1 vs. 1: Frog vs. AI

By on September 12, 2012 6:11:37 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001
+1495

FrogBoy

AI

Faction: Altar
Strategy: Strangulation
Capital City: Athica (4/3/2)
Intelligence: Not much
Faction: Kraxis
Strategy: Aggressive
Capital: Goyarh (4/2/2)
Intelligence: Challenging

Turn 10

Turn 10

Capital City has Enchanted Hammers.

Capital City has Meditation

Sovereign is level 3

First Pioneer is done

Capital City has Inspiration

No second enchantment

Sovereign is level 1

Pioneer under construction

Turn 50

Turn 50

  • Cities: 3
  • Outposts: 2
  • Sovereign: Level 6 (with Courage, Stoneskin, Burning Blade, Cloak of Thorns)
  • # of Champions: 1
  • None of my new cities have essence
  • Cities: 2
  • Outposts 2
  • Sovereign: Level 2 (with Burning Blade)
  • # of Champions: 2
  • Capital city now has inspiration and meditation (Karavox doesn’t have Enchanted Hammers)
  • Second city has 1 essence (inspiration cast)

Turn 75

Turn 75

Has decided it’s time for the AI to die.

Doesn’t know they’re going to die.

Turn 100

Turn 100

  • Conquered their colony city
  • Deb (Sovereign) is level 10.
  • Use superior mobility to bypass screening armies to attack capital. Capital taken.
  • By turn 110, they are dead.

  • Karavbox is only level 5
  • Capital is defended well. But they send out armies to try to thwart my build out.

 

(To be continued)

Screenshots:

image

I want that scroll!

image

AI bug found, they don’t put any concern on player build up unless THEY dislike the player.

image

Roughly even holdings in the world.

image

First enemy city taken.

image

They see my build up and try to send forces to take me out. I bypass those units and take their capital.

image

They want their capital back

image

Their final, desperate battle. It is the end for them.  They might have won but the AI failed to treat my ranged *spells* intelligently and as a result, they crawled towards me to try to get the first Melee hit. I took advantage of that to use flame dart on them.

image

…and so to work I go…

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September 12, 2012 5:36:16 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

get him!

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September 12, 2012 6:11:10 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


Point of order, can we please take the extra D out of Claresden?

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September 12, 2012 6:13:14 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Strangle him to death!

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September 12, 2012 6:54:33 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

So where is the random event to throw everything into a tailspin?

Just kiddn'.

Your mastery is that you make people feel your pain in trying to code that "perfect" AI.  I feel for ya' and wish you the best.

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September 12, 2012 6:59:21 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums
Is that evil chuckling I hear coming from your office, Brad? Looking forward to seeing what devious new tricks the AI has in the next build!
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September 12, 2012 7:05:31 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


hope this was still beta 4 AI.

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September 12, 2012 7:11:59 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


Hey Fb, did you take a look at my latest AI balance? I have been using AIMilitaryStrategy to make them prioritize the same things I do. Check out these numbers:

 

Types

 

Techs

 

I choose all the ones that make sense for each Sov, though I will be switching that designation to the actual faction traits soon enough. Gilden for example would get the clubber and armorer types. If you look at the techs, everyone wants alot of production and has a burning desire for groups. This have been extremely effective for me in assigning each faction a particular tech and build order. As my latest video shows, this leads to a much more competitive midgame. Of course I have the early game set up to be peaceful while we expand, but that is a conversation for another time.

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September 12, 2012 7:18:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Something you should have checked is what items is he using. In my games, I noticed he wasn't very smart in that regard.

 

Also, I just want to say that this map is fucked up, and you had a huge advantage. Kraxis had no room to grow. If he went south (which I believe he did) he had nowhere to place his first city for roughly 30 turns, with a lot of fighting at the start. Not only that, his only alternative was to head back and go north, which is usually no better than the first direction.

If I was in his shoes, I would most likely lose as well for these reasons. Something he might have been able to do to solve this issue was to create a scout and go north. This might not work, though, due to monsters, and being unable to dodge them in such a narrow path.

I would like to add that, if I would ever start in a position such as Kraxis, I will ctrl+n for a place not stuck in a corridor.

 

Continuing with the map:

From what we can see, roughly 50% of the map is impassable, and 70% of the remaining land is covered with trees/swamps/rivers. This leaves us with quite a bit of land we can move "normally" on. I would really like it if it would be possible to reduce the amount of impassable land, and maybe somewhat the amount/effect of the "slowing" areas, allowing greater mobility around the map.

