Corrupted Sovreigns and their Children

from Elemental Forums

Ok, I know there have been a lot of threads about this popping ever since it was announced that you could marry off your children to create alliances, etc, but NTJedi's survey got me thinking; How would sovreigns that have corrupted their appearence through spells, evil, etc have kids? (And no, I don't want *those* answers:P )

What I mean is, Elemental is supposed to have extensive channeler customization, correct? I assume that some of this involves possably changing species, etc. I also assume (not that I have any basis for any of this;P ) that what "path" you take, good, evil, etc will affect your appearence.

So, if you are evil enough, you might turn into something like, to use a LotR example, a giant flaming eye. Now, how would a giant eye, you know, have kids? Since it would obviously be impossible for that to happen in the usual way, I have come up with some alternatives. And even if your appearence hasn't changed, what woman, or man, depending on your gender, would want to marry a evil overlord? Although, since you're already evil, you could just force them, but that might lead to some nasty repercussionsX|

Anyway, here are my ideas:

1. You "create" your children using magic and probably some essence. Both the upside and downside of this is that the child would have pretty much no personality or opinions of their own, other than what you tell them. So you wouldn't have to worry about them leading a revolt against you or anything, but on the other hand, when you're trying to find them a prospective mate, who would want to marry something so boring and souless.

2. Of my two ideas, this is definetly my favorite. Basicly, you forgo the concept of children entirely. To continue the LotR example, you use something like rings to create powerful minions (ie, Ringwraiths) So you create these rings or whatever, then you "give" them to other players, sovreigns, etc, but they don't know that this item will corrupt them. If they equip it, they are slowly (over a number of turns) turned into your minion. Maybe at first, after a while, they are forced to form a permanent alliance with your empire, then they become a vassal state, until eventually their kingdom is under your control.

And obviously, these items would have to provide some sort of bonus, to make the other sovreign want to equip it in the first place. And if they realize what they have soon enough, they can get rid of it, no harm done, but if they wait too long, they can't, and they are slowly turned to your side.

I think this could add some interesting mechanics to the game. When you're paying "tribute" to another player, you slip in your item along with credits, resources, tech, etc that you give them. Maybe there could be a spell that would reveal such items, so you know when you're being tricked. And if you know you're being tricked, you might want to go to war against that player, since they think you're stupid enough to fall for it:P

Of course, this is all moot if it turns out that you don't have the kind of channeler customization that I envisionX| But other than that, what are your thoughts?

elemental
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Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

So, if you are evil enough, you might turn into something like, to use a LotR example, a giant flaming eye.
End of quote

While the movies strongly imply, if not outright state, that Sauron has been reduced to an eye, the books make no such statement.  The red eye is Sauron's symbol, yes, and he is referenced that way several times, but it's more metaphorical than literal.  He has a physical form (else how could he wear the ring?) even if he is usually seen as an eye.  Consider the eye his metaphysical representation, rather than his actual form.

 

 

 

Other than that, it looks interesting, but the idea of turning another soveriegn just doesn't appeal.  Say, rather, that such an item could be used to turn an individual (such as a family member) against their own sovereign.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

So, if you are evil enough, you might turn into something like, to use a LotR example, a giant flaming eye.

While the movies strongly imply, if not outright state, that Sauron has been reduced to an eye, the books make no such statement. The red eye is Sauron's symbol, yes, and he is referenced that way several times, but it's more metaphorical than literal. He has a physical form (else how could he wear the ring?) even if he is usually seen as an eye. Consider the eye his metaphysical representation, rather than his actual form.
End of quote

That is a good point, that I had never really thought of. Although, I had always been under the impression that Sauron lost his physical form when Isildur cut the ring from his finger, and that he couldn't again take a true form until he regained the ring, so he was forced to take the shape of an eye. Of course I could have just misunderstood things.

You did remind me of something else, though, that has alwasy bugged me about my take on his physical form. The books said something along the lines of Barad-dur having a window from which the entrance to Mt. Doom could be seen. If Sauron was like the movies, there would be no reason whatsoever for such a window, although, since Barad-dur was built when he still had a humaniod (sp?) form, it might have had a use then.

Other than that, it looks interesting, but the idea of turning another soveriegn just doesn't appeal. Say, rather, that such an item could be used to turn an individual (such as a family member) against their own sovereign.
End of quote

Anyway, back on topic. I was on the fence about being able to turn a sovreign. Gaining control of another Empire/kingdom might be more than a little unfair. And if you're playing multiplayer (not that there is much of a chance that I will, don't know about anyone else) it would kind of suck to get an hour or two into a game, then find out that you're being taken over by someone else, and slowly "defeated."

