FE beta 3 - what's missing? Stuff for the sequel

By on July 1, 2012 1:15:31 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Heavenfall

Join Date 07/2008
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I realize FE is still in development, but at this point you guys probably have the major features set in stone. Here are some things I feel is missing from FE, and thus really should go into the sequel. Or you could read it as a list of things missing to take the game from "good" to "great" at release.

1) Sieges. The cooler this is the better the game will be. Mid- and late-game are all about capturing cities (at least it is right now beta3) so it needs a properly epic format for it. A fight in front of a city just isn't it. My ideal siege format is Shogun 2 (cities starve while sieged, takes many strategic turns, can get reinforced meanwhile), but it'd be with much smaller maps for FE. If possible, and again this is a major feature, I would like the option to design my own castles partially, by placing arrow turrets, monster pits and traps on the map for my own castles (walls would always be the same for each type of castle). Spells and essence also play a huge part here. Castles are destructible, and there is accuracy reduction when line of sight is poor.

2) Caves, dungeons, other planes of existence. This would need to be a concept within the lore of the game obviously, but I know we have things like demon portals and other worlds (where the Titans came from). Basically, like other games have, you can leave the strategic map and travel into another strategic map - be it underground, into hell, a floating isle and so on. Secondary minor strategic maps filled with awesome. See Warlock: master of the arcane. Also this feels like the natural expansion for Wildlands.

3) Naval warfare. Personally, I hate it in computer games, but I can't imagine a top-of-the-line fantasy 4X game without it. It's a big chunk missing.

4) Crafting. This one is "extra seasoning". It is not needed to make a great game, but if done right it will make it even greater. Fairly straightforward, throw mana, crystal, metal and every other resource you can think of into a melting pot, see what comes out. Preferably you put in a "base" item like a plate helmet and the effects stack onto that. That creates the basic scaling system for crafting - you can make leather and such if you researched it, or a special plate helmet if you researched or found one normal. Crafted items should be randomized with a ton (100+) of fun special abilities, including being "cursed" with negative effects. Magical items could maybe be broken down into resources as well, if you research X. Special champions might increase your luck a little when crafting. Throwing an shard into the melting pot would be cool too.

5) Independent city states. It is in my opinion a feature that Civ5 perfected. In E:wom there were minor factions but got removed until you could spend time developing them. Diplomacy comes into play, but also they are a great "in" for having special units or features, and thus greatly increases randomization(=replay) of games. Being allied to one minor faction means you can train special mounts. Allied to another = humanoid monsters won't attack you. One minor faction just sells potions. Another builds golems. They are conquerable, but can put up a good fight and you lose a bit of the bonus if they get conquered. They make demands every now and then - kill a monster, attack that sonofabitch, bring us food and so on.

6) Lots of new tactical stuff. I know this is vague, but look at Might and Magic Heroes 6, it is pure candy in tactical battles. The basic unit for the Haven faction has a trait which makes the unit redirect 50% of all damage suffered by adjacent friendlies to itself. That trait alone is better (more interesting) than 90% of the traits in FE. That's just an example, but to me, the organic way forward for making units while keeping them designable is mutually exclusive traits. The traits would go into three categories: special actions (sunder armor, scare horses), defensive properties (fire resistance, regenerate in battle), utility (low wages, xp in cities)

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July 1, 2012 1:51:18 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Hi heaven mate.
Your list is great, but I do not agree with all the stuffs, while 1/3 of your ideas are great, (ok siege is not a new idea, but its enough) I think you are missing the bar from what makes me prefer FE to other games.

2: Dungeons and Other planes of existence: I can wonder why everyone feel the need to implement these, in warlock I think theyre weird. and usually, theyre just annoying.
I kind of liked the plane of "Myrror" in Master of Magic because it was the "High magical" version of the world, and was a similar world where you could live and stuff like that, but I feel no need to have more planes, or dungeons or stuff like that in games, usually its just another clonky feature.