For quick reference, the CIV games we all know and love, and MOM, had roughly 20-80% of the land covered by large water bodies (which are passable by boats), and about 50% of the land with forests (which were cut down in civ) and hills, letting troops move around much more efficiently. The land is usually either a continent, large island, or small island (depending on choice), so nearly 100% of the near area for expansion is reachable, and only 50% of it slows you down. In a similar 1v1 game in CIV, the amount of impassable land will be insignificant.

Another solution is to allow the sovereign to level the area for his needs, and not in a crazy manacost.

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September 12, 2012 7:31:39 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I would like to add that, if I would ever start in a position such as Kraxis, I will ctrl+n for a place not stuck in a corridor.

The AI didn't pay for the game, so no Ctrl-N for them.

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September 12, 2012 8:01:06 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

I would like to add that, if I would ever start in a position such as Kraxis, I will ctrl+n for a place not stuck in a corridor.

The AI didn't pay for the game, so no Ctrl-N for them.

 

That's right they didn't! They are being paid to do a good job (or well, we are paying you to make an AI that does a good job).

What I tried to say is, in a "perfect world", I will play against an AI and feel like I'm struggling to beat him. When I win, I will believe I won because I'm better than him. I will know that I didn't have to limit him (easier AI levels) or to grant him bonuses in order to beat him. If a player (or AI) starts in a bad location (read- unacceptably bad location), that player has high chances to lose the game, before he made a move.

Playing, winning and realizing that in truth your enemy was handicapped do not grant true gratification, thus I believe it shouldn't happen.

 

Also, you raised an important question- what will happen in a game where the AI can do the same minicheats a player can (re-randomizing the map, taking saves)? I think I should remember this for when/if I do a doctorate and needs something to research.

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September 12, 2012 8:27:04 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

AI needs to put higher priority on using its essence, even if it's just Sovereign's Call and dispelling that later on.

 

 

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September 12, 2012 8:53:20 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

They might have won but the AI failed to treat my ranged *spells* intelligently and as a result, they crawled towards me to try to get the first Melee hit.

After the first few dozen turns of the game, this strategy is going to be almost always wrong.  The only case where it matters is if you're attacking a low-defense target with one or two low-defense units.  That is, if getting hit before you can attack will reduce (or eliminate) the units ability to attack. 

If you have more than two units of any defense, it doesn't matter, since when your opponent lands that first shot, the other units will be able to get theirs in.

By the time there's any real warfare between empires, most units can generally take a couple shots before becoming ineffective, and there are generally more of them.  So they shouldn't be angling for the first strike as much as they are attempting to anticipate how the opponent will attack.

A standard strategy is to move your highest defense units (or most expendable units) out in front to take the hit from the first line attackers and then bring your more fragile/expensive/powerful attacking troops in behind to counterattack.

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September 12, 2012 8:56:05 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


I'd like to see some of those build up diplomacy notices a la Gal Civ II where the AI says "I see what you're doin' thar".

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September 12, 2012 9:59:27 PM from Brad Wardell's Little Tiny Frogs Brad Wardell's Little Tiny Frogs

I learned a lot from playing this game. I'll put up more of these if people would like.  I did a lot of work on this.

With regard to unfair starting conditions -I think players who use Ctrl-N should play the AI on one level beyond challenging to make it fair. Because those who hit Ctrl-N to get that good starting spot are getting a pretty huge advantage. 

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September 12, 2012 10:25:47 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums


I really really want to see how you do AI stuff and test in general. So, either keep posting these or pull the trigger on that 24hr reality TV show.

 

The Real World: Stardockia, coming to your television sets this November.

 

I heard they are canceling Joss Whedon's new SHIELD series to fit it in. Better be good.

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September 12, 2012 10:26:44 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Thanks again for posting these.  Love seeing the thought progression. 

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September 13, 2012 1:30:03 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
I learned a lot from playing this game. I'll put up more of these if people would like.  I did a lot of work on this.

With regard to unfair starting conditions -I think players who use Ctrl-N should play the AI on one level beyond challenging to make it fair. Because those who hit Ctrl-N to get that good starting spot are getting a pretty huge advantage. 

 

well it depends, this is a strategy game, luck shouldnt matter

if i play magmar and start with 4-2-2 with 4 water shards and ctrl n until i get  a 4-3-3 with 3 fire shard then ok i shouldnt play challenging then

 

but in general start matters too much and it shouldnt

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September 13, 2012 1:39:16 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The AI should get the same start location the player does. I don't care if you Cheat your way to that, Frogboy. It matters so much, and why should a massively random variable decide the entire difficulty of the game when we have settings to do that?