Maybe it should be limited to family members, like you say, and maybe the kings/emperors of minor races.

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Perhaps as some outlet of the 'espionage' game?

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

 

At this time I've been given the impression all the sovereigns will have only human form.   I pray every night  sovereigns will be allowed to have different shapes and sizes such as a gorgon, cyclops, titan, demilich, as well as the human forms yet only time will reveal the truth.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Perhaps they start in human form, but could research spells and permanently change form, perhaps at the cost of some essence.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

All Ainur including Sauron and Gandalf had no physical form at the start. Only once they entered Arda they took on physical forms but that also meant they were bound to the world.

Sauron lost his physical form more than once so it seems to be possible to regain a physical form after you lose it but at a price. It takes quite some time to gather enough strength for that and there are permanent costs. Like when Sauron lost his body the first time during the fall of Numenor, he was not able to restore it with the old beauty. He was hideous after that time.

Gandalf lost his physical form after the battle with the Balrog and returned to Valinor in spiritual form. The Valar sent him back to complete his mission and helped him to restore life to his body but even with that help it took some time to recover it fully (he was very light at the start and weak). At the same time they lifted some of the restrictions on him that they placed on the Istari to prevent them from completing the mission with power instead of wisdom.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

I pray every night sovereigns will be allowed to have different shapes and sizes such as a gorgon, cyclops, titan, demilich, as well as the human forms yet only time will reveal the truth.
End of quote

I do too:pout: I always imagined it would be like Ynglaur said, and you start human/Fallen, but you can get spells that change your appearence, species (Please?:pout: ) etc.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Remember in LotR the wizard MADE creatures from trees and mud and other magical ingredients. This could well be used for creating offspring for non-human types just like in the movie. So, it would be very easy for the eye to have offspring as it could make them from molten lava and pumice rocks in the mountain of doom. Throw in some spark from it's eye and wallah an offspring.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting psychoravin, reply 8
Remember in LotR the wizard MADE creatures from trees and mud and other magical ingredients. This could well be used for creating offspring for non-human types just like in the movie. So, it would be very easy for the eye to have offspring as it could make them from molten lava and pumice rocks in the mountain of doom. Throw in some spark from it's eye and wallah an offspring.
End of psychoravin's quote

Actually in LotR, all life comes from Eru. Not even one of the Valar can create true life. One tried and created the 7 fathers of the dwarves, but they were not truely alive until he begged Eru to imbue them. Morgoth could not create life either. All he did was to corrupt, mock and alter existing life forms.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

You're reading too many books again AIAndy. I said THE MOVIE didn't say anything about any books. Things change from books to movies in case you didn't know. ;)

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting psychoravin, reply 10
You're reading too many books again AIAndy. I said THE MOVIE didn't say anything about any books. Things change from books to movies in case you didn't know.
End of psychoravin's quote

And by what possible, unimaginable, and twisted feat of cognition do you reach the conclusion that the movies, which came after the death and thus without the consultation and aid of the author of the books, are more authoratative than the books?

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting psychoravin, reply 10
Things change from books to movies in case you didn't know.
End of psychoravin's quote

In most cases the movies do a TERRIBLE recreation of the books.... 

LotR  were great movies....  but so many other  books to movies were drastically changed it's made me hate hollywood.  It's like the producers include their different ideas and tell the writers to take other ideas from the book(s) or whatever its original source then the writers take those and add their own ideas while changing others then the director adds his own ideas on the personalities of the actors...  and the final result is a whole new story which only copies pieces from the book(s) or whatever its original source.

#:(  

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

but so many other books to movies were drastically changed it's made me hate hollywood.
End of quote

Absolutly, anyone seen the Bourne Identity, Bourne Ultimatum and Bourne Supremacy movies and read the books? The first movie somewhat follows the first book, but the ending is rather different. The second and third movie have nothing in common with the books except the title and the name of the main character. Not that the movies are bad, as action movies they are really nice to see, but why use the title of the book when you're gonna change everything... (Yeah, I know, to get more people to see it off course...)

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting NTJedi, reply 12



Quoting psychoravin,
reply 10
Things change from books to movies in case you didn't know.



In most cases the movies do a TERRIBLE recreation of the books.... 

LotR  were great movies....  but so many other  books to movies were drastically changed it's made me hate hollywood.  It's like the producers include their different ideas and tell the writers to take other ideas from the book(s) or whatever its original source then the writers take those and add their own ideas while changing others then the director adds his own ideas on the personalities of the actors...  and the final result is a whole new story which only copies pieces from the book(s) or whatever its original source.