3: Naval warfare: The fact that water and mountains makes 2 kind of boundaries in the game is really nice, I really like when the world makes a couple of natural chokepoints and want to see more games that do this, so few other games similar to Elemental do this in a way that cant be ignored.
Civ series: We are going to use boats to ignore the water. is a great example.
Right now there can come theoretical battles over certain chokepoints where I have to lead my armies around the mountain to get through the heavily defended border (when combat gets a little more serious)


4: Crafting: While I really liked the weapon crafting in Master of Magic, I think any item crafting that includes a random generator is a Really Bad Idea and I hope they do not include that in the game. I would still wish to be able to have more enchanted weapons, or a weapon enchanting system for heroes.


5: Independent city states: If you include this, please avoid the module used in civ 5, its terrible and both me and the ones I know that play civ 5 hates it to death -.- . Especially the point that you cant raze the cities down and create a "Perfect" land of harmony and nonsense like that

6 and 1 are spot on though, and I hope they fiddle  for tactical combat more. I really enjoyed seeing alot of cool ideas with the heroes 6 tactical combat, its just a shame that heroes 6 logs me out of my account once in a while making the game unplayable.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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July 1, 2012 2:39:03 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

1: Sieges aren't my top priority, but otherwise agree with OP.

2: I have doubts.  Liked the alternate planes / reverse-side-of-the-world in MoM and AoW:SM.  DON'T like caves & dungeon-crawling in general.

3: Some kind of boats would be nice, but not top priority.  I'd be more interesting in better economic use for coastal squares, like fisheries & harbors.

4:Crafting was one of my favorite parts of MoM & AoW:SM, so it was high on my wish-list earlier in the beta.  But FE has a much more variety of stuff, so now it drops to medium priority.

5: I miss my Snathi     (for those who haven't played GalCiv 2, cute killer carnivore squirrels).  Minor factions would be a big plus, especially if we can get bigger maps to put them on.

6: No special opinion.

Mostly I'd like bug fixes, improved diplomacy, etc.

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July 1, 2012 2:44:26 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

1) Sieges - ballistas could have huge armor piercing bonuses, catapults would have the splash effect upon attacking, traps could provide poisoned attack & hold unit for a turn (might have to have the assassin's tools trait?), monster pits could have monsters, moats could provide slow movement & possibly a monster or two, walls for archers to stand on or archer towers

2) Just Yes

3) Naval warfare - brings into play Islands with hidden treasures, sea monsters, 'random storms' that sink ships & all kinds of goodness

    ohh, just imagine a port battle seige vs naval

4) Crafting - Could obtain different parts of different creatures to throw in as well (some part of a troll would give a weapon/armor regeneration, part of an ogre could add strength/endurance/hit points or something and so on)

5) Independent city states - I've been pushing for all kinds of different forms of this from independents creating/growing into additional camps all linked together, to adding the negotiation ability to custom wildlands

6) Tactical stuff - & lots of it

7) Bring back tha TiTans in interesting ways, I've been promoting a couple of ways through quests & such that would add considerable panic to mid-late/late game, each of the how ever many TiTans there are would have there own 'super' trait that seperates them from the others

8) Dynasties - Marry a daughter off, obtain a permenant alliance with said faction (No more "we be blood brothers, until the clock runs out that is"), perhaps make them breakable but you gain a +5 or something to relations that would make it an extremly rare event

9) Hotseat - this is where I get others to love Elemental as much as I

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July 1, 2012 3:05:14 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I pretty much agree totally with Heavenfall. Only the most important thing on my list would Ocean travel.

I just really want to sail around the world of Elemental discovering new lands, playing pirate, fighting sea monsters(a slightly modified Abeix would make a great sea serpent battle), harvesting sea resources, going on nautical quests, and etc.

Crafting and City States may not fit Elemental very well. Maybe if city states were more like refugee camps.

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July 1, 2012 4:04:18 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ,

6) Lots of new tactical stuff. I know this is vague, but look at Might and Magic Heroes 6, it is pure candy in tactical battles. The basic unit for the Haven faction has a trait which makes the unit redirect 50% of all damage suffered by adjacent friendlies to itself. That trait alone is better (more interesting) than 90% of the traits in FE. That's just an example, but to me, the organic way forward for making units while keeping them designable is mutually exclusive traits. The traits would go into three categories: special actions (sunder armor, scare horses), defensive properties (fire resistance, regenerate in battle), utility (low wages, xp in cities)

 

A readjustment in damage calculations for army stacks.

