say that there should be a kind of a 'fog of war' thingie. That means, you can't just know your opponent's units' stats (on the cloth map) right away. Knowledge is power, thus you should send some scouts/spies to check the details of his army. The other thing I proposed is that during the whole battle, FoW should be active. Of course, after a few units' movements it should be relatively easy to see all his units (and check their detailed stats also), but there should be still an option to hide some archers in the woods. This way the battlefield looks much more interesting and real-life-like.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

yea, the only extra stats that really need to be in are morale and fatigue. It would be nice if attack/defense interacts more than just a math equation, and there are worked in attack rolls and defense rolls (or some light randomization) .... add that to a "battle sim" where each soldier on the battlefield is its own actor (even though all soldiers in a unit share the same stats, other than hp I suppose), then it will all work out. I wonder how hard it will be for each soldier on the battlefield to have its own hp bar?

Morale and fatigue, however, can easily be tied to a unit as a whole. I only see HP as being a stat that each soldier needs separately.