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September 13, 2012 3:17:41 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

I would more like the idea of Ctrl-N giving each player an equally good or bad start.  And if you get something really good, the universe says 'okay but in order to balance things out I'm going to put a big smelly swamp next to you.'

That way, the temptation to keep hitting Ctrl-N might be replaced with blind panic as you find yourself in turn marooned on Ceti Alpha VI, on an island surrounded by rising waves, and then neighboured by life-sucking aliens who were sleeping until you showed up.  Oops.  You would wish that you could hit Ctrl-P to go back, back, back to that start which was a bit meh.  Meh is better than running into Khan and his genetically-engineered supermen.  Meh is better than making your base in the sinking city of Atlantis.  Meh is better than the Pegasus Galaxy infested with Wraith.

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September 13, 2012 4:06:14 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

If anything, give an option at map start for even or uneven start locations.

I understand the strategical balancing aspect for competitive players but I personally love the randomness to unbalanced start locations.

After all, life is not fair and is random and I love the challenge that brings and the outcomes that can come from having good and bad start spots. It keeps it interesting and alive so please do not put an end to random start locations!

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September 13, 2012 4:20:01 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting keet1,
If anything, give an option at map start for even or uneven start locations.

I understand the strategical balancing aspect for competitive players but I personally love the randomness to unbalanced start locations.

After all, life is not fair and is random and I love the challenge that brings and the outcomes that can come from having good and bad start spots. It keeps it interesting and alive so please do not put an end to random start locations!

 

this is totally nonsense

 

if you want an unbalanced game, one way or another, just set diff to higher or lower accordingly

 

some randomness is cool to differentiate each game but it can still be balanced

while right now start can even have NO starting point at all, i found couple of starting locations i had to move 3 times to get to the capital spot... and it was even bad, if you want to play something like that, just idle 3 turns

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September 13, 2012 4:50:37 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
I learned a lot from playing this game. I'll put up more of these if people would like.  I did a lot of work on this.

With regard to unfair starting conditions -I think players who use Ctrl-N should play the AI on one level beyond challenging to make it fair. Because those who hit Ctrl-N to get that good starting spot are getting a pretty huge advantage. 

In 0.95, I did a game on hard and squashed the AI like a bug. I ignored the cities by midgame, and just walked around with my sovereign. It was, to me, really really sad (note I used ctrl-n, but in the end it mattered little).

While I'm sure that it might not be as easy in 0.952 due to sovereigns having 5 picks instead of 6 (always using costumes), the general concept of my tactic didn't change.

A link to my encounters with the AI that you ought to check in order to improve it are found in my report:

http://forums.elementalgame.com/430064

 

Quoting keet1,
If anything, give an option at map start for even or uneven start locations.

I understand the strategical balancing aspect for competitive players but I personally love the randomness to unbalanced start locations.

After all, life is not fair and is random and I love the challenge that brings and the outcomes that can come from having good and bad start spots. It keeps it interesting and alive so please do not put an end to random start locations!

Making sure every player gets the same 3/3/2 (or whatever) is not an issue, as much as making sure everyone got room to expand into and such. 

Example for imbalanced start: A starts with a 3/4/3 city with forest and river, no impassable terrain, and a couple of rare resources and B starts in a corridor with 4/2/1 with no resources or room to expend... We already who will win.

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September 13, 2012 4:58:37 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

One idea/suggestion: make Tower of Dominion upgrade a starting location to a certain minimum, and maybe cut the building time.

 

Or create some game mechanic to guarantee a minimum 4/3/1 start. 

 

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September 13, 2012 6:22:56 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Quoting Raledon,
Quoting Frogboy, reply 10
I would like to add that, if I would ever start in a position such as Kraxis, I will ctrl+n for a place not stuck in a corridor.

The AI didn't pay for the game, so no Ctrl-N for them.

 

That's right they didn't! They are being paid to do a good job (or well, we are paying you to make an AI that does a good job).

What I tried to say is, in a "perfect world", I will play against an AI and feel like I'm struggling to beat him. When I win, I will believe I won because I'm better than him. I will know that I didn't have to limit him (easier AI levels) or to grant him bonuses in order to beat him. If a player (or AI) starts in a bad location (read- unacceptably bad location), that player has high chances to lose the game, before he made a move.

Playing, winning and realizing that in truth your enemy was handicapped do not grant true gratification, thus I believe it shouldn't happen.

 

Also, you raised an important question- what will happen in a game where the AI can do the same minicheats a player can (re-randomizing the map, taking saves)? I think I should remember this for when/if I do a doctorate and needs something to research.

 

How do you know they don't already?

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September 13, 2012 6:37:14 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Because they are getting beaten practically all the time even at high difficulty levels?

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