FE's current system measures X amount of damage successfully dealt always equals Y number of units per stack are dead, no exceptions.  That includes magical damage too.  The problem is distribution of the damage dealt.  If I dealt 10 damage against ten units, should two of them always fall dead 100% of the time or should there be a possibly of only one dropping dead with five others wounded etc?

Being able to spread the damage between total HP and individual targets in a stack opens up a whole new paradigm of possibilities.  If you still don't understand think Japanese Bushido ability from Civilization 5.

 

Hopefully this would balance the archery weapons and add diversity to the magic damage spells too.  Some cause more total HP damage overall while others fell more targets for less damage.  Heroes would be unaffected because they are not stacks.

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July 1, 2012 10:10:32 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Stealth units both strategic and tactical,

more spells, randomized spell option at start up to make attaining a spell rank more exciting and to encourage spell trading along with that awesome item auction/global item marketplace idea that Satrhan mentioned in the beta 4 post comments:   http://forums.elementalgame.com/427621/page/3/#replies

more summons, and more fantastic creatures in general.  A totem creature for each faction?  An option for a familiar or loyal animal companion at game start?  A quest or three for different recruitable heroes and allies like the Dragon's Egg.

 crafting with dragon scales, spider venom sacs etc. as per Grizzlyloins' suggestion.

Flying units that can carry an army, flying units as scouts, flying units that ignore city defenses if no archers or siege weapons are present.

Earth elementals that actually travel underground to reach their targets... or Great Wyrms from MOM...

Creatures that dampen enemy magic (increase mana cost for spells), or give area of effect bonuses to allied troops.  Units that can "pin down" or hold an enemy unit, units that can randomly boost or lower initiative during a battle to reflect shifting morale.

All of the OP's and GrizzlyLoins ideas.

Tarth should have a trait that lets them switch from ranged to melee weapons as desired during the battle.

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July 3, 2012 3:14:35 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Heavenfall, all of the above are good ideas EXCEPT for the extra planes/underground addition.

 

Even in the holy Master of Magic, where the additional plane was BEST implemented, it was somewhat tacked on and provided a wildly unfair advantage to the person who was able to capitalize on it.

 

Giant area, rich with magic-enhancing goodies, special races, and goodie huts. Difficult to gain access to, and easy to prevent access via spells or military might.

 

In other games, it created extra work with little payoff to use OR created a significant disadvantage for players who elected to avoid working in the other areas of play. I forget the name, but there was a 4x game devoted to mech combat that had an air and underground aspect and it was PARTICULARLY poorly implemented. Basically forced you to create three fronts of defense but still only be offensive on one.

 

Not saying it can't be done, but I would be VERY hesitant to include any system of this nature until absolutely ALL other significant weaknesses in the overall game design are totally resolved.

 

 

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July 3, 2012 7:52:22 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Actually the thing I am most interested in for the expansion is less resource consumption for my PC. The larger the map I can play to the end, the more longevity the game has for me. Also, AI work is never finished in games like this.

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July 3, 2012 9:58:15 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

1> Seiges:  I like some of what Heaven suggests in terms of building defenses.  I'd be reluctant to add seiges if they slow play down too much.

2> Caves Dungeons:  Isn't that what Wildlands are?  Seriously though.  If adding dungeons or other planes makes the map effectively larger while keeping the memory footprint smaller, I'm for it.  But I agree with the comment above that it needs to be balanced.  In MoM, I rarely even visited the alternate plane. 

3> Naval Warfare:  I haven't really missed it.

4> Crafting:  One of the best parts of GalCivII was designing your own ships.  You can design units here, true but somehow it lacks the creativity of ship building in GCII.  Crafting magic items could be a nice touch if it is interesting and not just a time sink.  But getting the AI to use it properly so the game remains balanced...  I'm not sure how feasible that is and that has to be the biggest consideration. 

5> Independent City-States:  YES!!!

6> Tactical Stuff: I'm on the fence on this...  Right now, tactical battles are primarily designed to be quick and I think I mostly like that.  But if tactical battles are made really interesting, I might enjoy it more.  So I guess I'm saying that this one would require a philosophy change in the design. 

