DGB246

Join Date 04/2006

Why are some spells so expensive?

I'm surprised this has continued through so many betas but some spells cost far too much mana for their effects. Some off the top of my head include incinerate city, bless city, curse city, destiny's gift, raise land, lower land.

All of these spells cost hundreds of mana for very marginal effects - I thought incinerate city would be really cool instead it does one hp damage to each unit in a city (no scaling) for *200* mana! (edit)

There's too many daft spells like this that basically never get used. Stardockians can you please look closely at these during the balance phase and price them accordingly.

Locked Post

Advanced Search

Watch this post

Do not email me updates for this post Email me updates for this post

Successfully updated karma reason!

Rasie Land and Lower Land do not cost enough, imo. 50 mana is nothing and you can completely terraform your nation if you wanted....and given the time.

I do agree that further balancing should be done...

Successfully updated karma reason!

I disagree about raise / lower land. IF it completely removed a mountain and allowed for path through in one casting, yeah it'd be possible to double or 5x the cost. BUT, it doesn't it requires multiple castings and is a pain in the butt. It supposed to be cool, you know having a shortcut and all. The execution is meh.

I think the enchant city spells just get lumped into a it must cost huge mana pile. Maybe this will get sorted in the next beta, like either scale their effects or reduce the cost..

Successfully updated karma reason!

@GFireflyE

Do you actually use raise/lower land or are you just playing devils advocate? 50 mana to slightly edit 1 tile is ridiculous in my opinion. I also think 50 mana is alot, especially in the early/mid game. If you got a 2x2 square for raise/lower land I'd think thats fair - you'd still need to cast it twice to create a shortcut through a mountain.

It doesn't create hard barriers to movement all it's supposed to do is allow shortcuts but it's too friggin expensive

Successfully updated karma reason!

I honestly think raise/lower land is worth the 50 mana, you don't need to lower a mountain twice to walk on each tile, while hills aren't as fun to walk on it sure also is a way to "trick" your way into a closed canyon. Don't underestimate the power of making the land look like you want it.

That said, if it costed 40, 45 or 50 mana wouldn't bother me, if it gets too cheap it'll be a very important spell to carry.
I never have problems with the cost of raise land, and am happy it doesn't move mountains cheap, makes it feel more epic when you finally can lower a damn mountain in 1 turn.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Successfully updated karma reason!

Destiny's Gift & Destiny's Insight are way overpriced.

Successfully updated karma reason!

@Kongdej

The mountains are 4 tiles across so you have to do a line across them - i.e. you have to cast it 4 times just to get across one mountain range - 200 mana

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting DGB246,

reply 7

@Kongdej

The mountains are 4 tiles across so you have to do a line across them - i.e. you have to cast it 4 times just to get across one mountain range - 200 mana

And I will gladly pay that for the powerfull ability to cross a mountain, that said its another reason why "Master Scouts" is slightly broken imo

I played enough games, and used raise/lower land to be aware of the mana cost, and I think its in a fine place atm. Power comes with a cost.
That said I miss being able to create mountains, and hopefully someday create ocean back up.

@ Cohol: Are you considering the power of permanent boosting a champ?, destiny's insight IS useless though, 25 xp for 250 mana is... worthless
Destiny's gift need to cost some heavy amount of mana so you wont just spam it on all your champions, or be limited in some other way.

I am not trying to be a devils advocate here and just counter argue over what you guys are saying, I think there are plenty of spells with a waaaay too high mana cost, I am surprised the mana cost on flame dart have risen so much over the last beta.

I agree that bless city, incinerate city, and some other spells that I need to be looking at before mentioning is waaay too costy compared to what they do.

Just raise/lower land should be "somewhat" expensive, so I can't just spam it all around, and the same with destiny spells.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Successfully updated karma reason!

I agree with the people who disagree about Raise/Lower land. Those spells should not be any cheaper. You should not be able to use them casually, at least until late in the game.

I do also tend to think that Anti-City spells should be prohibitively priced, and not intended to be used until later in the game. But perhaps some of them need to pack a little more punch for the buck. Incinerate City does seem underwhelming for the title. If the AI ever learns how to use map magic well, and decides to cast against my capital in the early game, it would be a world of hurt. So I wouldn't want to see them cheaper.

I'm actually surprised at how cheap some of the most effective spells in the game are. Things like Blind and Shrink can be tactically devastating, allowing you to defeat monsters well over your head, which you'd otherwise have to spend hundreds of mana in offensive magic to defeat. Passive buff spells are by far the most economical in the game, in terms of power vs cost.

Successfully updated karma reason!

@Blingjack

I think things like blind etc are priced right, it's other spells that are too expensive. I figure that loads of spells are really expensive to prevent the player using them and then it avoids having to programme the AI to use them. I honestly think they should drop prices for half the spells in the game because more spellcasting keeps things more interesting.

I'm a bit wary about drawing attention to it in case it also gets hit with the nerf hammer but pillar of fire is one of the best spells imo but I never see the AI using it - I think that costs 65 mana, a third of the price of incinerate city but hugely effective.

If Stardock don't fix the mana costs I'm sure modders will but really they should be adjusted in the base game

Successfully updated karma reason!

The other factor you might not be consider, DGB, is how hugely variable your mana pool is from game to game. You expand near a bunch of shards (or play with the shard setting to "dense") and mana is far easier to come by (in one default-option game, I was getting 100+ mana per turn near the end, so I played around with those spells simply because I had mana to burn).

That said, balancing will be a focus of the devs soon, and magic could certainly use some serious polish.

Successfully updated karma reason!

@DGB246

I do use the lower/raise land spells.

It's too easy to block out an enemy from reaching or...or the reverse, to push your zone of control across and lower the mountains for a back door assault. You're changing the planet...it shouldn't be a casual event...

Successfully updated karma reason!

Alstein

Join Date 07/2004

+55

I'd settle for the AI being able to use raise/lower land.

Successfully updated karma reason!

SeanW3 convinced me that it's almost pointless to try an balance magic cost until the AI knows how to use magic broadly. We have no idea how much mana we'll have when the AI starts fighting back with buffed armies, and overland magic.

Right now nothing in the game seems too expensive to me in mana cost, but that's because the AI isnt forcing me to burn my mana to stay competitive.

Successfully updated karma reason!