 
End of NTJedi's quote

Very, very true. With LotR, I can at least understand why they would want to cut out parts, because if they didn't, it would end up being 6 hours per movie (Not that I would have minded, but the majority of the theater-going audiences probably would have:P ) But the original plan for Return of the King was for Sauron to decend to the battle in front of the gate to Mordor and fight Aragon in the form of Annatar, but fortunately, they decided that would be straying from the books too far. I think that if they had gone with the original plan, though, I would have had to shoot someone#:(

IMO, the only movie based off a book that did a very good job of following the book was Holes. Whenever I watch a movie based off a book, I go through and try to find every place they deviated from the book, but Holes stuck to the book better than any other movie I've ever seen.

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting kyogre12, reply 14
Quoting NTJedi, reply 12



IMO, the only movie based off a book that did a very good job of following the book was Holes. Whenever I watch a movie based off a book, I go through and try to find every place they deviated from the book, but Holes stuck to the book better than any other movie I've ever seen.
End of kyogre12's quote

No wonder that movie was so awful.

Reply #16 from Elemental Forums Top

No wonder that movie was so awful.
End of quote

Hey, I liked that movie!  :P

Reply #17 from Elemental Forums Top

Since this thread is already hopelessly off topic (I know, partly my fault:P ) I figure it can't hurt at this point.

So, yesterday I saw Harry Potter and the Half-Bloos Prince. Now, whatever your thoughts on the series, that movie has to take the cake in terms of deviating from the book. I mean, holy cr@p!! It's just insane how much they changed. The writers/director should be shot for changing it so much!XO The whole movie was just full of "WTF? That wasn't in the book" moments.

Reply #18 from Elemental Forums Top

Biggest difference there, is that JK has complete control over it.  She is the one in charge of remaking it to fit the screen.

 

Sure, there's plenty of stuff changed.. but it all works.

Reply #19 from Elemental Forums Top

I disagree with HBP, it seems to me it's the least screwed up one since Chamber of secrets

Reply #20 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting KellenDunk, reply 19
I disagree with HBP, it seems to me it's the least screwed up one since Chamber of secrets
End of KellenDunk's quote

To each his own, I guess. I thought it was the most screwed up of all of them. Right from the very beginning. Harry hitting on a muggle waitress? WTF?XO No battle at the end between the Death Eaters+Order of the Pheonix, some wierd-@$$ attack on the Weasely's house at Christmas, no punishment at all for Harry almost killing Malfoy, 90% of the memories about Voldemort cut out, Harry wasn't Petrified when Dumbledore died, etc, etc, etc#:( There was so, so much wrong with itX|

Now, I realize that do to time constraints, they can't follow the book verbatim, but they could have done a much better job. Leave out all the extra, random cr@p and put things in that were in the book.

@Luckman: I didn't know that JK had control of the films? Not that I'm saying you're wrong or anything, but I thought she pretty much just made royalties for letting them use her books, but the director/writers got to do pretty much whatever they wanted. I know for a fact, thought, that the reason Holes stayed so close to the book is because the author, Louis Sachar, wrote the screenplay as well.

Reply #22 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Megajames75, reply 21
Off Topic by any chance?
End of Megajames75's quote

Very much so. But since I'm helping drive my own thread off topic, I think it's ok:P

Reply #23 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting kyogre12, reply 20
[...]

@Luckman: I didn't know that JK had control of the films? Not that I'm saying you're wrong or anything, but I thought she pretty much just made royalties for letting them use her books, but the director/writers got to do pretty much whatever they wanted. I know for a fact, thought, that the reason Holes stayed so close to the book is because the author, Louis Sachar, wrote the screenplay as well.
End of kyogre12's quote
Wow. I think Lugge just got served.

Reply #24 from Elemental Forums Top

Order of the pheonix was the worst the longest book became the shortest film? WTF!
You're nitpicking about Harry not being hidden under his cloak and magically petrified.  That detail wasn't important.

Reply #25 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting KellenDunk, reply 24
Order of the pheonix was the worst the longest book became the shortest film? WTF!
You're nitpicking about Harry not being hidden under his cloak and magically petrified.  That detail wasn't important.
End of KellenDunk's quote

Meh, I disagree. I think it is an importante detail. Everything else about Harry as a character says that if given the opprotunity, he would have protected Dumbledore, and tried to fight off the Death Eaters, but in the movie, he just stood below and watched, which, imo, is not what he would have done, regardless that he swore to obey Dumbledore's orders. I just don't think it fits his character, which is why I think it is important.