 

And Sean, I'm with you!  Larger maps please!!

 

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July 3, 2012 11:01:50 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I would also like to maybe see an expanded tech tree that starts to introduce steam punk technology. I think that would be very cool.

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July 4, 2012 1:43:10 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums
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July 4, 2012 3:32:36 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

haha reading through these replys, obviously im kind of a critic of alot of things , I do agree with Sean on the resources though

I do find it quite interesting to see how people feel about these things

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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July 4, 2012 12:46:45 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Percopiusmax,
Metal Fatique

 

Yep. That was it. Beautiful example of how great concepts can totally ruin a game that they don't fit into properly.

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July 4, 2012 1:10:48 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Ive just been playing endless space and they have a button we need!

Basicaly at the start of the turn it makes all the moves you have qued up. So all your troops move, fight get engaged and so on. Allowing you to then progress onto all the new orders you want to do this turn.

We REALLY, yes I shouted, REALLY need this button.

 

Kalmfist

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July 4, 2012 2:47:44 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I suppose we should add Capitar and that other faction to the list. Maybe Capitar is planning to return by boat?

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July 4, 2012 4:02:19 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting seanw3,
I suppose we should add Capitar and that other faction to the list. Maybe Capitar is planning to return by boat?

 

I don't have any idea at all who you think might want that other faction to come back.

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July 4, 2012 6:09:49 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

BTW ... Where is Joasoze's comment on this thread ? ... he must have the day off ... do they celebrate the 4th of July in Norway ?      ... too bad, I often enjoy his comments ... 

 

You have started an interesting Discussion thread, Heavenfall!  You have obviously put a lot of thought into it; and there are some interesting, and well-developed ideas in here.  Furthermore, as Kongdej pointed out (Reply #13) it is also interesting to see what other Beta-testers think about these ideas, and their variations on these ideas, and their own original ideas too.  So, this is a dandy thread, all around ...

That said, I find myself most in agreement with Seanw3's reply #9:

Quoting seanw3,
Actually the thing I am most interested in for the expansion is less resource consumption for my PC. The larger the map I can play to the end, the more longevity the game has for me. Also, AI work is never finished in games like this.

I would also like to be able to play on medium size maps, without late-game slowing; and I would like to be able to play on large size maps, without having Out-of-memory crashes when I try to save a late-game.  The other thing, is that I already find E:FE to be very "Feature-rich", and sometimes "Feature-unique" for a well-developed 4x game.  In other words, a lot of other things could be added; but I see relatively little need for most of them.  To take sea-movement/naval-warfare as an example, a few months ago I would still have tended to want that; but I have since come around to the view that I don't really miss it.  I think of the Elemental world as having poisoned seas (or something else), so that I just view this as an inherent part of this world - not a limitation per se, but a defining characteristic ... Also (as Kongdej again pointed out) I have come to really like the randomly-generated E:FE maps, with their frequent geographical choke-points.  They just feel like a natural (and "right") part of the ruined world that belongs in E:FE.

Okay ... I do have one feature request of my own.  I would like to have the ability to create my own maps.  I would prefer such a utility to be much like the one in Civ IV, where you can start with (randomized) templates and modify them, or create an original map entirely from scratch. 

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July 4, 2012 10:15:13 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

A minor tweak I would like to see is having the faction symbol on a banner (larger or at ratio to the figure) behind the sov when you found your first city.

 

For naval stuff I would like to see some kind of use for coastal tiles (fishing, gathering).  For anything beyond that unless you can come up with a satisfying naval combat Id use it as path of advancement for a financially strong coastal city.  The oceans beyond x spaces from the shore could also be made more treacherous either with monsters or more difficult terain (requiring a more advanced tech/magic) or impassable.  Or by keeping them along the shore it leaves them with restricted mobility.  It may also allow sea type wild lands.

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July 5, 2012 9:01:38 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

My list would contain:

- Naval vessels. (If only trade vessels between cities with docks)
- Upgradeble forts. (Already being implemented) 
- Special resources that allows a special district (four title building) that can be upgraded to enhance the economie and maybe produce tradeble resources. Think: Silk, Cotton, Dyes (could let you further upgrade the silk and cotton industry), Jewels, Oils (Lanters oil and stuff). Something to make "special commerce cities."
-  Explorable caves where you can't see more than 3/4 sqaures in front of you. (Not another plane but a special location, think about this as a large tactical battle map.)
- Dynasties. (Duh!)
- Sieges would be nice too. (But I'd like the other things more.)
- Faction banners would be cool too. Or the possibillity of giving an overcoat to soldiers. (Giving them crest on there chests or cloacks.)
 

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July 5, 2012 11:00:18 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

My list would be:

 

1) NAVEL UNITS A MUST IN 4X GAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't understand why people would not want this. And sea monsters of coarse. As it stands the maps feel very small and underwelming.  And with the naval units should come navy combat (Tactical Battles.)

2) Other worlds like in AOW or MOM (and even Warlock) would be great (Again I fail to understand why anyone would not want this in the game.) These types of additions would make the worlds more Epic (which the game currently is not)

3) Dungeons would be nice to have. Perhaps a modern version of AOW1 dungeons and Crypts.

4) Sieges or just City/fort combat (Ala AOW: Shadow Magic)  Current City attack tactical combat in game is....Well there really isn't any.

5) Crafting ------ Love crafting so yes would be nice in the game

6) I like the Independant city state concept but I would like for them to be able to expand. (let this be an option you can select when starting the map.)

 Opps almost forgot

Dynesties

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July 5, 2012 11:29:08 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Bellack,
My list would be:
1) NAVEL UNITS A MUST IN 4X GAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't understand why people would not want this. And sea monsters of coarse. As it stands the maps feel very small and underwelming.  And with the naval units should come navy combat (Tactical Battles.)

Well, it was pretty boring and useless. While playing Elemental: War of Magic, I never used the harbour or ships that the game had. Just so you know.  ^^

Buth then again, there where no separate continents. The AI couldn't cope with naval units.

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July 5, 2012 12:29:24 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Bellack,

1) NAVEL UNITS A MUST IN 4X GAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't understand why people would not want this. And sea monsters of coarse. As it stands the maps feel very small and underwelming.  And with the naval units should come navy combat (Tactical Battles.)

Why I don't feel I need it, is it is to me a redundant extra level of the map that just illiminates alot of choke points, and for little gameplay specific reasons.
I would much rather see underground levels or other pocket planes of existence since they usually have a couple of entry points on the map, so you can guard against them.
Also please use a little less exclamation marks, I am touchy.... Thanks in advance!

Ps. we can discuss this, but if you want a further discussion, we could take it to another thread to not high-jack too much .

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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July 5, 2012 2:48:45 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Naval units in 4x games is a very fine line. I like them, personally, but have never seen them really well implemented due to numerous constraints.

 

Functionally, they are difficult to implement in a game because they complicate a lot of the inherent strategies involved in land terrain, and in doing so, the AI has a really hard time using them to their fullest effect.

 

Additionally, if implemented in a more limited fashion as in E:WoM, they become difficult enough to capitalize on that the investment does not even equal the reward, let alone exceed it (only on beaches?, pah). E:WoM had naval stuff way too separate from the rest of the game to make it at all compelling or useful.

 

Civ V does a decent job of that by making the transition from land to/from water take a turn, but it still encounters the AI which really doesn't have a great handle on how to properly exploit it.

 

If we can have the naval aspect of FE feel natural and be relatively well supported by the AI, go ahead and work on it, but there are enough other aspects of the game that really want attention that I would be pretty upset to see Naval stuff added instead of taking due care with polishing off the Champion trait advancement or Magic aspects of the game.

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July 5, 2012 5:39:21 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Malsqueek,
Naval units in 4x games is a very fine line. I like them, personally, but have never seen them really well implemented due to numerous constraints.

This is a good reason to skip a lot of additional good ideas, you have to use a rather substantial large amount of putting it into a game, and ok its for a sequel, but all the ideas here will make a lot of sequels .

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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July 5, 2012 6:50:25 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think we're just rehashing the same ideas that have existed forever... Let's hear somebody think outside of the box and come up with something really extraordinary.

 

 

 

 

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